HOMEINDIA India set to scout for 100 naval choppers

[Manindra]

It depends on what and how? We shouldn't licence produce a foreign LUH anymore, when we can develop our own. But we should licence produce MMRCAs, because we didn't reached that level of know how yet and the industry could a lot from it.

How much technology Reliance Aerospace can absorb from assembling Rafale who doesn't have experience of manufacturing a rivet use in aerospace industry ?

 

[Abingdonboy]

LIVEFIST: EXCLUSIVE: August 1st Flight For HAL's Light Utility Copter

LUH program is moving smoothly i believe.

That's irrelevant. The LUH is being designed with the IAF and IA in mind, the IN is not on board with this project and the LUH is not suitable for the IN's requirements as it is single engined and doesn't have automatically folding rotor blades.

 

[sancho]

How much technology Reliance Aerospace can absorb from assembling Rafale who doesn't have experience of manufacturing a rivet use in aerospace industry ?

That's the crucial difference, licence production under critical ToT of parts produced in India, or assembling kits in India with basic ToT of parts produced abroad. Under the original MMRCA tender, proper licence production is demanded and Reliance will cover the lack of know how, by using Dassaults production methods (for the wings for example), but that still require proper ToT. If they however just need to be able to assemble kits that were produced at Dassault, they only need to know basic things, but that obviously won't make them more useful for the Indian aviation industry in the long term. Knowing how to use a screwdriver, don't make you able to develop an aircraft. That's why we need such licence productions not only to cover our requirements, that can't be met by indigenous developments, but also to increase the knowhow in the industry and why the way the Rafale deal is going currently is more than worrysome.

 

[Manindra]

That's the crucial difference, licence production under critical ToT of parts produced in India, or assembling kits in India with basic ToT of parts produced abroad. Under the original MMRCA tender, proper licence production is demanded and Reliance will cover the lack of know how, by using Dassaults production methods (for the wings for example), but that still require proper ToT. If they however just need to be able to assemble kits that were produced at Dassault, they only need to know basic things, but that obviously won't make them more useful for the Indian aviation industry in the long term. Knowing how to use a screwdriver, don't make you able to develop an aircraft. That's why we need such licence productions not only to cover our requirements, that can't be met by indigenous developments, but also to increase the knowhow in the industry and why the way the Rafale deal is going currently is more than worrysome.

Thats why Dassault is eager to works with Reliance.
Reliance would import whole production line from Dassault because they have nill facility for that & then they could only assemble Dassault supplied kit which dassault may be manufactured in India. So, Dassault have complete control of technology & Reliance would only absorb Screwdriver technology.

 

[Agent_47]

That's irrelevant. The LUH is being designed with the IAF and IA in mind, the IN is not on board with this project and the LUH is not suitable for the IN's requirements as it is single engined and doesn't have automatically folding rotor blades.

• The LUH sports a new jointed foldable rotor system (see photo), designed and built in-house
• to meet the Indian Navy's deck requirements. Significantly, the rotor will be made available on future Dhruv ALH constructions and re-offered to the Indian Navy.
• For a proposed naval version, HAL says it will offer a wheeled version of the LUH.

LIVEFIST: EXCLUSIVE: August 1st Flight For HAL's Light Utility Copter

@sancho i think IN should scrap this tender and go for a mix of N-Dhruv and N-LUH.

 

[Abingdonboy]

• The LUH sports a new jointed foldable rotor system (see photo), designed and built in-house

• to meet the Indian Navy's deck requirements. Significantly, the rotor will be made available on future Dhruv ALH constructions and re-offered to the Indian Navy.

The issue will remain- they aren't AUTOMATICALLY folding blades.

@sancho i think IN should scrap this tender and go for a mix of N-Dhruv and N-LUH.

The N-ALH is too heavy for the IN's N-LUH requirements and the HAL LUH only has a single engine and is yet to even fly. There is a reason the IN didn't join HAL's LUH project.


The IN can't wait around forever for HAL to maybe, potentially, offer something that meets their needs one day. As it stands they can have new N-LUHs in service to replace their 40+ year old Chetaks within 3-4 years, they would be waiting a hell of a lot longer for the N-LUH if it was ever developed.


Case closed.

 

[sancho]

Thats why Dassault is eager to works with Reliance.
Reliance would import whole production line from Dassault because they have nill facility for that & then they could only assemble Dassault supplied kit which dassault may be manufactured in India. So, Dassault have complete control of technology & Reliance would only absorb Screwdriver technology.

Exactly and Reliance as most privat industry players is driven by making profits, no matter for what part they produce. The long term gain for Indian aviation, or future Indian developments has no priority and that's divides offset production or assembling of kits, which our industry had done for decades, with proper licence production under critical ToT, as well as joint developments that we have access to today.

@sancho i think IN should scrap this tender and go for a mix of N-Dhruv and N-LUH.

We still don't know if that system will be an automatic one, but I doubt that HAL's LUH will fit the requirements, while N-ALH surely could if that problem is solved.

The N-ALH is too heavy for the IN's N-LUH requirements

Buddy you keep claiming that for years, but it still remains to be wrong:

https://defence.pk/threads/naval-ut...ke-indian-category.338361/page-3#post-6818047

The emptyweight is the important one, to compare the alternatives, not the MTOW, because the latter is dependent on the load or specific mission, while the earlier is deciding if the helicopter can be operated from the vessels we intend to. Besides that these LUH only do SAR and light utilitly roles, with the heaviest duty being lifting slung loads from one vessel to another, but that again after the take off!

The IN can't wait around forever for HAL to maybe, potentially, offer something that meets their needs one day.

They don't have to, they could had put more effort into further developing the naval dhruv and already have that problem solved, just as into the indigenous development of an NMUH, but they didn't, because they want foreign helicopters!
If they had invested the money they wasted on N-LCA, into developing an indigenous naval helicopter fleet, they would had benefited way more, because they would get 100s of aircrafts, specifically designed for their needs, with the full needed capability to take on every mission. While NLCA will remain a low capable fighter in limited numbers.

As it stands they can have new N-LUHs in service to replace their 40+ year old Chetaks within 3-4 years

And how long would it take to develop an automatic folding system for N-ALH? Not to mention the faster induction and far lower costs (unit, maintenance, upgrades).

 

[MilSpec]

The issue will remain- they aren't AUTOMATICALLY folding blades.


The N-ALH is too heavy for the IN's N-LUH requirements and the HAL LUH only has a single engine and is yet to even fly. There is a reason the IN didn't join HAL's LUH project.


The IN can't wait around forever for HAL to maybe, potentially, offer something that meets their needs one day. As it stands they can have new N-LUHs in service to replace their 40+ year old Chetaks within 3-4 years, they would be waiting a hell of a lot longer for the N-LUH if it was ever developed.


Case closed.

I am trying to think how difficult is it make conventional rotors into a folding system? I have an inkling to say it might not be a very complicated project. Is navy on record saying that about the dhruv?

btw @sancho @Abingdonboy @Manindra dhruv's are doing a splendid job in nepal. Good to see that army and air force did not have any issues with the ALH in nepal.

 

[Abingdonboy]

btw @sancho @Abingdonboy @Manindra dhruv's are doing a splendid job in nepal. Good to see that army and air force did not have any issues with the ALH in nepal.

The ALH is a fine helo, I would never have doubted it would be put to good use in such a mission.

Is navy on record saying that about the dhruv?

AFAIK this has been stated numerous times over the years.

 

[sancho]

I am trying to think how difficult is it make conventional rotors into a folding system? I have an inkling to say it might not be a very complicated project. Is navy on record saying that about the dhruv?

btw @sancho @Abingdonboy @Manindra dhruv's are doing a splendid job in nepal. Good to see that army and air force did not have any issues with the ALH in nepal.

Not surprising, they did exceptionally well in all disaster relief operations in the recent years, but the media prefers to highlight C130s and C17s, while it's Indian and Russian helicopters that do the main job! Shiv Aroor even dared to highlight the CH47 after Uttarakhand, although it's not even available and while it was Dhruv, Mi17 and the Mi 26 that actually were praise worthy!
Dhruv and the indigenous helicopter side is one big success story, but once again we fail to make the best out of it, by buying foreign naval, light or combat helicopters, when we actually have to keep pushing this successful field!

 

[Manindra]

I am trying to think how difficult is it make conventional rotors into a folding system? I have an inkling to say it might not be a very complicated project. Is navy on record saying that about the dhruv?

btw @sancho @Abingdonboy @Manindra dhruv's are doing a splendid job in nepal. Good to see that army and air force did not have any issues with the ALH in nepal.

One picture speaks thousand words

 

[migflug]

beauty

 

[sancho]

beautyView attachment 218114

Nice and interesting pics! The earlier one is already fully upgraded with the latest EWS, while the latter already has the provisions, but lack the sensors. It's good to see them being kept state of the art!