how can a PAF eagale can lock on AN IAF su-30!

[blain2]

See this. Hopefully you can read urdu, if you cannot, then I will loosely translate here:

BBCUrdu.com | ??????? | ?????? ??????????? ?????? ?????

بعض ذرائع کا یہ بھی کہنا ہے کہ ایڈمرل مولن کو اس بھارتی ایس۔یو تیس جہاز کی تصاویر بھی دکھائی گئیں جو تمام اسلحے سے لیس پاکستان کے صوبے پنجاب کے مرکز میں واقع فوجی چھاؤنی کھاریاں کے اوپر سے پرواز کر رہا تھا۔

عسکری ذرائع کے مطابق جس جہاز نے بارہ دسمبر کے روز لاہور سیکٹر میں پاکستان کی فضائی حدود کی خلاف ورزی کی تھی اسے پہلے سے منتظر پاکستانی لڑاکا طیاروں نے اپنی ’فائرنگ رینج’ میں لے لیا تھا لیکن مار گرانے سے پہلے دی جانے والی تنبیہ پر اس طیارے نے واپسی کا راستہ اختیار کر لیا تھا۔ اس بھارتی طیارے کو مگ انتیس جہازوں کی ایک ٹکڑی کی پشت پناہی یا بیک اپ سپورٹ بھی حاصل تھی جو بھارتی فضائی حدود سے یہ منظر دیکھ رہے تھے۔

"Some sources have also mentioned that Admiral Mullen was shown the photos of an Indian Su-30, fully loaded with ordnance, flying over the Pakistani province of Punjab.....

According to military sources, the aircraft which violated Pakistani airspace in the Lahore sector on 12 December was locked on, however prior to it being shot down, it was given a warning upon which the aircraft returned. This aircraft was backed up by a flight of Mig-29s who were witnessing this event from within the Indian airspace."

 

[qsaark]

See this. Hopefully you can read urdu, if you cannot, then I will transliterate here:

BBCUrdu.com | ??????? | ?????? ??????????? ?????? ?????

بعض ذرائع کا یہ بھی کہنا ہے کہ ایڈمرل مولن کو اس بھارتی ایس۔یو تیس جہاز کی تصاویر بھی دکھائی گئیں جو تمام اسلحے سے لیس پاکستان کے صوبے پنجاب کے مرکز میں واقع فوجی چھاؤنی کھاریاں کے اوپر سے پرواز کر رہا تھا۔

عسکری ذرائع کے مطابق جس جہاز نے بارہ دسمبر کے روز لاہور سیکٹر میں پاکستان کی فضائی حدود کی خلاف ورزی کی تھی اسے پہلے سے منتظر پاکستانی لڑاکا طیاروں نے اپنی ’فائرنگ رینج’ میں لے لیا تھا لیکن مار گرانے سے پہلے دی جانے والی تنبیہ پر اس طیارے نے واپسی کا راستہ اختیار کر لیا تھا۔ اس بھارتی طیارے کو مگ انتیس جہازوں کی ایک ٹکڑی کی پشت پناہی یا بیک اپ سپورٹ بھی حاصل تھی جو بھارتی فضائی حدود سے یہ منظر دیکھ رہے تھے۔

According to some sources (which?). Something reported by the BBC doesn’t make it any more credible. In fact, I have always found discrepancies between the BBC English reports and Urdu reports. Typical of british hypocrisy. So lets not talk about unconfirmed reports.

 

[Jihad]

Bah, the nerves these people have violating our airspace.
Kayani should definitely give the order next time to bring the intruders down.
Also, batmannow, Sir, have you gotten your desired answer?
It looks like our F16s are very well capable of holding off any Indian jet including the SU-30, which gives me a good and safe feeling.

 

[blain2]

According to some sources (which?). Something reported by the BBC doesn’t make it any more credible. In fact, I have always found discrepancies between the BBC English reports and Urdu reports. So lets not talk about unconfirmed reports.

It is as credible as any other report in the western media. Make what you will of it, I think its credible enough given the circumstances and vigilance on the part of the PAF.

 

[Kumar]

Bah, the nerves these people have violating our airspace.
Kayani should definitely give the order next time to bring the intruders down.
Also, batmannow, Sir, have you gotten your desired answer?
It looks like our F16s are very well capable of holding off any Indian jet including the SU-30, which gives me a good and safe feeling.

what about the drones that is killing in Pakistan? still you feel safe ?

first shot down that drones then talk about su-30

 

[TOPGUN]

what about the drones that is killing in Pakistan? still you feel safe ?

first shot down that drones then talk about su-30

Drones have nothing to do with this topic plzz stick with the topic if u want to share your views! furthermore, your su-30 was in the our airspace lucky that we didnt bring it down as u know we have before brought down your countires aircraft ! we are safe as always there is np there boss stick with the topic !!

 

[qsaark]

Allright, lets say the report of Su-30 MKI lock is correct. So What? PAF was alert, OK, under the circumstances was that surprising? No it was not. So what we learnt from this incident? That F-16 can kill a Su-30 MKI? under certain situations may be Yes. Anything else?????

The fact of the matter is, and in some post Mastankhan has also mentioned, that current fleet of PAF is no where near to what IAF currently operates. If Su-30 were under the orders of engaging PAF fighters, they could very well do that. Su-30 can see F-16s long before F-16s and can get them engage in BVR combat. They dont even have to leave their airspace to do that by the way. They were locked by the F-16s or whatever fighter proves nothing, not a single thing except that IAF was not engaging PAF period. The other part of the report says that Su-30 had support of 4 MiG-29s (flying in indian airspace). What those MiG-29s were doing? watching F-16s to lock on the Su-30 and possibly shooting it down? Why did'nt they attempt to engage the F-16s using their R77?

So what exactly was the motive of IAF? in the media, it is reported that they were probing PAF's vigilance? or possibly provoking Pakistan/PAF. OK, it might be right, but they could achieve that by simply sending some drone or some dying MiG-21. Why would they send their best fighter? So PAF can shoot it down and score a psychological point over India that look, we can even shoot down the pride of your Airforce.

I mean, come on, why talking about something that has so many flaws

 

[BATMAN]

what about the drones that is killing in Pakistan? still you feel safe ?
first shot down that drones then talk about su-30

drones are not targeting our key assets.
We can shoot at su-30 and drone both as we deem neccessary.
next time we will shoot down the intruding indai A/C. message has been sent and received.

 

[paritosh]

i sometimes feel that you people jump to conclusions very quickly and that 99% of these conclusions infer that "pakistan is better than india"...is there any logic that supports the intrusion being not a mistake...why would zardari swallow such a huge incident if it was indeed what you claim it was?
why would we send a single aircraft pitted against the whole PAF when we know that PAf is at high alert?what purpose does it serve?
dont you think that just like PAf the IAf was conducting flights near the border region...two of which resulted in these incidents.There was nothing tha a single su30 or a mirage would've achieved that day...even after being armed to the teeth...and airforce pilots on missions dont get "shooed away"...they do their jobs
a radar lock doesnt mean a sure-shot kill...and a radar lock has got nothing to do with the pilot's skill.as far as the aircrafts are concerned...a different story.

 

[qsaark]

i sometimes feel that you people jump to conclusions very quickly.......as the aircrafts are concerned...a different story.

This not something only associated with Pakistanis, Indians (exceptions are always there) are as much quick in drawing conclusions and have the same complex that India is superior. In fact, they go one step further and think that India is not only better than Pakistan but is better than all the countries of the world. One example is my next door neighbours. We live in Atlanta and she compares Atlanta with Delhi. I believe there would be some areas in Delhi which can be compared with Atlanta (such pockets also exist in Pakistani cities) but in general there is no comparison. I can say this because never once I have seen cows and donkeys and pigs and hordes of baggers roaming around on the streets of Atlanta.

 

[hasang20]

1965,71 PAF was outnumberd by 1:3 and had the technology edge too IAF always and have been supirior to PAF but not in battles.

 

[blain2]

what about the drones that is killing in Pakistan? still you feel safe ?

first shot down that drones then talk about su-30

We did test out our abilities to take on the UAVs. The last one that we shot down (which proves we are quite capable of it) interestingly enough had the IAF markings on it.

 

[blain2]

Allright, lets say the report of Su-30 MKI lock is correct. So What? PAF was alert, OK, under the circumstances was that surprising? No it was not. So what we learnt from this incident? That F-16 can kill a Su-30 MKI? under certain situations may be Yes. Anything else?????

The fact of the matter is, and in some post Mastankhan has also mentioned, that current fleet of PAF is no where near to what IAF currently operates. If Su-30 were under the orders of engaging PAF fighters, they could very well do that. Su-30 can see F-16s long before F-16s and can get them engage in BVR combat. They dont even have to leave their airspace to do that by the way. They were locked by the F-16s or whatever fighter proves nothing, not a single thing except that IAF was not engaging PAF period. The other part of the report says that Su-30 had support of 4 MiG-29s (flying in indian airspace). What those MiG-29s were doing? watching F-16s to lock on the Su-30 and possibly shooting it down? Why did'nt they attempt to engage the F-16s using their R77?

So what exactly was the motive of IAF? in the media, it is reported that they were probing PAF's vigilance? or possibly provoking Pakistan/PAF. OK, it might be right, but they could achieve that by simply sending some drone or some dying MiG-21. Why would they send their best fighter? So PAF can shoot it down and score a psychological point over India that look, we can even shoot down the pride of your Airforce.

I mean, come on, why talking about something that has so many flaws

My friend,

Despite your tendency to dump this incident into the "so what" category so quickly, I would say there were very many reasons as to why this happened and why it was given immense PR exposure.

The report's point about the lock-on is not the crux of the report, rather it was the intent that was communicated by the Pakistan side to the Indian side. IAF can sit on their side all day long and try to lock-on at stand-off ranges, but when they need to come over the Pakistani air space to carry on a strike, they would have to contend with more aircraft than they could handle (until and unless this was a full-scale war in which they too would be sending numerous aircraft/strike packages). However given the talk of a pre-emptive, precision strike, it made sense for the Pakistani side to show their capability and the intent to stop any ingress.

It matters little how many aircraft PAF loses in this effort, but IAF would not be allowed to fly in, conduct their strikes and go back home without any losses. The fact that we shadowed them, had them in our WEZ or had a lock on them are all technical points. The intent of those commenting from the Pakistan side was just to get the message across that any Indian strike would be a messy affair.

The other part of the report says that Su-30 had support of 4 MiG-29s (flying in indian airspace). What those MiG-29s were doing? watching F-16s to lock on the Su-30 and possibly shooting it down? Why did'nt they attempt to engage the F-16s using their R77

The situation as described only discussed the disposition of the Indian aircraft, it does not make sense for the Pakistani officials to disclose how the PAF aircraft were positioned to take on the IAF aircraft. As such there is a considerable possibility that the PAF aircraft were backed up by others as well (which usually is the case and in times such as these, I can bet my life on it that we too had top cover).

So what exactly was the motive of IAF? in the media, it is reported that they were probing PAF's vigilance? or possibly provoking Pakistan/PAF. OK, it might be right, but they could achieve that by simply sending some drone or some dying MiG-21. Why would they send their best fighter? So PAF can shoot it down and score a psychological point over India that look, we can even shoot down the pride of your Airforce.

IAF was probing PAF air defences. What else would they be doing by sending lone or pairs of aircraft into the Pakistani airspace? Also when you send an aircraft to probe air defences, its not done just so the pilot can flick off the other side. The aircraft conducting such sorties is equipped to carry out snooping using the ELINT gear on board. Currently two aircraft that are quite capable of doing this on the IAF side are the MKI and Mirage 2000. The idea is to get in there, see what frequencies are being used to track the aircraft, what the reaction time is etc. etc. Usually when you are involved in such a risky sort of a mission profile, you send the aircraft which is best equipped to deal with any eventuality. In this case it would be the aircraft with the best self-defence capability (both from a sensor and weapons standpoint).

If things were not so hot then this sort of an incident would have been brushed aside. Now I am not suggesting that the lock-on is something great. Its not. It is not equal to us shooting an aircraft down. We do not know if the other aircraft was using evasive maneuvers etc., however what we can surmise is the fact that PAF were ready regardless of how limited you or anyone else think their capabilities are.

 

[blain2]

i sometimes feel that you people jump to conclusions very quickly and that 99% of these conclusions infer that "pakistan is better than india"...is there any logic that supports the intrusion being not a mistake...why would zardari swallow such a huge incident if it was indeed what you claim it was?
why would we send a single aircraft pitted against the whole PAF when we know that PAf is at high alert?what purpose does it serve?
dont you think that just like PAf the IAf was conducting flights near the border region...two of which resulted in these incidents.There was nothing tha a single su30 or a mirage would've achieved that day...even after being armed to the teeth...and airforce pilots on missions dont get "shooed away"...they do their jobs
a radar lock doesnt mean a sure-shot kill...and a radar lock has got nothing to do with the pilot's skill.as far as the aircrafts are concerned...a different story.

Only if things were that simple. You send your aircraft to unnerve the other side, to gather ELINT, to check out their reaction time, all under the cover of the excuse termed "violation of Technical nature".

Wars have been won in such manners. Those who have studied the conduct of CA and SEAD operations in contemporary air wars know what flights like these mean. We would be stupid to ignore them.

Also, when you have a few aircraft with cocky pilots on your tail and you are in their air space in very tense times, you take the birdie they offer you and you gracefully exit. There are no ifs and buts about that. What happens after the fact is something that others have to worry about. Not those who are in the theater at the time. Good sense prevailed on both sides and nothing bad happened and that is a good thing. However don't insult the intelligence over here by suggesting that IAF flew their aircraft into the Pakistani airspace in extremely tense times just so they could come over and say hello to us. An intelligence mission is just as bad as in incoming strike package from a defense planner's standpoint. You just don't let the other side come in, snoop around and let them off without any noise.

 

[Muradk]

i sometimes feel that you people jump to conclusions very quickly and that 99% of these conclusions infer that "pakistan is better than india"...is there any logic that supports the intrusion being not a mistake...why would zardari swallow such a huge incident if it was indeed what you claim it was?
why would we send a single aircraft pitted against the whole PAF when we know that PAf is at high alert?what purpose does it serve?
dont you think that just like PAf the IAf was conducting flights near the border region...two of which resulted in these incidents.There was nothing tha a single su30 or a mirage would've achieved that day...even after being armed to the teeth...and airforce pilots on missions dont get "shooed away"...they do their jobs
a radar lock doesnt mean a sure-shot kill...and a radar lock has got nothing to do with the pilot's skill.as far as the aircrafts are concerned...a different story.

First the IAF was not expecting such a response from PAF.
I don't think that people of Pakistan or members of this forum thinks pakistan is better than India
F-16 vs a SU is like A mouse running after an elephant, One wrong move from either pilot will be his last.