how did china build its infrastructure ?

[below_freezing]

I knew this discussion would go too far. Discussions like this evitably turn personal, so I’ll throw in some caveats with regards to race and IQ.

IQ distrubtions like many things in nature follows a Gaussian distribution and the IQ number quoted is the just a mean (average) of the curve. This number says nothing about the range or how IQ’s are distrubuted about the mean.

When comparing IQ’s between groups of people, it is important to remember even with significant difference in average IQ ie a 20 point difference there is still a very very large overlap.

What this means is, IQ of races is almost a worthless indicator of job performance, societal status, and wealth, given that other factors can affect these to a much greater extent (things like socioeconomics status at birth, access to higher education, pushy parents that expect a lot, how hard an individual works, etc.)

BUT this is not to mean that the things listed above (nurture) will increase Raw IQ (it just doesn’t). Evolution is what determines intelligence. Intelligence is what makes us humans and race difference is just tiny compared to evolutionary intelligence difference from great apes to tool using pre-humans to modern humans.

Evolution of human intelligence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(in fact you can often judge fossiles of prehumans and where they fall on the evolutionary chain by measuring cranium volume)

Lastly, I want to state that examples like how many scientists are chinese, or how many doctors are indians in America are invalid evidence for supporting IQ and race. These are heavily distorted by selection bias.

selection bias - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com

The people who often travel abroad are often a self-selecting group with a higher percentage of professionals. This phenomonon actually has a name, Model minority. One example would be Canadians assume all chinese people are good at math (not true, I hate math) but it is a stereotype that does get carried by people.

Model minority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So really it is worthless to say anything about how many patents chinese scientists hold or how many Indians work at the JPL, they are a self selecting group and god knows the talent pool for both China and India is HUGE due to population size. (it would be a travesty if our peoples didn't succeed aboard given the number of people we have)

this is a very good explaination. a lower than average IQ for a bulk population does not actually imply that the total number of people with above a certain IQ in that lower population is very low.

the selection bias things are also important.

I'd also like to talk to speeder about the Israeli Jew thing: Israeli jews being dumb because they're from europe doesn't make sense either, as the average IQ of all european countries, including Russia, is higher than Israel.

 

[GodlessBastard]

self delete

 

[Speeder 2]

No it is not. Race and inheritance are two very different things.... The whole argument that is being put forward here is that certain races/ethnicities have "naturally-higher" IQs than other races/ethnicities, and that this results in a higher level of economic development. That is bullshit.

From my studies in this field, I think that inheritance has only a minor impact (20-30%) on one's IQ. More often than not, one's environment is the deciding factor in one's intelligence (70-80%). There are a few outliers and exceptions, but overall this is true for any population.

Utter bullshit!

Who told you those lines? Back street boys?

 

[Speeder 2]

Below-Freezing:

I have taken the risk, yes risk I mean, of being automatically labelled as a racist, a Nazi, as main stream European media always do in such a case, in elaborating my understanding on both “what China was able to build decent infrastructure” and the related “IQ” issues.

To be honest, I find it uncomfortable and even somewhat bizarre to argue here in the forum about this kind of basic yet proven concepts such as the existence of different intelligence leverl in relation to different races, the related IQ , and more importantly what are their profound and ongoing implications to human achievements around the world, wherein Chinese infrastructure reflects merely a tiny tip of an iceberg.

Any Indians in India can’t bother me a bit with their viewpoints, however absurd they are. Yet I do feel extremely nervous about what Chinese, particularly Chinese in China like you and Chinese Dragon whom I think probably is very young, think on the similar issues.

I hope you understand that I had shown a high level of tolerance in answering your basically left-wing Marxist viewpoints one by one in the hope that you guys ( you and Chinese Dragon) are not the typical representatives of what most Chinese in China view this issue for otherwise it would be just unthinkablely sad.

Cheers and have a good weekend!

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I hope you understand that I had shown a high level of tolerance in answering your basically left-wing Marxist viewpoints one by one in the hope that you guys ( you and Chinese Dragon) are not the typical representatives of what most Chinese in China view this issue for otherwise it would be just unthinkablely sad.

Well, when was the last time you went back to China, and talked to someone about this issue?

Also I'm not sure what you mean by "left-wing Marxist viewpoints", especially bearing in mind that China is governed by the CCP?

 

[below_freezing]

You are absolutely right though. In china no one talks about IQ as a factor for success. In the definition of IQ, it does not actually refer to intellect. It is mental age / real age * 100. By the time someone is over the age of 30, IQ counts are pointless because someone with the mind of a 20 year old at age 30 is a retard at 66 IQ, but we all know that 20 year olds can make major discoveries.

I do not believe in inferior or superior races. I believe firmly, with strong statistical evidence, in inferior or superior cultures for a given stage of development.

"IQ到底是什么？它的分数是怎样计算的呢？
IQ的全称是Intelligence Quotient，翻译成中文是智力商数，简称智商。心理学家运用智力测验这一工具来测得人的智力水平，用智商的高低表现智力的优劣。古时也有很多智力测验，如我国北齐时代刘昼曾用"使左手画方，右手画圆，令一时俱成"的测验来测量人的智力，这些测验都没有一定的指标。现在广泛使用的智商记分方法源自比奈的智力年龄的概念。
智力年龄简称智龄，也称心理年龄，指智力达到了一定的年龄水平，是衡量一个人智力高低的尺度。最初的西蒙-比奈智力测验是用年龄量表表示测验分数的。这里的年龄量表，就是在量表中，每个年龄组有6个题目，每个题目代表两个月的智龄，将所答对的各年龄组的分量表的智龄相加，就是该儿童的智力年龄了。
后来在使用中发现，智龄为10岁，对于8岁、10岁、15岁的儿童来说，具有不同的意义。因此，于1916年推孟修订的斯-比量表中，采用了智商的概念。智商即前面所讲的智力年龄与实际年龄的商数。两个年龄相除，更多的是得到小数。为了符合人们的习惯，心理学家将这个商数整数化，即再乘以100：
IQ=MA（智龄）/CA（实龄）×100
如果说智龄表示了心理发展的水平，是一个绝对的量数，那么智商就表示了心理发展的速率，是一个相对的量数。显然，智商比智龄更科学。
由上面智商的推算公式我们可以看出，IQ大于100是很有可能的。但是117分是不是一个"天才"的分数呢？
有人曾做过人群中各个IQ分数段所占的比例的统计：
人群中只有1％的人智商在140分以上；有11％的智商属于120分～139分；18％属于110分～119分；46％属于90分～109分；15％属于80分～89分；6％属于70分～79分；另外，有3％的人智商低于70分，属于智能不足者。 "

ÇëÎÊIQ·ÖÖµÕæµÄÄÜ´ú±íÖÇÁ¦Âð£¿_°Ù¶ÈÖªµÀ

 

[Martian2]

Let's review the facts.

1. IQ differences are real between races.

I could post an overwhelming amount of evidence, but it's not a good idea.

2. High IQ levels are insufficient to build an advanced technological society. You also need capital and information/technology accumulation.

In other words, your society needs to have the prerequisites. Basic education has to be widely available. Next, the legal system has to reward inventors by establishing patent laws to protect their inventions. The accumulation of inventions leads to ever-more sophisticated new inventions and knowledge.

Also, large domestic corporations or government institutions must provide the enormous sums of money to purchase the scientific equipment and sustain a multi-year endeavor to advance the country's scientific and technological capabilities.

3. By definition, a person's innate IQ (i.e. highest-achievable IQ) was fixed at the time that they were born. Performance on an IQ test (e.g. expressed or observed IQ) may vary to a limited extent due to a person's particular culture, education level, family support, etc.

The results from IQ research provide a reasonable estimate of the general IQ level of a nation. The IQ research scientists are properly comparing apples to apples. The same test is given to 8th graders, 12th graders, or a group of comparably-educated students in different countries. Anyone that is familiar with statistics understands the law of large numbers (e.g. when the sample size is large, the result will be statistically significant).

4. IQ research and differences are valid areas of scientific research. However, it is a bad idea to discuss the results of IQ differences among nations and/or races. It can be divisive.

In conclusion, discussing IQ differences in a social context is the nuclear option. Regardless of its validity, it will make many people angry and the subject should be avoided.

 

[ao333]

Guys, infrastructure problems are always due to impotent city planning -- their predictions of future population, commerce and traffic. In India, they just fail without correcting them. In China, they just deconstruct what's there and correct it. It's as simple as that.

 

[below_freezing]

Well put. There are factors other than IQ that completely dwarf the problems of IQ. like you said, capital and technology accumulation is key (disagree on patents; if there were no patents for anyone, the end result is the same as patents if your technology is high enough but there's no unnecessary and artificial restriction on trade).

i don't know much about other fields, so i'll use something from chemistry.

a major reactor design in process chemistry is the fluidized bed reactor. it is used to carry out multiphased catalytic reactions important in petrochemical production. let's say you're a chemistry/chemical engineering graduate dumped into 19th century britain (was going to say stone age but that'd be too radical). will you be the one to make a fluidized bed reactor and become a billionaire of the 19th century?

of course not because while you may be an expert on the process chemistry or the reactor design the technology to build it doesn't exist yet nor does one person know everything related to this one type of reactor (there are alot of reactors too). only specialized chemists know how to design and manufacture the catalysts in the reactor. we are still discovering catalysts today; the specific catalyst needed might not have existed back then (or if it did, you wouldn't know about it). other specialized chemists know how to use the catalysts to make a certain reaction. some chemical engineers know what pressure and temperature to run the reaction at for maximum yield but know nothing about the reactor design itself. other chemical engineers know the reactor design but don't know anything about the actual chemistry within the reactor. still others only know the theoretical calculations of what happens inside the reactor but have no idea of how to actually build one. without the accumulation of all this knowledge, you either 1.) don't have this reactor or 2.) this reactor is completely useless.

 

[Martian2]

During the past few years, we have seen the pictures of China's proliferating world-class infrastructure. We are now starting to see the beginning of a new era. Other countries have decided that they want to improve their economies with modern infrastructure and they're contracting with China to build their important projects.

China earns newfound respect with Mashair - Arab News

"China earns newfound respect with Mashair
By SIRAJ WAHAB | ARAB NEWS
Published: Nov 20, 2010 00:13 Updated: Nov 20, 2010 00:46

"Made in China" is no longer a taboo label, thanks to Mashair railway. (AN photo)

MINA: Perhaps the most notable improvement of Saudi Arabia’s many projects to accommodate Haj pilgrims is the railway that shuttled tens of thousands of people around the holy sites.

As the modern, high-tech trains picked up and dropped off passengers, they created a newfound respect for Chinese-made products and Chinese-engineering prowess. Officials said the multibillion-riyal project that was started last year will about triple its capacity from present levels when completed in 2012. Nonetheless, the rail system has already alleviated vehicular traffic around Mina and made travel for many pilgrims a snap.

The Sino-Saudi relationship has been growing over the last decade as China has sought more fossil fuels to power its economic growth. Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Abdullah helped realign the nation’s trade relationships with the implementation of a “Look East” policy, which has fostered imports of heavy machinery and construction equipment as well as consumer goods. China has also raised the quality of its exported goods to fight earlier perceptions that its exports were inferior to products manufactured elsewhere.

“We would go to shopping malls and ask for Made-in-Germany and Made-in-Japan stuff. We would look down upon Made-in-China stuff,” said Suleiman Al-Hatrash, a social-sciences teacher at an Abha college. “We started taking China seriously when we went to the Western countries and saw their shopping malls filled with Made-in-China goods.”

However, the state-of-the-art rail system is changing peoples’ perceptions about China almost as fast as it is whisking passengers around Mina.

“People couldn’t believe their eyes when they saw pilgrims being ferried between the holy sites of Mina, Muzdalifah and Arafat,” said journalist Hadi Fakihi. “Those who rode the train were gushing about its high-tech aspects. China has overnight become a nation to respect and emulate.”

“China has won hearts with this successful project,” said Rashad Husein, vice president of the South Asian Pilgrim Establishment. “It is the first time China has executed such a massive project in the Islamic world. This will not only bring China and the Muslim world closer; this will strengthen the bond between Saudi Arabia and China.”

The technology transfers are not one way. Saudi Aramco, the Kingdom’s national oil company, has lent refining expertise and resources to oil and petrochemical projects in partnership with Chinese companies. Some less tangible things are being exported back to China as well.

Of China’s population of nearly 1.4 billion, about 23 million are Muslims. About 13,000 Chinese Muslims performed Haj this year, which included imams, doctors and government officials. Most of the Chinese railway engineers were not Muslims when they arrived in the Kingdom. A special town was set up for them beyond the jurisdiction of Makkah as the holy city is off-limits to non-Muslims. During the course of the construction of the railway, many of the Chinese engineers embraced Islam.

“That led to even greater love and respect for the Chinese,” said Ali Al-Harithy, a Saudi businessman conducting commerce with China. He said he also was impressed that the new stronger ties with China don’t seem to be disruptive to the Kingdom’s longstanding associations with the United States and Europe.

“It was America that helped the Arab states discover oil, and ever since ties between Saudi Arabia and the United States have been very close,” Al-Harithy said. “For China to create space for itself in this region is phenomenal. This Makkah Metro is world-class, and every single aspect of it was carried out in Chinese factories by Chinese technicians and engineers. It is an engineering marvel. Hats off to the Chinese.”

“‘Made in China’ is no longer a taboo label,” said Sudanese journalist Hassan Ibrahim. 'It has now earned a halo of respectability.'”

 

[Developereo]

1. IQ differences are real between races.
[...]
3. By definition, a person's innate IQ (i.e. highest-achievable IQ) was fixed at the time that they were born. Performance on an IQ test (e.g. expressed or observed IQ) may vary to a limited extent due to a person's particular culture, education level, family support, etc.

The results from IQ research provide a reasonable estimate of the general IQ level of a nation. The IQ research scientists are properly comparing apples to apples. The same test is given to 8th graders, 12th graders, or a group of comparably-educated students in different countries. Anyone that is familiar with statistics understands the law of large numbers (e.g. when the sample size is large, the result will be statistically significant).

I am not convinced that these so-called IQ ranges are genetically determined. The fact is that humans are social animals and, except for specifically contrived cases, it is impossible to separate culture from biology. Even if you test a group of 8th graders in a wealthy US school district, you can't factor out the influence of the home environment, the relatives, etc.

I think a more valid comparision would be something like a PQ (Productivity Quotient) which measures a person's ability to contribute positively to society. This is a combination of innate biological ability plus culture, education, ambition, drive, work ethic, etc.

I would agree that East Asians have a high PQ, along with Westerners, while people in poorer parts of the world lag behind in PQ.

Made in China’ is no longer a taboo label

With all due respect, while I have great admiration for China's success, that statement is simply not true. The kind of respect that is enjoyed by Western and Japanese engineering did not come overnight; it was earned after decades of performance and reliability.

There is a common saying in the hardware business: you can buy a Chinese tool for $20 and buy a new one every two years, or you can buy a German model for $200 and hand it down to your grandkids.

'Made in China' may enjoy the same level of prestige as 'Made in Germany' or 'Made in Japan' but it will only happen over time as Chinese engineering proves itself in the long run.

 

[CardSharp]

Intelligence is genetically determined period. Plasticity (the range by which education, upbring etc can vary IQ) is also genetically determined.

 

[CardSharp]

With all due respect, while I have great admiration for China's success, that statement is simply not true. The kind of respect that is enjoyed by Western and Japanese engineering did not come overnight; it was earned after decades of performance and reliability.

There is a common saying in the hardware business: you can buy a Chinese tool for $20 and buy a new one every two years, or you can buy a German model for $200 and hand it down to your grandkids.

'Made in China' may enjoy the same level of prestige as 'Made in Germany' or 'Made in Japan' but it will only happen over time as Chinese engineering proves itself in the long run.

You're reading too much into a fluff piece. People will always say nice things about their business partners.

 

[below_freezing]

I am not convinced that these so-called IQ ranges are genetically determined. The fact is that humans are social animals and, except for specifically contrived cases, it is impossible to separate culture from biology. Even if you test a group of 8th graders in a wealthy US school district, you can't factor out the influence of the home environment, the relatives, etc.

I think a more valid comparision would be something like a PQ (Productivity Quotient) which measures a person's ability to contribute positively to society. This is a combination of innate biological ability plus culture, education, ambition, drive, work ethic, etc.

I would agree that East Asians have a high PQ, along with Westerners, while people in poorer parts of the world lag behind in PQ.



With all due respect, while I have great admiration for China's success, that statement is simply not true. The kind of respect that is enjoyed by Western and Japanese engineering did not come overnight; it was earned after decades of performance and reliability.

There is a common saying in the hardware business: you can buy a Chinese tool for $20 and buy a new one every two years, or you can buy a German model for $200 and hand it down to your grandkids.

'Made in China' may enjoy the same level of prestige as 'Made in Germany' or 'Made in Japan' but it will only happen over time as Chinese engineering proves itself in the long run.

You'd be an idiot for buying the 200 dollar model because who the hell will need hardware tools every day? You use them once per year or so and they'll never break.

 

[Developereo]

Intelligence is genetically determined period. Plasticity (the range by which education, upbring etc can vary IQ) is also genetically determined.

Two things wrong with that statement.

First, how do you define 'Intelligence'? Performance on an IQ test?
I would argue that the so-called IQ test is more of a measure of productivity; i.e. how well the individual is prepared to be integrated and productive within society. Raw intelligence in only a contributing factor in that score.

Secondly, and most importantly, genetics only determines you cranial capacity: your neuronal raw material, so to speak. After that, nurture takes over to determine how those neuronal connections develop over time. And any geneticist will tell you that there is far more genetic variaion within races than there is across races.

Genetic variation, classification and 'race' - Nature Genetics

Consider an apportionment of Old World populations into three continents (Africa, Asia and Europe), a grouping that corresponds to a common view of three of the 'major races'16, 17. Approximately 85−90% of genetic variation is found within these continental groups, and only an additional 10−15% of variation is found between them18, 19, 20 (Table 1). In other words, 90% of total genetic variation would be found in a collection of individuals from a single continent, and only 10% more variation would be found if the collection consisted of Europeans, Asians and Africans

You'd be an idiot for buying the 200 dollar model because who the hell will need hardware tools every day? You use them once per year or so and they'll never break.

Please read my post again. The quote is from the hardware business, i.e. people who use these tools eight hours a day, day in and day out, year in and year out. Reliability, endurance and workmanship matters. I am sure the quality of Chinese products is improving and may even match Western levels in some cases but, like I said, respect is earned over time through demonstration. There is no way to speed it up.