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Blain,
I have already acknowledged whatever Niaz Sir has said including Pakistan Pilots did recieve Better Training and better Professionals.
Though from what I have read F-86 is superior albit slightly
This is all with the Grace of Allah what we achived in 1965 war... this is what we say JAZBA and we will do it again Inshallah when the time comes
This is all with the Grace of Allah what we achived in 1965 war... this is what we say JAZBA and we will do it again Inshallah when the time comes
Well you can rely upon the grace of God if you want.....I would prefer it if they relied upon skill and good equipment.
Np. Simply pointing out that F-86 was not superior to Hawker Hunter. Since Goodperson has cited from Wikipedia of all the places , he should also look at the performance parameters of the Hunter and the F-86.
Hunter Performance
* Maximum speed: Mach 0.94, 620 knots (715 mph, 1,150 km/h) at sea level
* Combat range: 385 nm (445 mi, 715 km)
* Ferry range: 1,650 nm (1,900 mi, 3,060 km) with external fuel
* Service ceiling: 50,000 ft (15,240 m)
* Rate of climb: 17,200 ft/min (87.4 m/s)
* Wing loading: 51.6 lb/ftò (251.9 kg/mò)
* Thrust/weight: 0.56
F-86 Performance
* Maximum speed: 685 mph (595 knots, 1,100 km/h)
* Range: 1,200 mi (1,000 nm, 1,900 km)
* Service ceiling: 49,000 ft (14,900 m)
* Rate of climb: 7,250 ft/min (36.8 m/s)
* Thrust/weight: 0.38
* Lift-to-drag ratio: 15.1
* Time to altitude: 6.3 min to 30,000 ft (9,145 m)
As I mentioned, Sabre was flown with more aggressive and fluid tactics. The aircraft was not superior to the Hunter in any manner. PAF pilots downed an IAF Mirage III with the same aircraft in the 73 Yom Kippur war so its (Hunter's) potency is not to be underestimated.
Also on the issue of AAMs that are being mentioned, PAF only expended 23 or so AIM-9s throughout the entire war and the success rate was something like 9%. Most of the kills were with the gun.
This is not correct. IAF had a squadron of Mig 21's. Most of these were shot down either on the ground or during take off. I am not sure but these were based either on Pathankot or Halwara. A certain Flt Lt Khalid Latif who took part in 65 war under the command of Nozy Haider, was younger brother of a close friend. He told me that he saw IAF Mig 21's himself.
I have also had a discussion with the great MM Alam once. He came to Kuwait sometimes in late 70's and I met him at the house of a mutual friend who was on secondment to Kuwaiti Air Force as an instructor. What I could gather was that PAF came on top in 1965 mainly because of two things:
1. Air Marshal Asghar Khan was an exceptional commander who instilled extreme professionalism in all branches of PAF. PAF was therefore better trained and prepared and behaved like a unit.
2. Hunter was a slightly superior aircraft to F-86, but Pakistan had the good fortune of having half a dozen exceptionally skilled pilots such as Aluddin Butch; MM Alam, Sarfraz Rafiqui and Nozey Haider etc. This prevented numerical superiority of IAF to have any effect of the battle.
Indians however learned a lot from this drubbing and competency of the pilots were evenly matched during 1971. PAF showing in 1971 is nothing to be pround off.
Incidentally, nepotism and lack of professionalism surfaced in PAF during Bhutto time and became worse during Zia era when he promoted his brother in law( husband of wife's sister), who was then base commander Mauripur and subsequently raised him to PAF Chief. MM Alam retired as AVM. Last PAF Chief who actually saw action was Pervez Mehdi Qureshi who was based in East Pakistan and shot down by ground fire while attacking IAF airfields in West Bengal in 1971.
I have a feeling the merit had ceased to be a basis of promotion in PA since Ayub Khan later years. ( The book "The way it was" by Brig Zafar Alam). Dont know much about Navy but according a retired AVM who I met in Dubai recently, skills of Pakistani pilots upto the Squadron Leader level is second to none, it is the Air Commodore and higher ranks where the merit is not necessarily the basis for promotion.
Among PAF Chiefs, there has been no one with professionalism and integrity to match Asgahr Khan/ Noor Khan. Mushif Mir was the only one who stands out among the rest.
Naiz , MM Alam retired as an Air Commodore not AVM, And PAF since the day it was turned from RPAF to PAF up till today the standards have been the same. What Asghar Khan , Nur Khan speciallly Nur Khan the foundations they laid were so strong that we have been exceeding them at all levels. And The AVM you met in Dubai do you remember his name. Any one of names click ( MONIN ARIF or JAMAL )
Last PAF Chief who actually saw action was Pervez Mehdi Qureshi who was based in East Pakistan and shot down by ground fire while attacking IAF airfields in West Bengal in 1971.
This is not correct. IAF had a squadron of Mig 21's. Most of these were shot down either on the ground or during take off. I am not sure but these were based either on Pathankot or Halwara. A certain Flt Lt Khalid Latif who took part in 65 war under the command of Nozy Haider, was younger brother of a close friend. He told me that he saw IAF Mig 21's himself.