Naval Utility Helicopter (NUH) Procurement Moved Under Buy and Make (Indian) Category

[sancho]

Wrong again. The earlier contract was for supply of chosen Helicopter with 30% to be reinvested as offset. The new tender is for "make in India". They both are totally different.

LOL what nonsense! Offsets apply to any defence deals, be it the off the shelf procurement of C17s or P8Is, just as in licence production deals like the MMRCA or the LUH deals. As I said, you have no clue what the deal is about or what make in India means.

In any case the likely winner of the contest was Sikorsky 70B and they already have a tie up with Tata, so it is ridiculous to assume they will offset with HAL.

Nonsense again, because the S70 is a medium class helicopter which is participating in another tender for 16 ASW helicopters. This deal is about 56 naval light uttility helicopters, you just need to read the opening article to understand that:

Two companies responded to the RFP - Eurocopter AS565 MB Naval Panther, a military variant of the popular Dauphin, and the AgustaWestland AW139.

 

[SanjeevaniButi]

LOL what nonsense! Offsets apply to any defence deals, be it the off the shelf procurement of C17s or P8Is, just as in licence production deals like the MMRCA or the LUH deals. As I said, you have no clue what the deal is about or what make in India means.

Listen kid, I was involved in the P-8I and have been part of the negotiations with Boeing and have also been part of the lobby that made changes in the offset clauses in DPP. As of today Boeing's offset requirements in India exceeds 600 million $.
I am also part of a group that is building proposals that helps Boeing satisfy that Offset conditions.

There is a certain point beyond which you should not stretch your theoretical knowledge. You end up looking like a fool.

Nonsense again, because the S70 is a medium class helicopter which is participating in another tender for 16 ASW helicopters. This deal is about 56 naval light uttility helicopters, you just need to read the opening article to understand that:

My bad, I did mix up the two. But nothing changes. The arguments still hold.

 

[sancho]

Listen kid, I was involved in the P-8I and have been part of the negotiations with Boeing and have also been part of the lobby that made changes in the offset clauses in DPP. As of today Boeing's offset requirements in India exceeds 600 million $.
I am also part of a group that is building proposals that helps Boeing satisfy that Offset conditions.

There is a certain point beyond which you should not stretch your theoretical knowledge. You end up looking like a fool

Yes 100% believable!

My bad, I did mix up the two. But nothing changes. The arguments still hold.

The only thing that doesn't change is, that you are obviously clueless, other than that it changes everything!

NMHR - 16 helicopters procured off the shelf, with offset requirements that must be invested back
NLUH - 56 helicopter, most of the to be licence produced under ToT and offest requirements that must be invested back

Off the shelf procurement => made in the winning country
Licence produced => made in India
Made in India => produced by an Indian company, be it TATA or HAL

 

[SanjeevaniButi]

Yes 100% believable!

It does not matter what you believe, only that you are completely wrong. But just too foolish or proud to acknowledge that. Even a basic google search can convince you of this. LOL.

The only thing that doesn't change is, that you are obviously clueless, other than that it changes everything!

NMHR - 16 helicopters procured off the shelf, with offset requirements that must be invested back
NLUH - 56 helicopter, most of the to be licence produced under ToT and offest requirements that must be invested back

Off the shelf procurement => made in the winning country
Licence produced => made in India
Made in India => produced by an Indian company, be it TATA or HAL

The new tender is for Buy Indian, not make Indian.

The earlier tender was for screwdriver technology transfer and partial production in India.

The new tender makes sure that the ownership of the product lies in Indian hands.

 

[sancho]

https://twitter.com/x/status/569093283227373568

https://twitter.com/x/status/569161950346678272

 

[Abingdonboy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/569093283227373568

https://twitter.com/x/status/569161950346678272

Why are AW even bothering? They are not going to win this as per the Attorney General's report on the VVIP affair.



Other than that I'd say the Bell 429 has a good chance with a high "Made in India" content but I wonder if the IN is more inclined to wheeled NLUHs.

 

[sancho]

Other than that I'd say the Bell 429 has a good chance with a high "Made in India" content but I wonder if the IN is more inclined to wheeled NLUHs.

It has a wheeled version too, the 429 WLG, btw I looked up some basic specs for comparison:

Why exactly did the Navy prefered to go for foreign helicopters, instead of the naval Dhruv?

 

[Abingdonboy]

Why exactly did the Navy prefered to go for foreign helicopters, instead of the naval Dhruv?

Two reasons from what I understand- the lack of automatic folding blades (AFAIK this STILL hasn't been addressed) and the MTOW of the ALH was too high for some of the IN's smaller vessels, they wanted a MTOW around the 3.5 ton range. Curious the S-76D is taking part when it is clearly too heavy as per the IN's RFI.

 

[sancho]

Two reasons from what I understand- the lack of automatic folding blades (AFAIK this STILL hasn't been addressed) and the MTOW of the ALH was too high for some of the IN's smaller vessels, they wanted a MTOW around the 3.5 ton range. Curious the S-76D is taking part when it is clearly too heavy as per the IN's RFI.

The MTOW is only based on the payload it carries, but look at the empty weights, which are more than similar to Dhruv and keep in mind that they are meant for light utility roles only, while their counterparts in the land forces might have to carry heavier loads.

 

[kaku1]

It has a wheeled version too, the 429 WLG, btw I looked up some basic specs for comparison:

View attachment 195648


Why exactly did the Navy prefered to go for foreign helicopters, instead of the naval Dhruv?

Maybe folded wings? But they shown this in N-LUH, then why not implementing on N-ALH?

 

[Abingdonboy]

The MTOW is only based on the payload it carries, but look at the empty weights, which are more than similar to Dhruv and keep in mind that they are meant for light utility roles only, while their counterparts in the land forces might have to carry heavier loads.

True but I think everyone just needs to give up on the N-ALH dream, it can fly in the ICG and IN for shore based SAR and is doing a great job for the IA and IAF. The idea of having a one fit solution for all three services was flawed from the outset and they seem to have learnt their lessons with the LUH where the IN has kept a distance from the entire project.

Ever heard the phrase, "a jack of all trades, master of none?"

It has a wheeled version too, the 429 WLG,

Ah yes, she does look very sleek:

I've only ever seen skid version of the military/navy 429 though

:

Didn't think to check if there was a WLG variant.

 

[sancho]

Maybe folded wings? But they shown this in N-LUH, then why not implementing on N-ALH?

Dhruv already has a folding system, it just was automatic + the lack of range were reported reasons why it couldn't be considered as an ASW helicopter and why IN prefered S70 / NH90 class once. But here we are talking about basic light utility and SAR roles, which the navy already does with naval Dhruvs from their shore bases, which makes it easier and cheaper to induct. The performance as shown is comparable, if not even better, so is the lack of an automatic folding system enough to reject the Dhruv and go for foreign helicopters in the same class (and that although IN claims to be so supportive to indigenous developments)?

True but I think everyone just needs to give up on the N-ALH dream

What dream? It's already reality

We hardly can ignore the capabilities of the naval Dhruv, which even IN is boasting about and then reject it by the lack of some minor systems. Either try to improve it, or apply your requirements to it, which still is easier and much more cost-effective than wasting time and money on evaluating and licence producing foreign NLUH.

 

[ADD BDM]

It has a wheeled version too, the 429 WLG, btw I looked up some basic specs for comparison:

View attachment 195648


Why exactly did the Navy prefered to go for foreign helicopters, instead of the naval Dhruv?

Dhruv already has a folding system, it just was automatic + the lack of range were reported reasons why it couldn't be considered as an ASW helicopter and why IN prefered S70 / NH90 class once. But here we are talking about basic light utility and SAR roles, which the navy already does with naval Dhruvs from their shore bases, which makes it easier and cheaper to induct. The performance as shown is comparable, if not even better, so is the lack of an automatic folding system enough to reject the Dhruv and go for foreign helicopters in the same class (and that although IN claims to be so supportive to indigenous developments)?



What dream? It's already reality

View attachment 195690

View attachment 195691

View attachment 195699

View attachment 195692
We hardly can ignore the capabilities of the naval Dhruv, which even IN is boasting about and then reject it by the lack of some minor systems. Either try to improve it, or apply your requirements to it, which still is easier and much more cost-effective than wasting time and money on evaluating and licence producing foreign NLUH.

exactly even i was thinking the same when i saw the navy requirement and the dhruv s specs both are same .idont know why they are wasting time and money

 

[sancho]

exactly even i was thinking the same when i saw the navy requirement and the dhruv s specs both are same .idont know why they are wasting time and money

It's funny that they now even show interest in Rudra or LCH, but don't want to use for Dhruvs? Not sure what else the Dhruv is lacking, but it surely is a strange decision.