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how did china build its infrastructure ?

Some excellent ideas there Martian2. :tup:

One of the great things about mass industrialization, is that it leads to urbanization.

When populations are concentrated in urban areas, suddenly "infrastructure" becomes so much more cost effective. Water, roads, electricity, etc. can be easily supplied to a large number of people at minimal cost.

We have seen this pattern all over East Asia, and in the Western world as well, i.e. industrialization followed by urbanization.

In large Chinese cities like Beijing/Shanghai/Hong Kong, you can see how "optimized" the infrastructure is, and the enormous numbers of people this infrastructure can sustain.
 
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my analysis purely on what and how india went thru and did in last 1 decade. !

Actually, except 2005-2007 during which India gained very high GDP growth rate, the rest of the decade is not very different from the average growth rate during 1980-2000. Even though India could be able to sustain GDP growth rate at 10 percent in next decade, the infrastructure of India will not necessarily be improved at the same rate.

Let's check two countries' economy and infrastructure quick facts here.

* Today, China's steel production is almost 10 times as India's. India's steel production will be over 100 million tons in 2012, china reached that milestone in 1993.

*Although India follows China as the second largest cement producer, China cement production is 5 times as India's - 200+ millions tons, china reached 200 millions tons in 1990.

*India and china had the similar railway network size in 70s and 80s. But china (2009) has 86000 km railway and India (2010) has 64000 km. Also, china has 32000 km electrified railway while india has 20059 km. Forget about that India had only 18% railway length increase during past 60 years, let's assume india can have the same railway expansion rate as China in 1990-2000: 1000 km new railway and 900 km new electrified railyway annually. It will take 20 years and 13 years respectively for India to catch up China's existing total and electrified railway length.

*India's highest railway speed is 160 km/h, china had 160 km/h high speed service in 1994.

*China started to prepare high speed rail way construction in 1995, and completed its first high speed railway (>200 km/h) in 2003. India HSR is still in planning stage

*India's existing expressway length is around 400km, China had 572Km in 1991.

*India's current electricity production is comparable to china's in earlier 90s

*It is predicted that India's electricity generation capacity will reach 950,000 MW by 2030, china has more than 900,000 MW installed electricity generation capacity now

3w.monstersandcritics.com/news/energywatch/news/article_1184013.php/India_envisages_about_950000_MW_power_requirement_by_2030]India]India envisages about 950,000 MW power requirement by 2030 - Monsters and Critics[/url] envisages about 950,000 MW power requirement by 2030 - Monsters and Critics


In terms of airport infrastructue, seems that india is not lagging behind china too much

*China had 500 airports in 2007 - 400 with paved runways and 100 with 3k+ runways
India has 335 airports in 2008 - 250 with paved runway and 19 with 3K+ runways

* Delhi/Mumbai airports are handling annual 20+ millions passenger as Beijing/Shanghai airports did ten years ago.
 
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Yes indeed Chinese infrastructure is awesome.

Just look at these robots they have created to pack cards, they almost look human.

 
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WTF... that was really mind blowing fast! One guy wasn't even looking while packing the cards.
 
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Actually, except 2005-2007 during which India gained very high GDP growth rate, the rest of the decade is not very different from the average growth rate during 1980-2000. Even though India could be able to sustain GDP growth rate at 10 percent in next decade, the infrastructure of India will not necessarily be improved at the same rate.

Let's check two countries' economy and infrastructure quick facts here.

* Today, China's steel production is almost 10 times as India's. India's steel production will be over 100 million tons in 2012, china reached that milestone in 1993.

*Although India follows China as the second largest cement producer, China cement production is 5 times as India's - 200+ millions tons, china reached 200 millions tons in 1990.

*India and china had the similar railway network size in 70s and 80s. But china (2009) has 86000 km railway and India (2010) has 64000 km. Also, china has 32000 km electrified railway while india has 20059 km. Forget about that India had only 18% railway length increase during past 60 years, let's assume india can have the same railway expansion rate as China in 1990-2000: 1000 km new railway and 900 km new electrified railyway annually. It will take 20 years and 13 years respectively for India to catch up China's existing total and electrified railway length.

*India's highest railway speed is 160 km/h, china had 160 km/h high speed service in 1994.

*China started to prepare high speed rail way construction in 1995, and completed its first high speed railway (>200 km/h) in 2003. India HSR is still in planning stage

*India's existing expressway length is around 400km, China had 572Km in 1991.

*India's current electricity production is comparable to china's in earlier 90s

*It is predicted that India's electricity generation capacity will reach 950,000 MW by 2030, china has more than 900,000 MW installed electricity generation capacity now

3w.monstersandcritics.com/news/energywatch/news/article_1184013.php/India_envisages_about_950000_MW_power_requirement_by_2030]India]India envisages about 950,000 MW power requirement by 2030 - Monsters and Critics[/url] envisages about 950,000 MW power requirement by 2030 - Monsters and Critics


In terms of airport infrastructue, seems that india is not lagging behind china too much

*China had 500 airports in 2007 - 400 with paved runways and 100 with 3k+ runways
India has 335 airports in 2008 - 250 with paved runway and 19 with 3K+ runways

* Delhi/Mumbai airports are handling annual 20+ millions passenger as Beijing/Shanghai airports did ten years ago.

thanks to chinese guyz around......reading ur posts were definately constructive. i appretiate and it was indeed a nice addition to my knowledge database.

but can anyone tell me that during the whole development phase of china from 1980 to 2000, were they of themselves of were there heavy investments from developed world too ?

the reason i am asking is the whole developed world is investing in india, INCLUDING China. opening branches, investing in infrastructure, etc etc...thats what i think is adding to the progress of india. i mean, this definately shortens the development phase incase if done indegenously.

Eg: Japan and S Korea.

how much do u think my argument holds weight ?

Thanks !:cheers:
 
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thanks to chinese guyz around......reading ur posts were definately constructive. i appretiate and it was indeed a nice addition to my knowledge database.

but can anyone tell me that during the whole development phase of china from 1980 to 2000, were they of themselves of were there heavy investments from developed world too ?

the reason i am asking is the whole developed world is investing in india, INCLUDING China. opening branches, investing in infrastructure, etc etc...thats what i think is adding to the progress of india. i mean, this definately shortens the development phase incase if done indegenously.

Eg: Japan and S Korea.

how much do u think my argument holds weight ?

Thanks !:cheers:


Here you go; your argument make reasonable sense and most important of all not bias and civilized.:tup:
fig_fdi_3.gif

China: Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) by Country of Origin
 
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thanks to chinese guyz around......reading ur posts were definately constructive. i appretiate and it was indeed a nice addition to my knowledge database.

but can anyone tell me that during the whole development phase of china from 1980 to 2000, were they of themselves of were there heavy investments from developed world too ?

the reason i am asking is the whole developed world is investing in india, INCLUDING China. opening branches, investing in infrastructure, etc etc...thats what i think is adding to the progress of india. i mean, this definately shortens the development phase incase if done indegenously.

Eg: Japan and S Korea.

how much do u think my argument holds weight ?

Thanks !:cheers:

On second thought, I think they should elect you as Prime Minister of India. You are objective and rational. I think I'll keep my position as an armchair general. ;)
 
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On second thought, I think they should elect you as Prime Minister of India. You are objective and rational. I think I'll keep my position as an armchair general. ;)

He He !

U mean i shud be like Manmohan singh..... and u want to be sonia gandhi......:cheesy::lol::lol:
 
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the reason i am asking is the whole developed world is investing in india, INCLUDING China. opening branches, investing in infrastructure, etc etc...thats what i think is adding to the progress of india. i mean, this definately shortens the development phase incase if done indegenously.

When you were saying the whole developed world is investing in India, have you noticed that the top two investing countries in India are Mauritius and Singapore, one has 68%, another has 10% population of Indian descents. "Blood is thicker than water", Don't expect western developed countries investment can help India so much.

If you look at the pie chart which is provide by Brotherhood, it has been the same case for china, the most of foreign investment especially in 80s,90s come from Hong Kong, Taiwan , Macau and Singapore. Oversea Chinese not only played significant role to shape China's light industry and export oriented economy by investment, but also contributed a lot by transferring and mentoring technology and knowhow- pretty much like Indian IT professionals oversea helping India IT industry now to become dominant force in IT outsourcing. But one of advantages China had is that these capital and technology investments coming form chinese oversea were not limited to one or two industrial areas, it applied to the whole china's exported oriented industrialization, this might be another reason Martian2 mentioned in previous post it is much more difficult for India to become manufacturing powerhouse.
 
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When you were saying the whole developed world is investing in India, have you noticed that the top two investing countries in India are Mauritius and Singapore, one has 68%, another has 10% population of Indian descents. "Blood is thicker than water", Don't expect western developed countries investment can help India so much.

If you look at the pie chart which is provide by Brotherhood, it has been the same case for china, the most of foreign investment especially in 80s,90s come from Hong Kong, Taiwan , Macau and Singapore. Oversea Chinese not only played significant role to shape China's light industry and export oriented economy by investment, but also contributed a lot by transferring and mentoring technology and knowhow- pretty much like Indian IT professionals oversea helping India IT industry now to become dominant force in IT outsourcing. But one of advantages China had is that these capital and technology investments coming form chinese oversea were not limited to one or two industrial areas, it applied to the whole china's exported oriented industrialization, this might be another reason Martian2 mentioned in previous post it is much more difficult for India to become manufacturing powerhouse.

hmm..the point of mauritus and singapore seem convincing.

but again i am not talking bout Forex !

I am talking bout foreign companies building its base in india. almost every american and european company is coming to india. they are setting up manufacturing plants here. there have been land access problems here coz of no control of govt on land but ultimately interstate rivalry somehow let these factories take base.

now my argument was, india is building dedicated corridors, ports, and along these corridors will be factories set.

If u see next 10 yr plan has more than US$ 1 tr to be invested and the planning commision has come out with the whole structured plan for infrstructure development in next two 5 yr plans ie. till 2020. u must have heard, 2020 is india's target to be fit with all infrastructure so that the fruits start to pop hence.

indian banking and finance sector is very powerful, infact more than chinese. and investment in finance sector is also high.

so dont u see, india's gameplan is completely out of phase as that of chinese.

also mauritus has become a gateway for many other country ppl. do u thing 68% of investment is only by mauritian ppl ?:no:

just like hong-kong is for u !

but i want to know, why is only manufacturing sector or industrialization, ie. factories considered the only formula for development ?

dont u think indians can rock even more in services sector.

INTERNATIONAL SERVICE SECTOR is worth 1.5 - 2 trillion.

india currently has only 50+ bn market.

with growth and rising percapita income, the quality of services for locals and abroad will onlyget better.

owing to indian expertise in service sector and experience might give undue advantage to india in this field......JUST LIKE CHINA CAPTURED 1 SECTOR, cant INDIA CAPTURE some other which has VERY HIGH POTENTIAL.

Thanks !
 
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During the last twenty years, Taiwan has invested $150 billion to $300 billion dollars into mainland China. There are over a million Taiwanese living and working on the mainland. Also, there are more than 70,000 Taiwanese companies on the mainland. Taiwan's monetary, management, technological, business connections, and more contributions to the mainland cannot be overstated.

Taiwan

"U.S. Department of State
...
Economic Outlook

Taiwan faces many of the same economic issues as other developed economies. As labor-intensive industries have relocated to countries with low-cost labor, Taiwan's future development will rely on further transformation to a high technology and service-oriented economy and carving out its niche in the global supply chain. Taiwan's economy has become increasingly linked with China, and the Ma administration is expected to further develop these links and liberalize cross-Strait economic relations, particularly through negotiations under the Economic Cooperation Framework Agreement (ECFA). Taiwan official statistics indicate that Taiwan firms had invested about U.S. $84.4 billion in China as of the end of 2009, which is more than half of Taiwan's stock of direct foreign investment. Many unofficial estimates put the actual number at between U.S. $150 and over $300 billion. Exact figures are difficult to obtain, as much Taiwan investment in the P.R.C. is via Hong Kong and other third-party jurisdictions. More than one million Taiwan people are estimated to be residing in China, and more than 70,000 Taiwan companies have operations there. Taiwan firms are increasingly acting as management centers that take in orders, produce them in Taiwan, the mainland, or Southeast Asia and then ship the final products to the U.S. and other markets."

China Claims #9 Rank In United States Patents!

"For 2009, China passed Italy to claim the ninth-highest rank for countries that receive the most patents in the United States.

Patents By Country, State, and Year - All Patent Types (December 2009)

Patents granted by the United States for the year 2009.

1. U.S. 95,037 patents
2. Japan 38,066
(Greater China 10,638)
3. Germany 10,353
4. South Korea 9,566
5. Taiwan 7,781
6. Canada 4,393
7. U.K. 4,011
8. France 3,805
9. China 2,270
10. Italy 1,837
...
India 720
Hong Kong 587 (Patent office counts Hong Kong as a separate entity)
Singapore 493
Russian Federation 204
Brazil 148

For 2009, Greater China's 10,638 combined total patents (i.e. China's 2,270 + Taiwan's 7,781 + Hong Kong's 587) are greater than Germany's 10,353 patents. Greater China would rank third on the U.S. patent list. The patent ranks are important because they help to explain why China is the world's largest exporter and Germany is the world's second-largest exporter. Patents play an important role.

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[Note: These are my comments from last year on "Greater China outnumbers German patents."

There are 70,000 Taiwanese companies on the Chinese Mainland. It is my guess that many Chinese exports incorporate not only Chinese patents, but also Taiwanese patents. The Taiwanese were a perennial #4 in U.S. patents received until they were passed by South Korea in 2008.

While the current number of Chinese patents appears to be insufficient to support a large high-tech export base, the combination of Greater China (i.e. Chinese, Taiwanese, and Hong Kong) patents should suffice.

Greater China's 10,370 patents (i.e. China's 1,874 + Taiwan's 7,779 + Hong Kong's 717) are greater than the number of German patents at 10,086.

Taiwan (10/09)
"Significant migration to Taiwan from the Chinese mainland began as early as A.D. 500. ..... There are a number of small political parties, including the Taiwan .... in China, and more than 70000 Taiwan companies have operations there. .... In keeping with our one China policy, the U.S. does not support Taiwan ..."
 
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indian banking and finance sector is very powerful, infact more than chinese. and investment in finance sector is also high.

I don't think that this claim is true.

China's ICBC is world's most-profitable bank

icbctowerinhongkongreds.jpg

From left: Bank of China, ICBC, and Citibank towers in Hong Kong

chinaconstructionbank20.jpg

China Construction Bank is world's second most-profitable bank

banksq.jpg

World's most-profitable banks for 2009

bankmarketcapitalizatio.gif

World's-largest bank market-capitalization

Chinese banks turning into modern global financial giants - The China Post

"Chinese banks turning into modern global financial giants
Updated Tuesday, July 20, 2010 1:12 pm TWN, By Grace Ng, The Straits Times/Asia News Network

BEIJING -- Chinese folklore claims the world's first modern bank — complete with credit issuance and central bank regulation — originated in the early 11th century, amid flourishing cross-border trade during the Yuan dynasty.

Almost a millennium later, a rising dragon economy wants to show off to the world its modern banking giants, just as it did with other inventions from the printing press to gunpowder — which the Middle Kingdom claims credit for and which the West capitalized on.

And everyone is watching in awe.

China has the world's most profitable bank, four of the world's top 10 banks by market value, some of the world's largest bank loan books — and now, one of its newly listed banks may claim the title of the world's largest initial public offering.

With the debut of Agricultural Bank of China (AgBank), which raised US$19.2 billion, in Hong Kong and Shanghai last week, China's five state-owned listed behemoths are now squarely dominating the global banking domain.

By their sheer asset size, these lenders have ruled the roost for a few years.

The combined assets of Industrial and Commercial Bank of China (ICBC), China Construction Bank Corp (CCB), Bank of China (BOC), Bank of Communications and AgBank totaled 43 trillion yuan (US$6.3 trillion) as of the end of March.

This accounts for half of the domestic banking sector and is roughly the size of China's gross domestic product last year.

Their meteoric rise has confounded market watchers worldwide.

In just two decades, they have transformed themselves from debt-ridden basket cases financing wastrel state-owned enterprises, into some of the world's most profitable outfits.

ICBC, for instance, topped The Banker's annual rankings as the world's most profitable bank, with pre-tax earnings of US$24.5 billion last year, followed by CCB with US$20.3 billion.

It is an impressive show of earnings power, even if their internal controls and systems may still not be on a par with those of the West.

“The irony is that 10 years ago, China's banks were among the weakest in the world and today they are among the strongest, however primitive their system,” Pieter Bottelier, an economics professor at Johns Hopkins University and former World Bank official, told Newsweek last year.

Chinese banks have also become significantly more sophisticated in recent years.

While retail lending activities still make up the bulk of revenue — up to about 80 percent for the rural-focused banks — they are moving into areas like corporate and investment banking by recruiting aggressively and occasionally poaching whole teams from Western banks.

ICBC recently recruited banking star Zhang Hongli — former chairman of Deutsche Bank's China operations — as deputy president, to beef up its investment banking operations.

Meanwhile, BOC's investment bank is making a name for itself in Hong Kong. It was one of eight underwriters for Hong Kong-listed UC Rusal's US$2.55 billion flotation in January.

And five Chinese banks — both state-owned and state-linked ones — are in the top 10 core investment banking revenue earners in Asia excluding Japan, according to data tracker Dealogic.

The only area in which these state-owned banks have no foothold or state-boosted advantage is private banking.

“Which rich person in China is so stupid that he would let a state-owned bank manage his money?” asked one Hong Kong banker who declined to be named.

“But for investment and corporate banking, some of the bigger players like ICBC may well be keen rivals to Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan for Asian mandates in the next five to 10 years,” he added.

For foreign investors, Chinese bank stocks may look like a must-have part of their portfolios, to tap China's heady economic growth over the coming years.

Chinese Academy of Social Sciences research fellow Yi Xianrong said: “Chinese banks are profitable and they are a much safer bet than Western bank stocks

“At the very least, when you say the Chinese banks are too big to fail, you know it's true — the Chinese government will never let them fail.”

Yet even with China's top-three listed banks all posting record first-quarter earnings, and AgBank saying before its IPO that it expects a 40 percent jump in first-half net profits compared to last year, to 46 billion yuan, Chinese bank shares have had a rough year in the stock markets.

Some are hovering near 52-week lows, while their price-to-book ratios have fallen to less than two since April.

This is lower than other Hong Kong-traded bank shares such as Hang Seng Bank, which are trading at more than three times their book value.

It is because of this that some analysts have turned bullish on Chinese bank stocks. CCB's attractive valuation has won it “buy” or “overweight” ratings from the majority of analysts recently polled by Starmine, a company that tracks the performance and calls of equity analysts.

But others are worried about the risks of rising non-performing loans at Chinese banks.

“The banks lent heavily to the property sector and to fund local government projects in the stimulus measures last year. These areas may face problems this year, and the banks will face significant risks,” said finance professor Mei Jun of Renmin University.

As the big state-owned banks push on with their ambitions to expand operations abroad, especially in emerging markets from Africa to Latin America, there are also concerns about whether they are overstretched and overly exposed to global financial sector risks.

“Chinese banks are now shielded because they are focused on the domestic market, where the government can help protect their market share,” said Professor Li Jiming of Zhejiang University City College's business school.

Their risks will rise as they expand abroad, “but it is the price they must pay — and want to pay for world domination,” said Hong Kong-based analyst Charlie Chu."
 
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Some excellent ideas there Martian2. :tup:

One of the great things about mass industrialization, is that it leads to urbanization.

When populations are concentrated in urban areas, suddenly "infrastructure" becomes so much more cost effective. Water, roads, electricity, etc. can be easily supplied to a large number of people at minimal cost.

We have seen this pattern all over East Asia, and in the Western world as well, i.e. industrialization followed by urbanization.

In large Chinese cities like Beijing/Shanghai/Hong Kong, you can see how "optimized" the infrastructure is, and the enormous numbers of people this infrastructure can sustain.

too bad so many brainwashed people hate that, think its crowded, and believe the american way of 1 person taking up 300 m2 of space, eating enough to feed an entire african village and growing fat is the way to go. unfortunately, this is impossible to reverse.
 
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