How China Beat India in Race for Success------A 1997 Article That Predicted Today

[Dungeness]

THIS.
That para alone sums up why China is where it is today and where India is.China-it's leaders and people- achieve what they speak of and in many ways speak after they have done the work.Whereas the Indian leaders and their citizenry usually restrict themselves to shooting their mouths off and never do much else.

This article is 18 years old now. How much India 's mindset or social structure has changed since then. I guess what I am really interested in is how much the poorest segment of India society are better off today then 18 years ago, in terms of financial well beings, civil liberty, and social equity. I don't seem to be able to get Indian members here to discuss about it. They are busy either cheering for new rocket launch and new weapon purchasing, or counting billionaires, or trashing neighboring countries.

When I was talking to you in the other thread about the differences between ST and mainland India, I got an impression that many of the social ills that plague the India as whole back then, is still dragging India's feet today. 18 years did not seem to make a dent on all that. And 18 years from now, will we still feel many points in this article still stand true? Is India on the right path to be a civilized modern society, or it will still be a country mixed with capitalism, feudalism, or even serfdom? Will the caste system still be part of social norms even 100 year after its outlaw?

By the way, the translation of the previous discussion have been spread to other websites in China. Many people just copied them and put on their own websites now, and I am happy for that.

 

[Abotani]

This article is 18 years old now. How much India 's mindset or social structure has changed since then. I guess what I am really interested in is how much the poorest segment of India society are better off today then 18 years ago, in terms of financial well beings, civil liberty, and social equity. I don't seem to be able to get Indian members here to discuss about it. They are busy either cheering for new rocket launch and new weapon purchasing, or counting billionaires, or trashing neighboring countries.

When I was talking to you in the other thread about the differences between ST and mainland India, I got an impression that many of the social ills that plague the India as whole back then, is still dragging India's feet today. 18 years did not seem to make a dent on all that. And 18 years from now, will we still feel many points in this article still stand true? Is India on the right path to be a civilized modern society, or it will still be a country mixed with capitalism, feudalism, or even serfdom? Will the caste system still be part of social norms even 100 year after its outlaw?

By the way, the translation of the previous discussion have been spread to other websites in China. Many people just copied them and put on their own websites now, and I am happy for that.

India's social structure and divisions?Not much has changed to be honest.Earlier it used to be out and about which was better in my opinion as people could still get their grievances across each other.Now,it's more subtle and far more biting than ever,the partial implementation of laws and a misguided sense of common nation hood among the jingos and the resultant militant nationalism may attempt to stamp out the distribution of power that keeps the various power blocks in India satisfied (the various ethnic,religio-social,regional divisions are mind boggling)

With India becoming increasingly capitalist and abandoning the few social poverty alleviation schemes that used to work,the poor are in a catch 22 situation.The increased economic growth does lead to some increase in their wages but inflation and removal of subsidies eats away a large chunk of the new income.Add to that the classification of BPL and APL citizens,the former is used to refer to the desperately poor while the latter is used to refer to poor but not as poor as the former.In theory it is a fine system as it can be used to reach and allocate resources when and where needed most.

However,when one reads the fine print the classification comes out as a joke.Some starving families are written as APL in Gov data to lift up figures while India,owing to it's corruption,has some middle class families classifying as BPL!!When one says some,it usually means millions and tens of millions in India.How does that happen?To classify as not poor all you have to do is have an income of about half a dollar per day which you have to use to feed,clothe,pay for housing,healthcare and everything else.Needless to say,at half a dollar one is hard pressed to even feed oneself two times a day in India let alone the rest of the above.Do note that poverty line is even lower for rural regions.The half dollar mark is for urban regions!!

As far as civil liberty and social equity is concerned,one just needs a google search on the prevalent caste discrimination and other forms of discrimination.A place where people don't get accommodation or are killed often because they eat a particular food,dress or look a certain way or gasp!! on their marital status doesn't rank very high as far as civil liberty and social equity is concerned.No matter what the paper laws and regulations say,the ground reality speaks otherwise.

India in this sense is a lot like former Yugoslavia-a place with huge diversity that seems peaceful and stable but the underlying divisions can be lethal.

Is India on the right path to be a civilized modern society, or it will still be a country mixed with capitalism, feudalism, or even serfdom? Will the caste system still be part of social norms even 100 year after its outlaw?

India was,is and will likely remain a paradox,a place where capitalism exists along with feudalism and covert serfdom for a long time to come.This is nothing new,any indophile will admit to that-India is a full of contradictions.
Caste system will most likely remain in place for at least 2 generations more and have societal sanction even though it may be outlawed in theory.To give an idea,people still marry and place ads for partners on the basis of caste,ethnicity and skin colour!!And it is societally accepted and encouraged as a virtue!!!
A century from now?Hard to say as the artificial Union may have long imploded in a century.

 

[Dungeness]

India's social structure and divisions?Not much has changed to be honest.Earlier it used to be out and about which was better in my opinion as people could still get their grievances across each other.Now,it's more subtle and far more biting than ever,the partial implementation of laws and a misguided sense of common nation hood among the jingos and the resultant militant nationalism may attempt to stamp out the distribution of power that keeps the various power blocks in India satisfied (the various ethnic,religio-social,regional divisions are mind boggling)

With India becoming increasingly capitalist and abandoning the few social poverty alleviation schemes that used to work,the poor are in a catch 22 situation.The increased economic growth does lead to some increase in their wages but inflation and removal of subsidies eats away a large chunk of the new income.Add to that the classification of BPL and APL citizens,the former is used to refer to the desperately poor while the latter is used to refer to poor but not as poor as the former.In theory it is a fine system as it can be used to reach and allocate resources when and where needed most.

However,when one reads the fine print the classification comes out as a joke.Some starving families are written as APL in Gov data to lift up figures while India,owing to it's corruption,has some middle class families classifying as BPL!!When one says some,it usually means millions and tens of millions in India.How does that happen?To classify as not poor all you have to do is have an income of about half a dollar per day which you have to use to feed,clothe,pay for housing,healthcare and everything else.Needless to say,at half a dollar one is hard pressed to even feed oneself two times a day in India let alone the rest of the above.Do note that poverty line is even lower for rural regions.The half dollar mark is for urban regions!!

As far as civil liberty and social equity is concerned,one just needs a google search on the prevalent caste discrimination and other forms of discrimination.A place where people don't get accommodation or are killed often because they eat a particular food,dress or look a certain way or gasp!! on their marital status doesn't rank very high as far as civil liberty and social equity is concerned.No matter what the paper laws and regulations say,the ground reality speaks otherwise.

India in this sense is a lot like former Yugoslavia-a place with huge diversity that seems peaceful and stable but the underlying divisions can be lethal.



India was,is and will likely remain a paradox,a place where capitalism exists along with feudalism and covert serfdom for a long time to come.This is nothing new,any indophile will admit to that-India is a full of contradictions.
Caste system will most likely remain in place for at least 2 generations more and have societal sanction even though it may be outlawed in theory.A century from now?Hard to say as the artificial Union may have long imploded in a century.

My friend, thank you very much for all these posts, and i will read very carefully and translate into Chinese. I think for those Chinese people who care about south Tibet, they will be also interested in what is in current day India.

 

[Shotgunner51]

I came across this very old article published on 1997 LA Times, in commemorating 50th anniversary of India Independence. I believe it withstand the test of time, and its conclusion predicted today's gaping difference between two countries. It is worthwhile for Indian and Chinese members alike to read through it today, and come to some sort of consensus about the future of two great nations.
.......................................................................
How China Beat India in Race for Success
Half a century ago, Asia's giants took divergent paths to the future. Today, India ponders why it lags so badly in improving the lives of its people.
August 10, 1997|RONE TEMPEST | TIMES STAFF WRITER

Thanks for your post bro, it's an interesting read. Note ignorant western journalists habitually put these two completely different countries on the same scale, other than serving their self-entertainment there's no pragmatic use out of it. China is a Confucius East Asian country, article like this is just one form of China bashing, very normal though, well just ignore it.

I would like to read more articles about how China fares behind other East Asian peers, that would provide more useful and pragmatic directions for our country.

 

[Dungeness]

Thanks for your post bro, it's an interesting read. Note ignorant western journalists habitually put these two completely different countries on the same scale, other than serving their self-entertainment there's no pragmatic use out of it. China is a Confucius East Asian country, article like this is just one form of China bashing, very normal though, well just ignore it.

Respectfully disagree. There are many good reasons that these two countries have been constantly put on scale to weight out each other. Since this article is 18 years old, it actually serves as a testimony that can be checked against today's reality, and hopefully it will give us some insights into the future of our biggest neighbor and potential competitor. At the time this article was written, the two countries were on somewhat similar footing in terms of GDP etc, and this article was different from regular west rant about China Collapsing, it actually came to a different conclusion from the rest which proven to be closer to the today's reality with the passing time.

I have tried to contact the original author, in hoping he could do a similar report 18 years after the original writing, but was told he had retired. It would have been an interesting read! Abotani's posts are very interesting too as they provide a different vintage point from inside of India, apart from usual Indian Internet warriors boasting. I have been always fascinated about these two giant countries with similar history and population but with very different governing systems, and both are in a gigantic human experiment that is watched by many around the world with interest.

Thanks for input, bro!

 

[Shotgunner51]

Respectfully disagree. There are many good reasons that these two countries have been constantly put on scale to weight out each other. Since this article is 18 years old, it actually serves as a testimony that can be checked against today's reality, and hopefully it will give us some insights into the future of our biggest neighbor and potential competitor. At the time this article was written, the two countries were in similar footing in terms GDP etc, and this article was different from regular west rant about China Collapsing, it actually came to a different conclusion from the rest which proven to be closer to the today's reality with the passing time.

I have tried to contact the original author, in hoping he could do a similar report 18 years after the original writing, but was told he had retired. It would be an interesting read! Abotani's posts are very interesting too as they provide a different vintage point from inside of India, apart from usual Indian Internet warriors boasting. I have been always fascinated about these two countries with similar history and population but with different governing systems, and both are in a gigantic experiments that is watched by many with all perspective.

Thanks for input, bro!

Bro you made some good points there, thanks!

Here is a case, Korea vs Ghana:

"...The Economist pointed out that, in 1957, Ghana, then the wealthiest nation in Sub-Saharan Africa, had a per capita income almost equal to that of South Korea (US $490 against US $491 in 1980 dollars).."

" ...Most who studied under Carl Rosberg in the early 1960s at the University of California/Berkeley shared his optimism about the future of Africa...."​

Ghana and South KoreaExplaining Development Disparities An Essay in Honor of Carl Rosberg

Ghana and South Korea:Explaining Development Disparities An Essay in Honor of Carl Rosberg | DeepDyve​

Not directing at anyone, just emotionally I just find it distasteful by hyphenating China with another completely different country. Try show Korea-Ghana comparison to a Korean, and see his response. Well western journalism or "academics" might find it amusing and feel-good, bashing China, bracketing China with India, anyway it's their article, their readership, but not a thing will change about China.

 

[HongWu002]

China does not consider India a peer rival. A nuisance needing a spanking perhaps. There is no comparison. China is a temporate zone country. It's like comparing United States and Mexico.

 

[dray]

My friend, thank you very much for all these posts, and i will read very carefully and translate into Chinese. I think for those Chinese people who care about south Tibet, they will be also interested in what is in current day India.

That member is not an Indian, this forum is full of false-flaggers...

 

[Dungeness]

That member is not an Indian, this forum is full of false-flaggers...

That is true, he doesn't consider himself an Indian, nor Indians treat them as ones. He is from the area that he considers a colony of India. Technically, he is an India citizen, therefore, he is not a false-flagger.

That member is not an Indian, this forum is full of false-flaggers...

Let's discuss the article itself in regards to the inclusive development. I would love to read your point of views.

 

[dray]

That is true, he doesn't consider himself an Indian, nor Indians treat them as ones. He is from the area that he considers a colony of India. Technically, he is an India citizen, therefore, he is not a false-flagger.

He claims so, all false-flaggers claim that they are real. There are genuine Indian members here from that area.

Let's discuss the article itself in regards to the inclusive development. I would love to read your point of views.

It's pointless here...just know this that we are not interested in Chinese political system even if there is a guarantee of growing our economy by 10 times in next 10 years.

 

[Dungeness]

He claims so, all false-flaggers claim that they are real. There are genuine Indian members here from that area.



It's pointless here...just know this that we are not interested in Chinese political system even if there is a guarantee of growing our economy by 10 times in next 10 years.

Well, he seems to be very knowledgeable about that part of world currently under India's control, and labeling other member as "false-flagger" doesn't really change this very fact, or dose it?

OK, if you don't care how your own country's development will be in the future, we really don't have the common interest on this subject. I just thought every Indian has a "Superpower Dream“ in heart.

Quote from the article: Meanwhile, a working measure of success for the two titans may lie in the question posed by former U.S. diplomat Jay Taylor in his 1987 book, "The Dragon and the Wild Goose," which compares the nations: "Would you rather be the poorest man in China or in India?"

Thanks though, and we can always talk about new weapons and space programs.

 

[bolo]

Well, he seems to be very knowledgeable about that part of world currently under India's control, and labeling other member as "false-flagger" doesn't really change this very fact, or dose it?

OK, if you don't care how your own country's development will be in the future, we really don't have the common interest on this subject. I just thought every Indian has a "Superpower Dream“ in heart.

Thanks though, and we can always talk about new weapons and space programs.

Abotani lives in occupied South Tibet.

 

[Dungeness]

China does not consider India a peer rival. A nuisance needing a spanking perhaps. There is no comparison. China is a temporate zone country. It's like comparing United States and Mexico.

You are not alone. Many Chinese people today snub India as a lesser country not worthy comparing with, some may even think two countries are not in the same order of magnitude. But how many of us could be so confident 18 years ago and envision the huge difference today between these two giants? And more importantly, what made China as it is today that India doesn't have?

 

[Sky lord]

The race is not even half done yet, it's like trying to decide the winner of a marathon at the 5 mile mark.

Personally, I hope both countries do well. Indians and Chinese together make up 40% of humanity and if both countries can protect the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness of its citizens, if both countries protects its environment, if both countries educate its population to be able to give back to the world, if both countries can provide healthcare then it would be an amazing good thing for everyone and a new age for mankind on this planet.

 

[Tiger Genie]

As the article clear says, the brutal measures of China has a lot to do with it. And Deng Xiaping's meticulous cultivation of manufacturing contracts regardless of whatever human costs.

India simply did not do that and hence is settling for a slower pace of economic development. Nothing wrong with that.

Let's not forget - China has undertaken significant risks too, so they will have to continue managing the economy and population tight