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Hong Kong protesters oppose "propaganda" education plan

Here are some logical thinking for you.
More like illogical thinking FROM YOU.

China is not ruled by a dictator, like North Korea, the power within CCP itself is institutionalized.
China is ruled by a dictatorship: A single party dictatorship.

The phrase 'single party dictatorship' can be used as a statement of fact or as a convenient rhetorical insult. Take either the American 'blue' or 'red' state, for example. Why is each 'blue' or 'red', meaning dominantly Democratic or Republican? Certainly not because there is a legal exclusion of oppositional political parties. It mean the population are predominantly swayed by one political ideology and voted accordingly.

On the other hand...

Single-party state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sometimes the term de facto single-party state is used to describe a dominant-party system where laws or practices prevent the opposition from legally getting power.
The Chinese Communist Party enacted laws that prevented formal political oppositions. In China's case, the phrase 'single party dictatorship' is a statement of fact.

But yes, there is no opposition, the current goverment rules without challenge, that is a fact and this is what makes China unique, what edge does China have over countries like India and Brazil? they are all seen as true democracies by the west, right? they both have vast land resource and population, is it because Chinese just work harder? maybe.
Nothing so 'unique' about it. All dictatorships rules without political oppositions.

In the US, corporations and wall street have a heavy influence on politics, some even argue they control the capital hill. People like Robert Gates and GWB has a personal stake in policy making. In China, it's the exact opposite, businesses has to follow the government and sometimes has the right connection in order to profit, politicians don't try to please the business man, it's vice versa. The CCP is like the republican party, unions has no power in China, very little social benefits, very little health care, very little retirement funds. they are also like the democrats, regulated financial sectors, state owned banks, public transport, postal, telecom, all crucial so the government can't be taken hostage by corporations. They do not have a set of ideals like the US political parties, they just do what's best for the country. In the end, its effective, efficient, in areas like defense and economy. They don't have to worry about criticism from the opposition and effectively implement regulations.They are more likely to achieve a long term strategic target that won't be effected by regime change.
Give US a break. :lol:

State owned enterprises (SOE) is the final and finest examples of crony capitalism where Party members obey Party orders at some time and issues Party orders at other times. Your argument is the finest example of brainwashing.

But there are so many success stories of democracy!!! The U.S being the biggest one, Along with Western Europe. If you look trough history, the only successful democracies has always had wealth before democracy, not the other way around. Look and GWB's second term in white house, it's almost like he had a four year vacation, he makes so many jokes he thinks himself as a pop star. Look at Obama, republicans vote him down no matter right or wrong, just to get him out of the office.
Wrong. The American colonies were poor compared to mother Great Britain, France, or several other European powers before they revolted and formed their democracy. If you were trying to use the US as an example, it was a pathetic understanding and knowledge of American history. The American territory was rich, no disputes there. But because the colonies were DELIBERATELY designed to be EXPORT DRIVEN with products produced in the New World commanded to be shipped back to England, internally retained wealth and exported wealth were disparate. That does not mean the American colonies were living in caves and bushes like in Africa or the jungles of southern America, but it does mean that most colonists did not have their 'fair share' of the wealth produced. That is pretty much how colonies are supposed to work: Produce for the master.

Many Chinese goes aboard to seek a better opportunity, majority's first choice is the USA. Is that because they are in need of freedom? The majority of US immigrants are Mexicans, do they not get freedom from their democratic government?
Nowhere in the democratic credos do they guarantee economic prosperity or even basic human rights. This is another pathetic arguments against democracy, usually by someone who have no understanding of it, needs to rail against it, but ironically want to live under it anyway. :lol:

What democratic principles does is to explain what those rights are freedoms are and let the people fend for themselves over them. Am willing to bet you do not know the differences between a 'right' and a 'freedom'. Look them up.

The CCP certainly does use propaganda, I think that is just to counter the western propaganda that is forced upon the Chinese people.
Forced? That is hilarious. How did we 'forced' democratic principles upon the Chinese? Keep in mind that the human psyche is infinitely curious. We seek out more than we impose. Try social history for a change.

What the west want in China is instability and Chaos, democracy conveniently provides both.
Wrong. Democracy advocate controlled disagreements and disputes. Instability and chaos results when the ruling power resists and persecutes those who disagrees.

If you had to choose between a roof for your family and the first amendment, what is your choice??? Right! YOU DONT HAVE TO!
Make no sense and am not even going to try.

You know tens of thousand of Chinese couldn't find a job in China for some reason. They come to the US for political asylum, say to the judge's face that they were tortured, prosecuted for being Christian, Falungon and etc... they get an instant green card. Due to their asylum / refugee status, they can also bring their whole family over and claim social benefit at will, without worrying about anything. (every other type of green card is either sponsored by a US citizen or US company, thus the card can get very few if any social benefit.) How many of them do you think are for real? My best guess is 1 out of 50000. It's the SPOKEN truth among the Chinese community. Thousands of Chinese lawyers makes a living out of doing this. Homeland and Justice must be stupid right?? LOL? All this is just so the speaker of white house can say "Get your human rights problems solved! Look, so many Chinese seeks asylum here. It must be bad!! We have a million sworn statements!!" Do you think this is propaganda? paid by your tax money and your jobs!! and you are not gonna hear about this from CNN.
Voltaire said: 'To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.'

The best criticisms against the ruling power are at least one formal opposition political party and a free press. See if you can find both in China.
 
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I won't say much, but let me just get this straight:

These are people forcing their children, less than 15 years old or even still in strollers and daipers, to hold signs in the hot Hong Kong sun, for their own ideology? At 15 years old you might barely be able to comprehend the implications of this education independently, but definitely not when you're a baby.

And they have the balls to talk about brainwashing?

Waving British flags? Why don't they go to Britain?

Indeed, the history of Hong Kong's education is very interesting. In a paper by Wong et. al from 1994(can't find the link right now), they noted that the British deliberately de-emphasized modern aspects of the Chinese character and instead emphasized the ancient history of it, while emphasizing European history for the past 200 years.

Thus, Hong Kong's 70's-90's generation was educated to view themselves only abstractly as Chinese, as only part of their identity, rather than having a stake in their own fate. However, they were also never regarded as fully British. They suffered from the immigrant diaspora experience, despite being born and raised in their own city.

Therefore, like immigrants, they associated liberalism, modernity, egalitarianism with Western culture, and authoritarianism, duty and hard work with Eastern culture. When they see now that the roles are starting to shift, it conflicts with their rigid worldview imprinted by years of education and peer pressure, and they're left with this as their only choice, other than accept their mistake (which no one wants to do).

That generation was designed, so to speak, to be the middlemen between East and West, and thus, if they were not understandable by the East, they could claim that's because they're too Westernized, and if not understandable by the West, they can claim that's because of their Eastern roots.
 
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I won't say much, but let me just get this straight:

These are people forcing their children, less than 15 years old or even still in strollers and daipers, to hold signs in the hot Hong Kong sun, for their own ideology? At 15 years old you might barely be able to comprehend the implications of this education independently, but definitely not when you're a baby.

And they have the balls to talk about brainwashing?
Yes, they do.

China welcomes an old enemy - World - smh.com.au
Although Casino Royale, a remake of the first Ian Fleming novel, is centred on gambling, which is banned in mainland China, the film's distributor Sony said it had successfully argued that the movie was about fighting a common enemy: terrorism.

Sony Pictures Entertainment's China general manager, Li Chow, said the censors did not require any cuts.

"What we told them is, 'We are fighting a common enemy: terrorists.' That was well accepted," Li said.

But Judi Dench, the British actress who plays Bond's boss, M, said she had to change a line of dialogue - "Christ, I miss the Cold War" - for Casino Royale's release in China.

Dench said: "I had to redub it [to] 'God, I miss the old times.' Not quite the same thing."
China's censors want the Chinese public to have as little knowledge and relationship, emotional and intellectual, to the Cold War as much as possible. The spectacular and ignoble collapse of the Soviet Union presented to the Chinese leadership a dilemma that involved equally spectacular mental gymnastics at explaining said collapse and equally spectacular attempts at censorship of said collapse. Even the phrase 'Cold War' had to be excised from a movie.

For the Chinese leadership, history is not a science for study by all but a political issue that demands management -- spin -- by a few for the consumption of the masses.
 
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Hong Kong school year starts with hunger strikes
By Alexis Lai, CNN
September 4, 2012 -- Updated 1021 GMT (1821 HKT)

(CNN) -- Hunger strikes marked the start of the Hong Kong school year as students, parents, and teachers protested against what they perceive as Beijing-led interference in the public school curriculum.
Thousands of protesters dressed in black gathered outside the government headquarters Monday ahead of a 5:00 p.m. deadline for the government to drop the "Moral and National Education" subject or face further protests. Hong Kongers have decried the subject as an attempt to "brainwash" impressionable young minds with pro-mainland-Chinese propaganda.
Amid no response from the government, the Civil Alliance against National Education -- a coalition of concern groups -- declared that plans were underway to organize city-wide student strikes and teacher boycotts of the subject.

Organizers also called for demonstrators to return to the headquarters every evening in a kind of "Occupy" movement, adapted from the global protest against socioeconomic injustice.
In a tactic uncommon in Hong Kong protests, by Monday evening, 13 protesters had joined a hunger strike outside the government headquarters, initiated by three teenagers Thursday who have since dropped out due to health concerns. Camped in tents, the mix of students, teachers, and scholars have vowed to remain there until the government withdraws the subject.
A parent participating in the hunger strike, Linda Wong, told CNN: "I want to safeguard for my child the environment in Hong Kong in the future, so my son can learn and think independently."
From Taiwan, Tiananmen activist Wang Dan posted on his Weibo microblogging account that he would engage in a 24-hour hunger strike to "support Hong Kong's opposition movement against educational brainwashing."

Hong Kong school year starts with hunger strikes - CNN.com
 
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:undecided:

Hong Kongers have some legitimate concerns over this. I'm hopeful that the CPC will acknowledge and work to address the issue, since they have in general been mindful of Hong Kong for the last 15 years. It is better if education is not politicized, just my personal opinion.
 
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What a weird thinking? College is for history teaching??? Have you attended U.S. college before???

BTW, China has been open and reform for more than 30 years. It has been interacting with outside world for more than that long as well. Even with one party system, that does not mean people educated under that will be stupid. Actually, students from China know way much historical knowledge than their counterparts in U.S. and most in those western world.

Commie system will make people from China become stupid, know nothing about outside??? Your line of thinking is just as stupid as white.

Right...Students entering college is supposed to already endowed with all the knowledge. Kinda makes me wonder why colleges are needed in the first place if this argument is to be taken seriously. :lol:

Indeed, lack of logical thinking.


Really...??? Then why is the Chinese government so terrified of opposition political parties and press? If this argument is to be taken seriously, China should be a shining example for the world of a vibrant politically informed and politically varied citizenry. Instead, we see companies eager to have 'red hats' among their executives...Do I need to list many more examples of how compliant the Chinese citizenry really is, especially the wealthier and politically connected ones?

Indeed, lack of logical thinking.
 
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What a weird thinking? College is for history teaching???
If not, then what the hell is it for? :lol:

In every discipline, there is always a brief introduction on the history of the discipline, right?

You mean Psychiatry does not mention old Siggy?

Have you attended U.S. college before???
Nope, never attended college, high school, grade school, or even pre-school. I was borned with knowledge.

BTW, China has been open and reform for more than 30 years. It has been interacting with outside world for more than that long as well. Even with one party system, that does not mean people educated under that will be stupid. Actually, students from China know way much historical knowledge than their counterparts in U.S. and most in those western world.

Commie system will make people from China become stupid, know nothing about outside??? Your line of thinking is just as stupid as white.
The one party system is about political control, not about education. The Soviets were in the same boat.

And when an argument fails, always resort to racism.
 
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The Hong Kong government has backed down over plans to make schoolchildren take Chinese patriotism classes, after weeks of protests.

City leader Leung Chun-ying said the classes would be optional for schools. "The schools are given the authority to decide when and how they would like to introduce the moral and national education," he said.

A survey released last week suggested 69% of students opposed the classes.

full story: BBC News - Hong Kong backs down over Chinese patriotism classes



Let's chalk another win for the people of Hong Kong. Some day this city will be the front runner to take China on the road to her form of democracy:
A Meritocratic Government run by professionals and voted in by professionals on the behalves of people.
 
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The Hong Kong government has backed down over plans to make schoolchildren take Chinese patriotism classes, after weeks of protests.

City leader Leung Chun-ying said the classes would be optional for schools. "The schools are given the authority to decide when and how they would like to introduce the moral and national education," he said.

A survey released last week suggested 69% of students opposed the classes.

full story: BBC News - Hong Kong backs down over Chinese patriotism classes



Let's chalk another win for the people of Hong Kong. Some day this city will be the front runner to take China on the road to her form of democracy:
A Meritocratic Government run by professionals and voted in by professionals on the behalves of people.

That is the way to go Meritocracy, the problem is just people need to find the a way how to implement it correctly.
 
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That is the way to go Meritocracy, the problem is just people need to find the a way how to implement it correctly.


It seems to me the Chinese government is doing just that in recent months- adjusted their policies somewhat due to people's dissatisfaction. Because of the internet I think we are seeing something here that was never happened in history, no matter what form of government each nation has had, people's voices are being heard and the government is responding to the people wishes,

We all know democracies are not what they used to be and this phenomenon might just develop a better form of governments.
 
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It seems to me the Chinese government is doing just that in recent months- adjusted their policies somewhat due to people's dissatisfaction. Because of the internet I think we are seeing something here that was never happened in history, no matter what form of government each nation has had, people's voices are being heard and the government is responding to the people wishes,

We all know democracies are not what they used to be and this phenomenon might just develop a better form of governments.

The Chinese government is not stupid, and politicians in China learnt that more than 2000 years ago the common people are just like water, they can float a ship but can also sink one. So when questions are asked, then they should be answered as fast as possible before someone else make something out of that.

Talking about democracy, it just reminds me something I saw in a film today "The Dictator"
“Why are you guys so anti-dictators? Imagine if America was a dictatorship. You could let 1 percent of the people have all the nation’s wealth. You could help your rich friends get richer by cutting their taxes and bailing them out when they gamble and lose. You could ignore the needs of the poor for health care and education. Your media would appear free, but would secretly be controlled by one person and his family. You could wiretap phones. You could torture foreign prisoners. You could have rigged elections. You could lie about why you go to war. You could fill your prisons with one particular racial group and no one would complain. You could use the media to scare the people into supporting policies that are against their interests.”
 
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Talking about democracy, it just reminds me something I saw in a film today "The Dictator"


That's precisely what I meant by democracies are evolving for the worst these days. In a few big democracies everything the elected officials do are influenced by the big money only and the average people get lip services. Some socialist democracies in Europe are simply over their heads in managing their fiscal balances and eventually will go bankrupts by giving the people too much in order to entice their votes. Because of the voting systems people lost either way, but the politicians have good excuses- we're voted in by you.
 
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The Hong Kong government has backed down over plans to make schoolchildren take Chinese patriotism classes, after weeks of protests.

City leader Leung Chun-ying said the classes would be optional for schools. "The schools are given the authority to decide when and how they would like to introduce the moral and national education," he said.

A survey released last week suggested 69% of students opposed the classes.

full story: BBC News - Hong Kong backs down over Chinese patriotism classes



Let's chalk another win for the people of Hong Kong. Some day this city will be the front runner to take China on the road to her form of democracy:
A Meritocratic Government run by professionals and voted in by professionals on the behalves of people.

It is good that this issue has been addressed and seems to be resolved, though I'm contemplating if this will have longer term effects amongst Hong Kongers. I certainly hope that this ordeal won't complicate Hong Kong-mainland relations.
 
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:undecided:

Hong Kongers have some legitimate concerns over this. I'm hopeful that the CPC will acknowledge and work to address the issue, since they have in general been mindful of Hong Kong for the last 15 years. It is better if education is not politicized, just my personal opinion.

No they do not, not any more than Texans or Virginians have the right to question the Union's righteousness in reasserting control over the Confederacy.

Education is *Always* politicized, especially historical education. In old Hong Kong it was politicized as written by Wong et al. to distance them from their Chineseness and to train them as middlemen between East and West. Now its being politicized again, by the parents, to try and retain the British style.

Otherwise, why would they take their children with them and force their children to be in the hot Hong Kong sun for their own ideology? Do children in strollers understand the issues being discussed?
 
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30% of HKers support patriotic education. 45% of HKers oppose it. It's the same people who hate the Chinese government and the vast majority do not consider themselves Chinese, but only HKers. There is no point being soft here, just bring in the infantry fighting vehicles. The true Chinese patriots will purify our country of this 5th column. The purer we are in ideology, the stronger we stand.
 
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