How many brahmos does India have and how we defend against this ?

[nahtanbob]

Is there any open source intelligence on the Russian claim that the Tomahawk/JASSM attacks on Syria were partially stopped?
How about Russia's own Kalibre 3M54AE missile attacks in Syria?
Russia used air, submarines, and ship launched versions of this missile. The Kalibre maintains a maneuverable terrain hugging sub-sonic mode for most its flight path but goes supersonic and electronically passive mode in its terminal stage of its flight path to avoid being jammed or shot down by anti-missile defenses.
Russia has used these missiles against the Al Nusra front in Syria. Once again there are conflicting reports of its accuracy and immunity from CIWS, or Patriot SAM batteries. Though these missiles have been used at least 15 times since it first saw action in 2015 the largest number used was a total of 26 missiles fired from air and surface ships into Daesh positions around Aleppo on 7th October 2015. Russia revealed videos of the bombing but the US claimed that these video were fake not a single one of the 26 missiles fired found their targets. All either went astray or some that did reach the target zone were destroyed by the Al Nusra Front and Free Syrian Army ground based air defenses.
Don't know whom to believe.

Tomahawk is a long range subsonic missile. The disadvantage is that it is slow. the advantages are its range and proven technology. It is 40 years old technology. It is good enough for beating countries like Syria.

 

[Hephaestus]

A cyber attack would cripple India completely. I believe that is what China plans. We should also develop such a capability. A Pakistani made the first computer virus. We can do it.

If the PAF can gain air superiority, quickly taking out Brahmos vehicles/stores should be easy. A properly executed,
larger scale version of Operation Chengiz Khan (1971) will devastate the IAF:
View attachment 693787
Moreover, they can then focus on attacking Indian ships (which carry Brahmos) along with PN instead of focusing on stopping the IAF.

In terms of detection, Brahmos is easier to defend against than stealthy missiles like Babur/Tomahawk. It is fast and generates a lot of heat around it. However, we do need a good early warning system in place as the time window for stopping this missile is short due to its speed. IMO we should get long range SAMs from China or something similar. If not long range, at least high end medium/short range ones around major cities and nuclear facilities.

We can use MRBMs in retaliation like we were about to last year when India was about to launch Brahmos strikes.

We could possibly use militant groups to pre emptively attack brahmos missiles, as India has tried with our military assets.

If all conventional methods fail we can always use Nasr.

ham ko ma alūm hai jannat Pakistan kī haqīqat lekin

dil ke Khush rakhne ko 'ġhālib' ye ḳhayāl achchhā hai

 

[Tumba]

3 Mountain Strike corps. roughly equals to 700 deployed Brahmos BLK 3s...

More than sufficient for the needs for Chinese assets deployed in occupied Tibet...

 

[Baibars_1260]

Tomahawk is a long range subsonic missile. The disadvantage is that it is slow. the advantages are its range and proven technology. It is 40 years old technology. It is good enough for beating countries like Syria.

True,
We were discussing the failure of interception of the Block IV variants by Russian crewed anti-cruise missile defenses. The Russians were using S-300 systems ( roughly equivalent to the HQ-16/LY-80 LOMADS)
The Tomahawk versions used in Syria were the latest Block IV upgrades. The models used were.
RGM/UGM-109E Tomahawk Land Attack Missile (TLAM Block IV) – an improved version of the TLAM-C.

In addition to Tomahawks the JASSM was also used for the first tine on 14 April 2018 missile strikes against Syria during the Syrian Civil War. 19 JASSMs were launched from two USAF B-1 Lancers as part of strikes against three Syrian chemical weapons manufacturing factories. All 19 JASSM missiles were fired at the Barzah Research Center, which was destroyed in the strike.
Russians claimed to have received two unexploded missiles recovered by the Syrian Arab Army. These were displayed on Russian state media four days after the attack.
Once again Buk M2E and S-300 systems failed to stop the JASSMs.
Both the TLAM C Block IV and the JASSMs were not stopped.
Russia has since moved some S-400 batteries into Syria to protect its own bases.
So the conclusion is that even subsonic missile attacks are difficult or impossible to stop.
Which means that the Ra'ad can be used as a retaliation for a Brahmos attack.,

 

[maxpayne]

not more than 500. producing and maintaining such systems are difficult

 

[Tumba]

not more than 500. producing and maintaining such systems are difficult

Wont be a surprise if total Brahmose stock is closer to 5000 with almost 2 decade of production capabilities and 3 production lines.
India has 6 strike corps.. 3 land 3 mountain... each has need for atleast 300 ready to fire and double that in stock..
If we count Airforce and Navy the number grows closer to 10000 ultimately...

On above of that new versions keep on coming which will ensure more production lines are added

 

[nahtanbob]

True,
We were discussing the failure of interception of the Block IV variants by Russian crewed anti-cruise missile defenses. The Russians were using S-300 systems ( roughly equivalent to the HQ-16/LY-80 LOMADS)
The Tomahawk versions used in Syria were the latest Block IV upgrades. The models used were.
RGM/UGM-109E Tomahawk Land Attack Missile (TLAM Block IV) – an improved version of the TLAM-C.

In addition to Tomahawks the JASSM was also used for the first tine on 14 April 2018 missile strikes against Syria during the Syrian Civil War. 19 JASSMs were launched from two USAF B-1 Lancers as part of strikes against three Syrian chemical weapons manufacturing factories. All 19 JASSM missiles were fired at the Barzah Research Center, which was destroyed in the strike.
Russians claimed to have received two unexploded missiles recovered by the Syrian Arab Army. These were displayed on Russian state media four days after the attack.
Once again Buk M2E and S-300 systems failed to stop the JASSMs.
Both the TLAM C Block IV and the JASSMs were not stopped.
Russia has since moved some S-400 batteries into Syria to protect its own bases.
So the conclusion is that even subsonic missile attacks are difficult or impossible to stop.
Which means that the Ra'ad can be used as a retaliation for a Brahmos attack.,

Relatively Russia has small military footprint in Syria. The main mission in Syria is to fight the rebels. Russia is providing air power for that mission. They are not expecting the Syrian rebels to fire Tomahawks at them.

 

[Capt. Karnage]

Hi,
After, ahem a look (very quick) on the internet I was able to find weird claims on the operational numbers of Brhamos which is 14000 which is bit unrealistic as Pakistan has been producing baktar Shikan in Pakistan and have only been able to produce 30000+ in the same time period. The later is an ATGM with far less complex system. Hence the claim seems a bit grandiosity. My research led me to This article which I believe most people use to determine numbers


“the Russians or Indian military.

We can guestimate it though.

When the production was started in 2005, the news was that about 2000 would be made in 10 years. That should have been complete by now.

Now, the nation has added 2 more production lines bringing the capacity to 3 lines while increasing the indigenization levels. We can assume 3 times the capacity. This means the last 5 years we should have made another 3000 of new generation variants.

So a total of 4500 - 5500 would be a good estimate. Most of these would be land based variants. Only 20% of that might be naval variants.

In 2016 there was a news of ramping production to 100 missiles a month. By 2018 the third production line was added. So current production should be 150 - 200 missiles a month. That's 1800 - 2400 missiles a year. In 5 years that will translate to 9000 - 12000 missiles. That's the second most aggressive manufacturing in Indian defense second only to Pinaka MLRS at 5000 rockets a year since 2005. India must have produced over 80,000 rockets by now, but most of the initial rockets are either used or expired. Rocket propellant as well as warhead are primarily chemicals that means they come with an expiration date i.e a use by dd/mm/yyyy. Usually 8 - 10 years for open units like 80 mm rockets and MLRS rockets while those in casister like brahmos have 15 + years.

There was also news last year of “service life extension” for brahmos which means a test and replace of expired chemicals and batteries. Warhead I believe are also replaced.”

article 2:

It is difficult to give you number of Brahmos which are currently NOT Inducted - but i will give you the exact figure of the amount of Brahmos India and russia Intend to make, as well as the details and numbers of Brahmos currently inducted in Indian and Russian armed forces.

Before i present you the Statistics , let me give a brief introduction about Brahmos missiles.

The BrahMos is a short range ramjet supersonic cruise missile that can be launched from Submarine , ships , land or Aircraft. It is being developed by Russian Federations NPO Mashinostroeyenia & India’s Defense research & development Organisation(DRDO)

Russia and India have decided that they will be producing around 2000 Brahmos super sonic cruise missiles in next 10 years of which around 50% can be exported to strategic partners.

At this point Indian armed forces are the only ones where Brahmos has been inducted below are the required details.

1. Indian Navy (200 Brahmos - 100 live and 100 as back up inventory)

As of today ,Brahmos has been inducted in 12 warships of the Indian Navy.

A) Rajput-class destroyers -INS Rajput has four Brahmos missiles in 2 twin inclined launchers with in 2003. - (4 missiles ). INS Ranvir and INS Ranvijay were armed with one 8-cell Brahmos VLS launcher. - 16 missiles

B) Talwar-class frigate –The three later ships, INS Teg, INS Tarkash, INS Trikand were armed with one 8-cell Brahmos VLS launcher. - 24 missiles

C) Shivalik-class frigate –The three frigates in this class are armed with one 8-cell Brahmos VLS launcher. - 24 missiles

D) Kolkata-class destroyer (two active and one more under construction) –armed with two 8-cell Brahmos VLS launchers. - 16 missiles

E) Visakhapatnam-class destroyer (building)-Armed with two 8-cell Brahmos land attack and anti ship VLS launchers. - 16 missiles

2. Indian Army ( total of 288 Brahmos live plus 288 Back up inventory)

Indian Army has inducted 1 regiment of Brahmos Block 1 and 2 regiments of Brahmos Block 2& 1 very recent Brahmos Block 3, each regiment has 72 Brahmos Missiles

A) 861 Regiment (BrahMos Block I in Rajasthan) - 72 missiles

B) 862 Regiment (BrahMos Block II, in Rajasthan) - 72 missiles

C) 863 Regiment (BrahMos Block II, in Rajasthan) - 72 missiles

D) 864 Regiment (BrahMos Block III, in Arunachal Pradesh) - 72 missiles

Indian air force has not yet inducted any Brahmos variants , how ever it will very soon be inducting Air variant of the missile for its Super Sukhoi or Su-30 Mki

Russian Navy has intimated that due to the size and hull specifications of the BrahMos, they will not be able to accommodate Brahmos in any of its ships.

Russian Airforce too will soon induct Air version of Brahmos in its Su-30Sm fighter.

I hope my article helped you in some way , please do give me feedback and point my areas of improvement.

Regards,

Puneet

Founder - War-Wiki [1]

Footnotes



not believing anything provided by Indian media I would say they produce about 300-600 missiles a year with a unit price of 5 million resulting in a cost of about 1.5-3 billion a year meaning spend 22.5 - 45 billion us $ with Russia taking 15- 30 billion of this cash lol.

so really they have around 6000 missiles.

My ask is

1)what do you think the number of missiles and delivery systems ?

my guess is 3000 operational with ships using about 400 of these only destroyers can carry these. Of the180 ( minus the 3 PAF shot down) results in 50 aircraft varying 3-4 in a sortie resulting in a need 400 again

and finally 8 Indian refiners with 72 missiles each resulting in about. 1400 missiles needed for multiple strikes

2) question how does Pakistan defend against these, as this will affect our ability to defend our fixed assets like airbase, ports and supply and repair depots

k

Your estimate about the numbers is total bs.
And about the later part, your best bet is to prevent it from launching, if launched your assets will be history. This is the accuracy you are dealing with.

 

[Khan vilatey]

Your estimate about the numbers is total bs.
And about the later part, your best bet is to prevent it from launching, if launched your assets will be history. This is the accuracy you are dealing with.

Okay have at it hos, can you provide a better estimate?

secondly yes the original post is all about accuracy of Russian weapons even in the hands of incompetent Indians being a mortal threat to our assets. We need to find ways to defend against it. I believe our solution would involve jamming and taking these units out with our vastly technicaly and numerically superior armed drone program.

k

 

[Capt. Karnage]

Okay have at it hos, can you provide a better estimate?

secondly yes the original post is all about accuracy of Russian weapons even in the hands of incompetent Indians being a mortal threat to our assets. We need to find ways to defend against it. I believe our solution would involve jamming and taking these units out with our vastly technicaly and numerically superior armed drone program.

k

Wow like always yet another intelligent post from you. Numbers is a national secret so no one can tell that to you.
Secondly this missiles has been majorly developed by the Indian scientists and now even the Russians seeker has been replaced with the Indian one
Thirdly you are calling those incompetent who beat you in all four wars, so astute.

And you think you can jam this missile and defend against it with your Chinese drones? Seriously dude I hope pakistani military brass don't have geniuses like you or you won't have any military to speak of.

 

[Khan vilatey]

Wow like always yet another intelligent post from you. Numbers is a national secret so no one can tell that to you.
Secondly this missiles has been majorly developed by the Indian scientists and now even the Russians seeker has been replaced with the Indian one
Thirdly you are calling those incompetent who beat you in all four wars, so astute.

And you think you can jam this missile and defend against it with your Chinese drones? Seriously dude I hope pakistani military brass don't have geniuses like you or you won't have any military to speak of.

Lol so no real facts empty bluster as always..... are you saying that the incompetent india was unable to take over and destroy a 4 times weaker advisory like Pakistan pre nuclear power ? After 4 attempts !


India is so weak that it can’t even stop a small country like Pakistan from killing its troops on Indian occupied territory and people with impunity, allegedly attack her parliament, allegedly close its main city for a week and more. When India tries to attack her in retaliation they get bombed by Pakistani and lose 6 aircraft in the process, 4 su-30s , one mig 21 and a helicopter .....

Seems india is only filled with bluster

k

 

[Capt. Karnage]

Lol so no real facts empty bluster as always..... are you saying that the incompetent india was unable to take over and destroy a 4 times weaker advisory like Pakistan pre nuclear power ? After 4 attempts !


India is so weak that it can’t even stop a small country like Pakistan from killing its troops on Indian occupied territory and people with impunity, allegedly attack her parliament, allegedly close its main city for a week and more. When India tries to attack her in retaliation they get bombed by Pakistani and lose 6 aircraft in the process, 4 su-30s , one mig 21 and a helicopter .....

Seems india is only filled with bluster

k

Seriously dude you are next level it's pointless to argue with you.

 

[Khan vilatey]

Seriously dude you are next level it's pointless to argue with you.

Is it pointless or are you out of arguments.....the problem with your post was that it was mired in absolutes, Bluster and misguided patriotism and a bit of feeling of superiority based on size and scale. The puzzling part ofcourse is my argument that a power so much smaller has been able to contain a bigger power. This is very similar to other such events like Isreal surviving in a hostile Nebihourhood.

People in India who ruled before Modi understood the limits they had and invested in attempting to create a tolerant society in India. We envied this for a long time as we knew as long as India has these ideals Pakistan could not defeat her. Now that India has allowed its baser instincts to prevail we will defeat you, inshallah break you into smaller pieces . Not because of guns or bullets but because our ideals will not match, we reluctantly decided to join a superpower China which is now invested in our future for its own survival. If the Indians had not been so bigoted and worked on peace even if it meant giving some land we would have become part of the Indian value chain ensuring India became a superpower. It will now never be able to because of a tiny backwater country like Pakistan

k

 

[maxpayne]

it is very difficult to build and maintain these sophisticated missiles. Plus induction is very new. Most of the missiles will be In IN

Wont be a surprise if total Brahmose stock is closer to 5000 with almost 2 decade of production capabilities and 3 production lines.
India has 6 strike corps.. 3 land 3 mountain... each has need for atleast 300 ready to fire and double that in stock..
If we count Airforce and Navy the number grows closer to 10000 ultimately...

On above of that new versions keep on coming which will ensure more production lines are added

 

[Tumba]

it is very difficult to build and maintain these sophisticated missiles. Plus induction is very new. Most of the missiles will be In IN

IN current and future needs were met and now MK1s are been replaced with longer versions.
Most numerous type currently is MK2 and soon will be taken over by MK3 before NG version comes online, both MK2 and Mk3 are land versions only.