How Asia-Pacific Publics See Each Other and Their National Leaders

[FairAndUnbiased]

Yes, Chinese look down and insult Vietnamese on every Chinese forum, this is a general agreement. I believe this hate is mutual. But Phillipines are actually different, we don't care about them like Vietnamese, they are far from our attentions, so do they.

I don't have any problem with Vietnamese or Filipinos overseas. I just don't like their regimes.

 

[LowPost]

Well said, mate.

Not to say that likes of Xinhua, Sputnik and RT are unbiased but what can they do except fight fire with fire and propaganda with propaganda. However their shorter reach and primacy of English Language at global stage makes their job a bit more difficult.

RT's and Sputnik's potential to become even more popular are unfortunately curbed by the common belief that both are "propaganda mouthpieces of the Kremlin and thus not to be trusted". Nevertheless, I think they're doing good at the moment as RT's YouTube channel has over 1.5 million subscribers and Xinhua's Twitter account is followed by more than 2.5 million Twitter users.

Indian media today is basically owned by major US networks either openly in case of CNN or proxy investments hence you might see somewhat warped views of Indian posters on PDF regarding China.

Oh, that explains a lot of things. Can you tell me which Indian news sources are owned by which American corporations? With regards to world politics, India is caught in the middle between the US and Russia from what I can see so far. So is this a tool used by the White House to woo India away from Moscow?

IIRC you said that most you know about China's political system is taken from Western or Indian sources. Since we're dealing with American propaganda here this needs to be changed, I guess.

 

[Cossack25A1]

That is surprising, that the statistics show we Filipinos favor China than India... It may have something to do with BPO competition.

 

[Spectre]

Oh, that explains a lot of things. Can you tell me which Indian news sources are owned by which American corporations? With regards to world politics, India is caught in the middle between the US and Russia from what I can see so far. So is this a tool used by the White House to woo India away from Moscow?

I would be glad to answer this question, as a Banker I have some knowledge about Foreign funding of Indian media groups which is not commonly known to common Indians

CNN - IBN is a joined venture of CNN with an Indian company.
NDTV - Is funded by a US based Bank, and there is extensive foreign shareholding in its parent company which is located in Mauritius.
Times Group and India today - Have massive US interests which i will not publicly disclose.
INX - Owned by a western PE group

In addition all media groups whether print or electronic owe their ad revenues to western multinational companies.

With regards to world politics, India has clearly positioned itself as an alternative to China. This is not a zero sum game but it is a obvious that both India and China have Billion Plus population and resource constraints. At some point in future they are going to be in conflict over resources. There is not enough space in the world to accommodate India and China equally.

For now India lags far behind China and it is US which is threatened by China hence is looking to contain China by propping India up as a main adversary so if things turn to worst case scenario US would have a major power in form of India in China's backyard which would relieve pressure on US.

China has adopted a similar strategy and propped up Pakistan with regards to India so that Pakistan keeps India busy.

Russia though highly relevant militarily, is a diminishing power. Russia's and EU's stars are waning while India and China's stars are waxing. US is fighting to keep its pre-eminence in Global arena in conceivable future.

Indian analysts have arrived at a conclusion that though they would not form any overt treaties or alliances with the west but in face of rising China, they would need western support to hold their own and protect their interests. Hence you see India changing its anti-west attitude which was prevalent upto mid 90s to pro-western one.

 

[Genesis]

Appreciate the sentiment.
Sino Indian ties are on the upswing. Recently security clearances were granted to Chinese companies which were pending under pervious administration. Steps are also being taken to enhance the quality and quantity of bilateral trade between us. So yes, our ties are improving at country level. With more economic interdependence and our history of cultural ties dating back thousand of years, things should look up further.

Cant say the same about PDF though we have to deal with the likes of beidou and shotgunner, and they outshout you my friend (not that it matters though). Lastly we have site administrators who have a stake in keeping the pot boiling between Chinese and Indian posters

Let's not brush the Indian China problem down to other people, the fundamental problem with India China, is essentially the same with China Japan.

After WW2, Japan re-industrialized and today is a developed economy, while China essentially began at the same time, though at a much lower base, was a victory nation, didn't.

After 1970s, India was in a better position to advance according to pretty much everyone and their grandmothers. India fell hopelessly behind as of today, and now having the previous upper hand in everything, is now on the outside looking in.

It is jealousy at play here. Don't tell me this isn't the main factor behind Chinese and Indians.

 

[Spectre]

Let's not brush the Indian China problem down to other people, the fundamental problem with India China, is essentially the same with China Japan.

After WW2, Japan re-industrialized and today is a developed economy, while China essentially began at the same time, though at a much lower base, was a victory nation, didn't.

After 1970s, India was in a better position to advance according to pretty much everyone and their grandmothers. India fell hopelessly behind as of today, and now having the previous upper hand in everything, is now on the outside looking in.

It is jealousy at play here. Don't tell me this isn't the main factor behind Chinese and Indians.

No, most common Indians admire China what for it has achieved and many of them earn their livelihood through import and retail of Chinese goods. Most Indians from upper strata like Media, Industrialists etc are jealous but they are less than 1%.

Issue between India and China are not even borders any more as per common people Though only thing which grates is their support to Pakistan. Things like blocking India at UN for sanctions against terrorist groups like LeT and JuD and being the primary opposition in UNSC to Indian membership is also some major irritants for the Govt.

Indian media also regularly hypes up any and all misunderstandings and confrontation at LAC like the one during Xi's visit to India.

Jealously is a factor but a not a major one in short.

 

[homagnibhatt]

Good to see some mature discussions on Sino-Indian relations. To the Chinese posters here, don't go by media potrayals, particularly of English language media. News media in itself has low penetration in India & ELM has even lesser reach. Regional language media has far wider reach.

Some posters here have commented on China admiration in ordinary people which is correct. IMO this admiration is reaching socio political circles. Our current PM is the most pro-China PM we had since Nehru. It doesn't mean everything is rosy but you will find Chinese people & businesses viewed less suspiciously than before.

Even in a wider context, our political system is undergoing a subtle change. Previously many voters would consider keeping the ruling political class in checking by voting opposition in local or other elections. winning, in the last few years most provincial elections are seeing one party majority or close to majority verdicts. Against all expectations BJP won majority in Parliament. After that victory BJP is winning many states by projecting the message that Centre and State govts should be of same party to ensure fast pace of development.

So, in effect there is a centralinsing tendency in Indian politics now. How does it relate to China? My view is that many people believe that India is not progressing due to a fractious polity & comparisons with Chinese polity and the advantages it has with one-party rule. There are many anecdotal and personal references to that effect. It doesn't mean that Indians wish to give up democracy. It just reflect the latent desire for centralisation which is getting voice via Modi.

So my point is that there is much more nuance to the Sino-Indian relations than is immediately visible via media.

 

[arbit]

Let's not brush the Indian China problem down to other people, the fundamental problem with India China, is essentially the same with China Japan.

After WW2, Japan re-industrialized and today is a developed economy, while China essentially began at the same time, though at a much lower base, was a victory nation, didn't.

After 1970s, India was in a better position to advance according to pretty much everyone and their grandmothers. India fell hopelessly behind as of today, and now having the previous upper hand in everything, is now on the outside looking in.

It is jealousy at play here. Don't tell me this isn't the main factor behind Chinese and Indians.

It isn't.

Its like me pontificating that you are jealous of US. Its important to differentiate between competition and jealousy.

See, you may feel jealous of Japan, because you two are too alike. You share everything from culture, cuisine, customs, language, sartorial style and what not. Its easy to identify with Japan and contrast its development with your lack of thereof.

Whereas though India and China have had cultural connects, there is no commonality between us. How much do you 'understand' us? Similarly, How much do We 'understand' you?
Not much. Right. So where will be the jealousy you speak of? Its only competition.

So the fundamental problem with India China is the same as between China US.
The fundamental problem with China Japan OTOH is the same as between pakistan India.

Most Indians from upper strata like Media, Industrialists etc are jealous but they are less than 1%.

How would you know?

 

[Aepsilons]

See, you may feel jealous of Japan, because you two are too alike. You share everything from culture, cuisine, customs, language, sartorial style and what not. Its easy to identify with Japan and contrast its development with your lack of thereof.

I must infer that tho Japan shares some similar cultural traits with China, Japan is unique and distinctly different to the Chinese state , as well as Japanese people are unique from Chinese people. Its important that we identify and recognize this dichotomy lest we allow erroneous generalizations to take root.


Regards.

 

[Genesis]

It isn't.

Its like me pontificating that you are jealous of US. Its important to differentiate between competition and jealousy.

See, you may feel jealous of Japan, because you two are too alike. You share everything from culture, cuisine, customs, language, sartorial style and what not. Its easy to identify with Japan and contrast its development with your lack of thereof.

Whereas though India and China have had cultural connects, there is no commonality between us. How much do you 'understand' us? Similarly, How much do We 'understand' you?
Not much. Right. So where will be the jealousy you speak of? Its only competition.

So the fundamental problem with India China is the same as between China US.
The fundamental problem with China Japan OTOH is the same as between pakistan India.



How would you know?

US was about 100 times richer than China when China started. I won't be jealous of Bolt running faster because we aren't in the same league. I would be of someone of similar caliber and circumstances that suddenly ran faster, or someone who is close to me.

Japan fits the closeness, India fits the similar caliber, which is especially true since democracy gave India a false sense of pride. Evident in Nehru's every interaction with China, and the various Indian experts during the 90s and early 2000s.

India China's dynamic stems from the 90s to 2000s in which every analyst was calling for Indian victory, they based this on our relative similar starting point, our population, our level of human development, but also the one contrast that made India appear better, which is your democratic system.

In terms of cultural, sure, China Japan and India Pakistan are similar, but India and China are similar in circumstances. I wouldn't have used the word jealousy had India not been so proud of it's democratic system.

It's a mixture of things that made me say what I said.

 

[Beidou2020]

China vs US is a competition where China wants the power of the US and shows no jealousy towards the US but admiration for its wealth and technological advancement.

China vs India is Indian jealousy towards China because India is looked at as a poor man's China by the world and this pisses off the brainwashed Indians. India wants to be like China. China tries its best not to be like India. Indians desperately want to know everything about China. Chinese didn't even know Indians care so much about China. Chinese feel insulted to be compared to India because India is a political and social failure. India wants the same attention and recognition that China gets globally. But India is rarely taken seriously by the West as a rising power in itself because the only time India becomes relevant is when it comes to containing China. West views China as its only global rival whereas India is thought of as a just a pawn to counter the West's global rival China.

When Western leaders go to India, China is front and centre of everything they discuss. When Western leaders come to China, India is not even in their mind. It's only about China.

China has no interest in India. Chinese don't care about Indians. Chinese members barely go to the Indian section of this forum as it doesn't interest Chinese members. Indian members are always in the Chinese section because they care about what China is doing. Chinese members when coming to PDF don't have anti-India feelings at all. Whereas Indians coming to PDF have rabid anti-China feelings. Chinese don't even know why Indians have such hatred. China has always cared about only Japan in Asia and US globally. Those are the only 2 countries China deeply cares about.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Let's not brush the Indian China problem down to other people, the fundamental problem with India China, is essentially the same with China Japan.

After WW2, Japan re-industrialized and today is a developed economy, while China essentially began at the same time, though at a much lower base, was a victory nation, didn't.

After 1970s, India was in a better position to advance according to pretty much everyone and their grandmothers. India fell hopelessly behind as of today, and now having the previous upper hand in everything, is now on the outside looking in.

It is jealousy at play here. Don't tell me this isn't the main factor behind Chinese and Indians.

No jealousy of Japan. Even if Japan was penniless we still dislike them. Japan was liked more in the 80's when they were much richer than now when they are only a little richer per capita and way behind overall. Vietnamese and Filipinos don't dislike Japan even though they were also treated brutally and are far poorer. And what about Koreans, are they jealous of Japan too?

The reason is much simpler. In high school, if a bully beat you up, then you started lifting weights and became stronger than the bully, are you going to care that the bully is rich? Will you forgive the bully if the bully keeps talking shit about you and saying "yeah I fucked up that little shit" even though now you can bench twice his weight?

It isn't.

Its like me pontificating that you are jealous of US. Its important to differentiate between competition and jealousy.

See, you may feel jealous of Japan, because you two are too alike. You share everything from culture, cuisine, customs, language, sartorial style and what not. Its easy to identify with Japan and contrast its development with your lack of thereof.

Whereas though India and China have had cultural connects, there is no commonality between us. How much do you 'understand' us? Similarly, How much do We 'understand' you?
Not much. Right. So where will be the jealousy you speak of? Its only competition.

So the fundamental problem with India China is the same as between China US.
The fundamental problem with China Japan OTOH is the same as between pakistan India.



How would you know?

Nope you are right. Jealousy doesn't fit into national policy lol. The main cause of conflict between China and India is mostly media manipulation and the border issue. Solve those, solve the problem. It isn't China that declared India had to be held down to preserve resources, it was the US. India-Pakistan is more like PRC-ROC. India-China is not much of a conflict I'd say.

Seriously if Indians would just shut the **** up, most Chinese would regard you as a curious, if somewhat dangerous, tourism country. Instead you keep jumping out and painting yourself as a target. That is a very bad idea.

China vs US is a competition where China wants the power of the US and shows no jealousy towards the US but admiration for its wealth and technological advancement.

China vs India is Indian jealousy towards China because India is looked at as a poor man's China by the world and this pisses off the brainwashed Indians. India wants to be like China. China tries its best not to be like India. Indians desperately want to know everything about China. Chinese didn't even know Indians care so much about China. Chinese feel insulted to be compared to India because India is a political and social failure. India wants the same attention and recognition that China gets globally. But India is rarely taken seriously by the West as a rising power in itself because the only time India becomes relevant is when it comes to containing China. West views China as its only global rival whereas India is thought of as a just a pawn to counter the West's global rival China.

When Western leaders go to India, China is front and centre of everything they discuss. When Western leaders come to China, India is not even in their mind. It's only about China.

China has no interest in India. Chinese don't care about Indians. Chinese members barely go to the Indian section of this forum as it doesn't interest Chinese members. Indian members are always in the Chinese section because they care about what China is doing. Chinese members when coming to PDF don't have anti-India feelings at all. Whereas Indians coming to PDF have rabid anti-China feelings. Chinese don't even know why Indians have such hatred. China has always cared about only Japan in Asia and US globally. Those are the only 2 countries China deeply cares about.

We only care about Japan because they're dangerous militarists. If they would just shut up and apologize there is no issue. Instead the regime loves painting themselves as targets. Hatoyama tried to apologize in 2009 and got sacked by the establishment, so the hope for Japanese regime reforming from the inside is diminishing. Hatoyama represents the true hopes of Japanese people: he married a waitress from a Japanese restaraunt when he was studying at Stanford, rather than another aristocrat. Unfortunately nice people don't survive in Japanese politics.

 

[arbit]

I must infer that tho Japan shares some similar cultural traits with China, Japan is unique and distinctly different to the Chinese state , as well as Japanese people are unique from Chinese people. Its important that we identify and recognize this dichotomy lest we allow erroneous generalizations to take root.


Regards.

Nihonjin

I am acutely aware of the differences in culture between Japan and China. If you notice i have said 'similarities' and in no way negated your uniqueness vis a vis Chinese. My intent was to make a point about familiarity between various oriental cultures as compared to say Asians like Indians and pakistanis.

Lastly, trust me there is no erroneous generalization here. I have watched enough movies

US was about 100 times richer than China when China started. I won't be jealous of Bolt running faster because we aren't in the same league. I would be of someone of similar caliber and circumstances that suddenly ran faster, or someone who is close to me.

Japan fits the closeness, India fits the similar caliber, which is especially true since democracy gave India a false sense of pride. Evident in Nehru's every interaction with China, and the various Indian experts during the 90s and early 2000s.

India China's dynamic stems from the 90s to 2000s in which every analyst was calling for Indian victory, they based this on our relative similar starting point, our population, our level of human development, but also the one contrast that made India appear better, which is your democratic system.

In terms of cultural, sure, China Japan and India Pakistan are similar, but India and China are similar in circumstances. I wouldn't have used the word jealousy had India not been so proud of it's democratic system.

It's a mixture of things that made me say what I said.

There are some assumptions in your post which are factually incorrect.
Democracy didn't give us a false sense of pride. It was a necessity considering our 'mind boggling' diversity. Where languages, customs, and the entire structure of society changes every few hundred kilometres, democracy is the only option.
We completely understand the limitations, democracy imposes upon us. And this is common knowledge to every indian.
Contrast it with the growth in China, the result of a fine balancing act between communism and capitalism. Your government displayed quick decision making where ever required and simply bull dozed any/ all opposition/obstacles.
Your government gave you an advantage we could not get in democracy in our fledgling country.
Where is the false pride you speak of?
(On a side note, every mother thinks her child is the best, we sing peans for democracy, you propagate virtues of communism. It goes both ways)

Regarding Nehru, you are stuck on the old record. Nobody likes him here. We see what he did and how he screwed up big. He even favoured you for UNSC seat unconditionally and he was simply outplayed by mature chinese leadership. We have more reasons to hate him than you do. So lets just put it aside.

Now coming to the crux of your post, I understand your point about closeness and caliber. But the underlying point is still the the difference between two competing societies which you have deftly analogised by comparing bolt with yourself.

I reiterate we do not identify with China (closeness thing you mentioned). You would like to think of it as jealousy though, but its not. We don't understand you as a result we can only compete. Your society, government is too different than ours to have this emotion.
Honestly though, the only country we could ever be jealous of is pakistan.

No jealousy of Japan. Even if Japan was penniless we still dislike them. Japan was liked more in the 80's when they were much richer than now when they are only a little richer per capita and way behind overall. Vietnamese and Filipinos don't dislike Japan even though they were also treated brutally and are far poorer. And what about Koreans, are they jealous of Japan too?

The reason is much simpler. In high school, if a bully beat you up, then you started lifting weights and became stronger than the bully, are you going to care that the bully is rich? Will you forgive the bully if the bully keeps talking shit about you and saying "yeah I fucked up that little shit" even though now you can bench twice his weight?

.. We only care about Japan because they're dangerous militarists. If they would just shut up and apologize there is no issue. Instead the regime loves painting themselves as targets. Hatoyama tried to apologize in 2009 and got sacked by the establishment, so the hope for Japanese regime reforming from the inside is diminishing. Hatoyama represents the true hopes of Japanese people: he married a waitress from a Japanese restaraunt when he was studying at Stanford, rather than another aristocrat. Unfortunately nice people don't survive in Japanese politics

I get it. But, you guys literally want Japan to rub its nose into the ground to appease you. Nobody does that. Nobody will ever do that.
China is huge as compared to Japan, a little magnanimity won't hurt anyone.

Nope you are right. Jealousy doesn't fit into national policy lol. The main cause of conflict between China and India is mostly media manipulation and the border issue. Solve those, solve the problem. It isn't China that declared India had to be held down to preserve resources, it was the US. India-Pakistan is more like PRC-ROC. India-China is not much of a conflict I'd say.

Seriously if Indians would just shut the **** up, most Chinese would regard you as a curious, if somewhat dangerous, tourism country. Instead you keep jumping out and painting yourself as a target. That is a very bad idea.

Yeah solve the boundary issues solve everything. See, being crafty is not the same as being classy or clever. Solving boundary issues is one thing. Your arming pakistan against us is another.
Seriously, if Chinese would just for god sake stop bull shitting all the people all the time, the Indians would probably think about trusting Chinese a little more and things would improve for real.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Nihonjin

I am acutely aware of the differences in culture between Japan and China. If you notice i have said 'similarities' and in no way negated your uniqueness vis a vis Chinese. My intent was to make a point about familiarity between various oriental cultures as compared to say Asians like Indians and pakistanis.

Lastly, trust me there is no erroneous generalization here. I have watched enough movies



There are some assumptions in your post which are factually incorrect.
Democracy didn't give us a false sense of pride. It was a necessity considering our 'mind boggling' diversity. Where languages, customs, and the entire structure of society changes every few hundred kilometres, democracy is the only option.
We completely understand the limitations, democracy imposes upon us. And this is common knowledge to every indian.
Contrast it with the growth in China, the result of a fine balancing act between communism and capitalism. Your government displayed quick decision making where ever required and simply bull dozed any/ all opposition/obstacles.
Your government gave you an advantage we could not get in democracy in our fledgling country.
Where is the false pride you speak of?
(On a side note, every mother thinks her child is the best, we sing peans for democracy, you propagate virtues of communism. It goes both ways)

Regarding Nehru, you are stuck on the old record. Nobody likes him here. We see what he did and how he screwed up big. He even favoured you for UNSC seat unconditionally and he was simply outplayed by mature chinese leadership. We have more reasons to hate him than you do. So lets just put it aside.

Now coming to the crux of your post, I understand your point about closeness and caliber. But the underlying point is still the the difference between two competing societies which you have deftly analogised by comparing bolt with yourself.

I reiterate we do not identify with China (closeness thing you mentioned). You would like to think of it as jealousy though, but its not. We don't understand you as a result we can only compete. Your society, government is too different than ours to have this emotion.
Honestly though, the only country we could ever be jealous of is pakistan.





I get it. But, you guys literally want Japan to rub its nose into the ground to appease you. Nobody does that. Nobody will ever do that.
China is huge as compared to Japan, a little magnanimity won't hurt anyone.




Yeah solve the boundary issues solve everything. See, being crafty is not the same as being classy or clever. Solving boundary issues is one thing. Your arming pakistan against us is another.
Seriously, if Chinese would just for god sake stop bull shitting all the people all the time, the Indians would probably think about trusting Chinese a little more and things would improve for real.

We don't require your trust though. It is to your best interest to drop the conflict, not ours. We don't care either way. And no, we don't want Japan to rub its nose in the dirt. A sincere "sorry" is sufficient.

 

[Aepsilons]

Nihonjin

I am acutely aware of the differences in culture between Japan and China. If you notice i have said 'similarities' and in no way negated your uniqueness vis a vis Chinese. My intent was to make a point about familiarity between various oriental cultures as compared to say Asians like Indians and pakistanis.

Lastly, trust me there is no erroneous generalization here. I have watched enough movies

Good. I'm glad that is clarified.

Take care , Arbit. See you around the forum.

Jealously is a factor but a not a major one in short.

India doesn't have to be jealous of any country. I think its important to consider national development to domestic context and to consider also the societal issues that defines each country's developmental praxis uniquely its own. India is no China and unlike China, India is a representative, participatory democracy. While democracy is not perfect, it has and caries with it certain limitations and that is definitely more extrapolated in larger nations; the Republic of India, the largest democracy in the world, is an epitome of this -- being over 1.2 billion strong -- has to account for the unique limitations and strengths of maintaining a large bureaucracy. Lastly, India has definite limitations and hurdles before her, but I believe these can be overcome through the Indian methodology of managment and diplomacy. I reiterate, again, the need for us to consider domestic situations from country to country , and that there is no "one right method". Remember -- even in Democracy -- there is not one form of democracy, but various: a) Republican, b) Constitutional Monarchical, c) Parliamentarian, d) Bicameral, e) Unicameral, f) Multiformal.

India is India; Japan is Japan; United States is United States; Canada is Canada, United Kingdom is United Kingdom, Indonesia is Indonesia et al.


A fonte puro pura defluit aqua.