How India lags China in submarine race

[Sarjen29]

What about the sub in subject above link.

Like i said Chiese are saying 21 days.. its good.. in PN hands it can do wonders, that's why we Indians always say the only potent system in PN hands that IA see as a big threat is your AIP equipped subs i think Agusta right. But for long rang deployment for an ssk is very difficult work in war time.
@al_asad_al_mulk

they will not be able to travell fully submerged and Mallaca straight is shallow water.. in a war time atleast 4-5 p-8s will be in the sky while our ASW designed ships with helis.. will be difficult job.... on the other hand PN Ships can utilize the time, stay under water and pck the target

 

[al_asad_al_mulk]

Like i said Chiese are saying 21 days.. its good.. in PN hands it can do wonders, that's why we Indians always say the only potent system in PN hands that IA see as a big threat is your AIP equipped subs i think Agusta right. But for long rang deployment for an ssk is very difficult work in war time

Again without links anyways my argument is that if we are buying our officers in charge already inspected and trialed subject subs. 5 billion USD is a big amount for us we can't waste it. Pakistan have a history of buying most potent equipment with respect to their defense budget. I don't think so Indian Navy follow such standards because i am aware of lots of looses due to fire and explosions.

 

[Sarjen29]

Again without links anyways my argument is that if we are buying our officers in charge already inspected and trialed subject subs. 5 billion USD is a big amount for us we can't waste it. Pakistan have a history of buying most potent equipment with respect to their defense budget. I don't think so Indian Navy follow such standards because i am aware of lots of looses due to fire and explosions.

Dude.. again i'm not saying its a bad sub, i never said that,, but it also has its short comings.. what i'm arguing is totally different than what you're saying anyway congrats to your new subs and navy

FYI our sub accident was not because of poor standards of subs.. it was the lack of battery which was negleted by our stupidest defence minister. Google about kilo class subs you'll know the potentials of it

 

[Oldman1]

And they will obviously be unopposed by the massively more powerful Chinese navy right?

Right. Think about how the U.S. Navy had a hard time finding just one diesel/electric boat which took pics of American carriers in their periscope. Just a couple of boats in that narrow area is enough to scare anybody off. No ships will go through. How will the Chinese navy deal with that?

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

OK @AUSTERLITZ I found the "video" you were talking about.

The video was of the submarine surfacing as it was about to DOCK in Karachi port. Not midway through the journey as you claimed. It was actually in the same link:

Exclusive: Chinese submarine lurked past Indian waters, docked in Karachi - India Today



So do you have that video of when our AIP sub was forced to "surface often" midway through the journey to Karachi? Obviously it would have to surface to dock about Karachi port, but you said it had to surface "often" midway through the journey to recharge its batteries.

Wouldn't that ruin our sale of AIP submarines? Why then, did Pakistan then order 8 with Thailand following suit?

Are you making personal attacks against me, for your own mistake?

China's subs in Indian Ocean no worry for India - Opinion - Chinadaily.com.cn

See for urself ,ur own chinese newspaper clearly mentions her surfacing around malacca.She probably did so more than once.This is because her normal speed is 16-18 knots.The distance from IOR to hainan island along the route is thousands of miles.
Just so you understand,the mode of operation of diesel and AIP.Previously u could only submerge using ur batteries in a diesel submarines,batteries need recharging.In ww2 recharging frequency would be once every 2 days generally.Now once a week for a non-AIP submarine.
Now what AIP does is complement the batteries and allows it to stay submerged without using batteries.This increases submerged duration from 1 week in general,to 3 weeks more or less.
But here u make serious miscalculations,when u are using AIP u can use maybe 1/4th of the submarines actual speed-generally a pathetic 4knts/5knts.So in this state sure it can stay hidden longer but its almost useless as hunter against normal ships of speeds over 20 knots in high seas/or making a long travel.But this is ideal for ambushing nearby ships by laying in ambush on the seabed or moving very slightly submerged silently,a great tactic in shallow waters .
So if u use AIP on chinese sub on a non stop travel to IOR u won't really make much difference,u increase non surface time by 2 weeks but reduce speed by 1/4th in the process so it will take much much longer to cover distance .Even with AIP any sub will have to surface for ops in IOR near indian waters,also u better hope to have a nearby refuel port because otherwise its a one way trip for a SSK from china because even the latest yuan has an endurance of 2 months only.This one took close to a month to get into IOR .U use AIP speed 1/4th.Then u either get refuelling somewhere or its one way trip,because best yuan's endurance can take is one straight trip and then straight back-and pushing it.None for any sustained ops or duration spent in indian ocean ,making the whole exercise pointless.
Understand here endurance doesn't mean time it remains fully submerged.Endurance means time till food and fuel stocks last.
Continous submerged time is generally 1 week for ssks,and 2 more AIPs.But in AIP mode ur movement is slowed to a crawl,almost static so its useless for long range deployments.There is a reason russia/usa continues to make enormously costly SSNs like yasen and virginia in numbers which maybe 5 times as costly as diesel subs despite AIP being around.Because of these limitations.

Now onto sale of ur submarines.unrelated.Because pakistan and thailand will operate them from their nearby shores-short range,role they are designed for.Being coastal water navies these modern submarines are cheap too and will help their navies greatly.It is completely unrelated to fantasy of chinese diesel subamrines operating undetected travelling all the way from china theory that you are propounding.
Don't remember making a serious personal insult,may have gotten heated during discussion earlier.Apologize if u took that to heart.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

China's subs in Indian Ocean no worry for India - Opinion - Chinadaily.com.cn

See for urself ,ur own chinese newspaper clearly mentions her surfacing around malacca.She probably did so more than once.This is because her normal speed is 16-18 knots.The distance from IOR to hainan island along the route is thousands of miles.
Just so you understand,the mode of operation of diesel and AIP.Previously u could only submerge using ur batteries in a diesel submarines,batteries need recharging.In ww2 recharging frequency would be once every 2 days generally.Now once a week for a non-AIP submarine.
Now what AIP does is complement the batteries and allows it to stay submerged without using batteries.This increases submerged duration from 1 week in general,to 3 weeks more or less.
But here u make serious miscalculations,when u are using AIP u can use maybe 1/4th of the submarines actual speed-generally a pathetic 4knts/5knts.So in this state sure it can stay hidden longer but its almost useless as hunter against normal ships of speeds over 20 knots in high seas/or making a long travel.But this is ideal for ambushing nearby ships by laying in ambush on the seabed or moving very slightly submerged silently,a great tactic in shallow waters .
So if u use AIP on chinese sub on a non stop travel to IOR u won't really make much difference,u increase non surface time by 2 weeks but reduce speed by 1/4th in the process so it will take much much longer to cover distance .Even with AIP any sub will have to surface for ops in IOR near indian waters,also u better hope to have a nearby refuel port because otherwise its a one way trip for a SSK from china because even the latest yuan has an endurance of 2 months only.This one took close to a month to get into IOR .U use AIP speed 1/4th.Then u either get refuelling somewhere or its one way trip,because best yuan's endurance can take is one straight trip and then straight back-and pushing it.None for any sustained ops or duration spent in indian ocean ,making the whole exercise pointless.
Understand here endurance doesn't mean time it remains fully submerged.Endurance means time till food and fuel stocks last.
Continous submerged time is generally 1 week for ssks,and 2 more AIPs.But in AIP mode ur movement is slowed to a crawl,almost static so its useless for long range deployments.There is a reason russia/usa continues to make enormously costly SSNs like yasen and virginia in numbers which maybe 5 times as costly as diesel subs despite AIP being around.Because of these limitations.

Now onto sale of ur submarines.unrelated.Because pakistan and thailand will operate them from their nearby shores-short range,role they are designed for.Being coastal water navies these modern submarines are cheap too and will help their navies greatly.It is completely unrelated to fantasy of chinese diesel subamrines operating undetected travelling all the way from china theory that you are propounding.
Don't remember making a serious personal insult,may have gotten heated during discussion earlier.Apologize if u took that to heart.

Nope. I did read that "opinion" piece in the Chinadaily, and it is obviously referencing the submarine that docked in Sri Lanka, and it surfaced for diplomatic reasons, not the ones you stated.

Secondly you are trying to move the goalposts, here is my post that you quoted, on the first page:

Which makes it kind of funny that India is talking about blockading us at the Malacca straits. The Malacca straits are about the same distance from China as they are from India, and even our diesel-electric submarines can sail all the way to Pakistan and back.

We were talking about the Malacca straits.

You said the problem was that our diesel-electric submarines had to surface "often" to recharge their batteries to even reach the Malacca straits (thus they were not a concern), which is clearly not true since the entire point of AIP is to remain submerged for a signficiant amount of time (several weeks).

Now if what you claim is true, and our submarine had to surface "often" in order to recharge their batteries before even reaching the Malacca straits, that means our sale of AIP submarines to Pakistan and Thailand was done on false premises, since if your assertion is true then they would be no different to regular non-AIP submarines.

Yet they are still buying it, so what's going on?

You also claimed to have "video proof" of this assertion. I've been asking for this "video proof" at least 4 times now, still interested to see it. Especially in light of our submarine deals with Pakistan and Thailand, since if your assertion is true then the deals would be cancelled due to false advertising.

 

[MilSpec]

@Chinese-Dragon There is no comparison between enormous Submarine fleet of PLAN and the tiny 8-10 subs that India has.... Not sure why there are 10 pages here.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

@Chinese-Dragon There is no comparison between enormous Submarine fleet of PLAAN and the tiny 8-10 subs that India has.... Not sure why there are 10 pages here.

Just trying to figure out why Pakistan and Thailand are ordering our AIP submarines if they were no different to non-AIP submarines, that would have to "surface and recharge their batteries" multiple times before reaching the Malacca straits, making them useless there (apparently?)

Since our AIP submarines claim to have a submerged endurance of several weeks, and if that was false (and IF there is video proof as claimed) that would be a HUGE blow to our submarine sales to Pakistan and Thailand. It would basically be a non-AIP submarine pretending to be an AIP submarine, i.e. false advertising.

But they are still going ahead with it, so obviously they haven't seen this "video proof" yet? I'm interested in seeing it though, which is why I've been asking so many times for it.

 

[MilSpec]

Just trying to figure out why Pakistan and Thailand are ordering our AIP submarines if they were no different to non-AIP submarines, that would have to "surface and recharge their batteries" multiple times before reaching the Malacca straits, making them useless there (apparently?)

Since our AIP submarines claim to have a submerged endurance of several weeks, and if that was false (and IF there is video proof as claimed) that would be a HUGE blow to our submarine sales to Pakistan and Thailand. It would basically be a non-AIP submarine pretending to be an AIP submarine, i.e. false advertising.

But they are still going ahead with it, so obviously they haven't seen this "video proof" yet? I'm interested in seeing it though, which is why I've been asking so many times for it.

But then isn't it the same story with every PLA/AF/N items, specs are not easily available, test trails are not published...

On topic, there is no competition with China right now.... It just stands as a huge security threat for India.

 

[F-22Raptor]

This chart is just the imagination of some anti-China western supremacist.

Lol....that chart was provided by US Naval Intelligence. To get an idea where US nuclear subs would place on this list Early LA's would be slotted ahead of Akula l's, Improved LA's ahead of Akula ll's, and Seawolf's and Virginia's both ahead of the Severodvinsk(Yasen) class.

 

[airmarshal]

In which race is India ahead of China?

Wouldn't it be prudent to not compare India with China? It seems observers and writers of today give disproportionate amount of importance to India comparing it with China.

 

[longlong]

@Chinese-Dragon There is no comparison between enormous Submarine fleet of PLAN and the tiny 8-10 subs that India has.... Not sure why there are 10 pages here.

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions is crawling to thread 2 @page 86 and looks still young.
Who will spend years and years to talk terms and conditions for just want to buy something if he is not from lovely south Asia?

Talk, talk, talk, delay, delay, delay.
There always have enormous people with enormous free time to enjoy the daily life by endless talking.

 

[MilSpec]

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions is crawling to thread 2 @page 86 and looks still young.
Who will spend years and years to talk terms and conditions for just want to buy something if he is not from lovely south Asia?

Talk, talk, talk, delay, delay, delay.
There always have enormous people with enormous free time to enjoy the daily life by endless talking.

Not sure what you are saying... this is comparison thread, just as moot as comparing the USN against PLAN.... the answer is quite predictable.
MMRCA on the other hand has lot of value in debate on the forum.

 

[temp1994]

I guess it was a shock when a Chinese diesel-electric AIP submarine went all the way through to Pakistan without being detected once by India. And that's a diesel electric submarine.

Looks like you have no other job except being to be a low level troll, and all you 28,000 posts and five years wasted on a defence forum had not benefited even a single neuron inside your small brain.

The submarine you are ranting about is a diesel sub with submerged range of 300-400 Kms and would have to surface/rise to periscope depth to recharge its batteries by operating on diesel engine thus making in discoverable to anyone with a hydrophone in whole ocean.

And WTF do you mean by not detecting. Unless you are venturing into someone's territorial water ie 12 nautical miles from their shore (though since you are Chinese, not knowing this could be excused, as Chinese definition of territorial water is if some non-descript fisherman scanned a piece of land in that area over the horizon during chowmein dynasty's time), no Navy has the causes-belli to interdict your submarine. Hence even if it is transmitting its location on to a cable TV channel, no one could do anything about it.So reaching Karachi from Hainan using Diesel engine is not a great feat.


And how do you know it was not detected by India? India ,even if it would had detected that submarine, could not had done anything since your subs are free to travel anywhere during peacetime. Though, since your submarine would have been operating on Diesel ,rather than batteries, even fisherman would have known its position since sound of its diesel engines would have scared away fishes. Traversing long distances during peacetime does not mean that your Diesel subs would serve anything except submerged coffin, if you try to deploy them at such distances during war.

And what does AIP has to do with it. A sub on AIP barely crawls. AIP is used in fine adjustment before attacking a ship,if that ship is a little farther away from ambush point, not long distance navigation. It would barely cover any appreciable distance even after traveling for much longer amount of time.

and for the question as to why Pakistan is buying it? Are you a f-kin geography fail!

Pakistan is neighbour of India and does not need range and your subs cost half that of European subs.

I have pointed this out in another thread.

First. Wrong calculations.Even $5 billion for 8 Submarines ,which you are quoting as upper limit, would translate to $625 million per submarine.

Second. This is not costly by any means. India has issued a tender for 6 conventional Subs ,whose worth India itself (quoted cost may be higher than this) has put at $8.1 Billion, to be inducted concurrently with your subs. Most probably Type 212/214 or Japanese Soryu (if they participate) would be selected. This would put average cost per sub at $1.35 Billion and this would not include AIP propulsion as India would install DRDO's fuel cells on those subs, but would include transfer of technology clause for some subsystems.

Even the older Scorpion deal finalised in 2005 cost $4.38 Billion which comes at $730 million per boat, and remember this is a 10 year old tender in 2005 dollars.Inflation alone would push cost of those scorpenes to around $900 million per boat, and they come without AIP, a system which would be installed by India on its own dime.

I do not understand this bitching about cost when you are getting your subs at 0.47-0.69 times the price of what similar boats from Europe would cost.

And last:

Submarines are countered by ASW assets, not submarines of same class, unless they are SSBNs/SSNs as only a SSN would have range to hunt down another SSN/SSBN. A diesel sub does not have range or flexibility to hunt another Sub. Hunting of Subs is done by ASW air assets and ASW frigates.So matching a sub with sub is not required, especially not when your enemy could not bring his puny diesel subs to theater of operation.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Traversing long distances during peacetime does not mean that your Diesel subs would serve anything except submerged coffin.

So why are you guys constantly crying about Chinese submarines operating in the Indian ocean?

Exclusive: Chinese submarine lurked past Indian waters, docked in Karachi - India Today

You guys have the same "1962 mentality" of underestimating us despite our submarines roaming around the Indian ocean on a regular basis.

The difference is unlike 1962, today we are not in the middle of the worst famine in our history. So you won't be attacking a starving country like you did last time.

As for geography fail, have you seen how close Hainan island is to the Malacca straits? Have you ever seen a map?