History of Pashtuns-Updates And Discussions

[Maula Jatt]

My opinion

I don't think it is truth or even near that. Yous see, majority of us "urbanized peshawri and nowshera" Pashtoons when look at our family tree, it goes back to some area of Afghanistan. My own family tree touches to Ghazni area of Afghanistan. This is the case with majority of us. Yousufzai etc are tribes (very old tribes) of Pashtoons and I don't know they only exist since 1500s.

Btw Yousufzai themselves migrated from Suleiman Mountains near Hindukush in 16th century. It is the largest tribe of Pashtoons. Peshawar still have 30% population of Hindko speakers. Why we failed to convert them ? You see, Pashtoons would have never allowed other ethnicities into their tribal system even if they learnt to speak Pashto. It was a really closed social system.

(FYI If I say some dumb shit- people don't get offended, I am not really knowledgeable, just saying things out, I am just trying to piece it all together for my own satisfaction)
Dardics are like Kashmiris or someone in Chitral, Gilgit etc before the migration of Pashtun tribes that area was made up of mostly those people some Hindko people might have a Dardic, potohari mix but I looked at their clans and they didn't seem very different to someone from potahar just with editions of some clans that I don't think are potaharis originally but they were a minority

I think Chitrali, Nuristani people were the original people of that region
who either had their own culture or was a subculture of Punjab? or was a bit like Kashmir valley ? - this I don't know

I was just trying to figure out the Gandharan people - who were they? what kinda culture they followed? - Ghandharans definitely had a more Buddhist influence (afaik Pashtuns were not Buddhists) , the greatest Sanskrit linguist is literally from Charsadda and Pashtuns are an Iranic speaking - again little connection
So like with every sign you can see the evidence that they are not native to the land and its a new group but the region dna matches with Pashtuns and some northwestern punjabi clans (last part seems understandable its still indo-aryan group and our non muslim history is also part of recorded history so our connections with it make sense)

The genetically closest modern population groups to the ancient Gandharans: Barikot Discoveries

In 2017, DNA samples were extracted from Gandharan burial mounds found in Barikot, Swat dating back to the Iron Age. The results were recently released following analysis. Utilizing admixture modeling tools, the genetic distance between these samples and modern sample groups were measured. Here...

defence.pk

this leaves me confused in terms of whats going on, to explain the phenomenon I could only think of it as like arabs did arabization maybe the newer Pashtuns tribes took the dardic people into thier culture

but since you said it yourself Pashtuns dont do that- this leaves me even more confused than ever before

who were the Gandharan people?

 

[RealNapster]

(FYI If I say some dumb shit- people don't get offended, I am not really knowledgeable, just saying things out, I am just trying to piece it all together for my own satisfaction)
Dardics are like Kashmiris or someone in Chitral, Gilgit etc before the migration of Pashtun tribes that area was made up of mostly those people some Hindko people might have a Dardic, potohari mix but I looked at their clans and they didn't seem very different to someone from potahar just with editions of some clans that I don't think are potaharis originally but they were a minority

I think Chitrali, Nuristani people were the original people of that region
who either had their own culture or was a subculture of Punjab? or was a bit like Kashmir valley ? - this I don't know

I was just trying to figure out the Gandharan people - who were they? what kinda culture they followed? - Ghandharans definitely had a more Buddhist influence (afaik Pashtuns were not Buddhists) , the greatest Sanskrit linguist is literally from Charsadda and Pashtuns are an Iranic speaking - again little connection
So like with every sign you can see the evidence that they are not native to the land and its a new group but the region dna matches with Pashtuns and some northwestern punjabi clans (last part seems understandable its still indo-aryan group and our non muslim history is also part of recorded history so our connections with it make sense)

The genetically closest modern population groups to the ancient Gandharans: Barikot Discoveries

In 2017, DNA samples were extracted from Gandharan burial mounds found in Barikot, Swat dating back to the Iron Age. The results were recently released following analysis. Utilizing admixture modeling tools, the genetic distance between these samples and modern sample groups were measured. Here...

defence.pk

this leaves me confused in terms of whats going on, to explain the phenomenon I could only think of it as like arabs did arabization maybe the newer Pashtuns tribes took the dardic people into thier culture

but since you said it yourself Pashtuns dont do that- this leaves me even more confused than ever before

who were the Gandharan people?

Well I studied about gandahara civilization about 15 years ago when I was in my early teen age. So can't recall much of it.

Problem with Pashtoon history is that there was no concept of writing history and other things in Pashtoon tribes instead they preferred Oral Tales which they used to sing in gatherings. You would hardly find any Pashto writing older then 1200s. That is one of the reason that Pashtoon even though claim to be a civilization older then 3-5 thousand years still can't produce any proof of it. So can't really help you in that. My lack of Pashto literature review also is a reason behind my inability to discuss.

 

[TNT]

I heard that pukhtuns outside of waziris and northern Balochistan are dardics who have been Pashtunized after the 1500s etc(common phenomenon Arabs, Turks), is this true or like "somewhat"/complicated true as dardics were native people who have mixed heavily with and assimilated into the pukhtun culture?
What do you think of this theory, peshwar valley, Swat etc and other such places were dardic areas historically and some potohari Punjabi were around too in the Indus border areas similar to now with hazarawal region but it was mostly a dardic area
Cause yousafzai of swat have the closest DNA to ancient ghandharan people after that kamboh and than couple other local KPK Pashtun tribes

but yousafzai moved there in the 1400,1500s this triggered my very basic research into this , so like I am interested in knowing the prescriptive of pukhtuns of those areas especially or anyone more knowledgeable than me
What do y'all of this?, I am somewhat confused cause migration history of Pashtun tribes most certainly happened but than why are the people still closer to the native ancient people of their lands - was it assimilation by these tribes into a larger pakhtun identity?

@DESERT FIGHTER @RealNapster @TNT @Talwar e Pakistan

Hi, i have written about this. Northern pashtuns, mainly yousafzai moved from kabul to current Peshawar swat valley in late 1400s. This theory of them having ancient DNA is wrong. No comprehensive research done. It is a false theory because the migration of yousafzais from kabul is well known and documented history. Yousafzais became too strong in kabul and the Uzbek ruler mirza ughlag baig, their ally betrayed them and killed most leaders. They migrated to dalazak area Peshawar valley under leadership of malak ahmad khan. Considered father of yousafzais in east. Being a warrior and empire making tribe, yousafzais spread, taking over swat from swatis king mirza awais. Eventually they spread through most of the north. Mosoleum of ahmad khan baba is still there in malakand.
Yousafzais had the culture of assimilating the taken over ppl as workers and putting them in categories like "chamyaar", cobblers, "nayee" barber. But there were always elite subcasts. So the sample taken of any such study can also be questionable.
Pashtuns as a whole came from Afghanistan and majority of current KPK is not old pashtun land, all these were taken over by different tribes. Its the reason u can find yousafzais, shinwari and others in Afghanistan as well, to this day.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

My opinion

I don't think it is truth or even near that. Yous see, majority of us "urbanized peshawri and nowshera" Pashtoons when look at our family tree, it goes back to some area of Afghanistan. My own family tree touches to Ghazni area of Afghanistan. This is the case with majority of us. Yousufzai etc are tribes (very old tribes) of Pashtoons and I don't know they only exist since 1500s.

Btw Yousufzai themselves migrated from Suleiman Mountains near Hindukush in 16th century. It is the largest tribe of Pashtoons. Peshawar still have 30% population of Hindko speakers. Why we failed to convert them ? You see, Pashtoons would have never allowed other ethnicities into their tribal system even if they learnt to speak Pashto. It was a really closed social system.

This goes against the genetic data we have. There is genetic variation among Pashtuns themselves that is tied closely to geography.

For example, Pashtuns that live among Tajiks in the North are genetically shifted towards Tajiks while Pashtuns in KPK are genetically shifted towards other Pakistani ethnic groups.

This shows that either Pashtuns have been residing in the region for much longer than thought (there are theories that the "Aparytai" or "Aspasioi" tribes mentioned by the Greeks were the progenitors to the Afridis and Yusufzai) , ethnic-intermixing has been really strong or Pashtuns have been genetically close to other Pakistani ethnic groups even prior to their "migration".

 

[Maula Jatt]

Hi, i have written about this. Northern pashtuns, mainly yousafzai moved from kabul to current Peshawar swat valley in late 1400s.

That's pretty much undisputed

Ghandharan we're Indo Aryan speaking, Buddhists
While Pashtuns were a more nomadic people so like it's a new group, that's in my eyes atleast is undisputed

This theory of them having ancient DNA is wrong. No comprehensive research done. It is a false theory because the migration of yousafzais from kabul is well known and documented history. Yousafzais became too strong in kabul and the Uzbek ruler mirza ughlag baig, their ally betrayed them and killed most leaders. They migrated to dalazak area Peshawar valley under leadership of malak ahmad khan. Considered father of yousafzais in east. Being a warrior and empire making tribe, yousafzais spread, taking over swat from swatis king mirza awais. Eventually they spread through most of the north. Mosoleum of ahmad khan baba is still there in malakand.
Yousafzais had the culture of assimilating the taken over ppl as workers and putting them in categories like "chamyaar", cobblers, "nayee" barber.

But this is what I think too
Yousafzai or Swatis before them we're the original Afghans but they took the native people into Thier fold, made a hierarchy based system but assimilated them into their tribes

This is a very common phenomenon Among Turks and Arabs and other tribal groups , so I do somewhat believe in this theory

I don't think the DnA is false though cause they show it everywhere but I think it's the way it is (swats yousafzai being closest to ancient ghandharan of swat)

Cause original Afghans assimilated the native dardics to such extent that culturally and every way they were still pukhtuns but this assimilation of the dardic people into their folds shows up in their DNA

The ancient ghandharans were not Pashtuns but they assimilated these people through an hierarchy into their fold

This is the theory that I somewhat lean towards as it it's a phenomen across the globe with other such tribal societies
As Egyptian are culturally Arab but are not like the saudis and Turks of turkey are not like CA Turks but both are culturally that, have tribes

but I don't know, just trying to make sense of it all cause I started thinking of this randomly like a week ago

But there were always elite subcasts. So the sample taken of any such study can also be questionable.
Pashtuns as a whole came from Afghanistan and majority of current KPK is not old pashtun land, all these were taken over by different tribes. Its the reason u can find yousafzais, shinwari and others in Afghanistan as well, to this day.

 

[hydrabadi_arab]

(FYI If I say some dumb shit- people don't get offended, I am not really knowledgeable, just saying things out, I am just trying to piece it all together for my own satisfaction)
Dardics are like Kashmiris or someone in Chitral, Gilgit etc before the migration of Pashtun tribes that area was made up of mostly those people some Hindko people might have a Dardic, potohari mix but I looked at their clans and they didn't seem very different to someone from potahar just with editions of some clans that I don't think are potaharis originally but they were a minority

I think Chitrali, Nuristani people were the original people of that region
who either had their own culture or was a subculture of Punjab? or was a bit like Kashmir valley ? - this I don't know

I was just trying to figure out the Gandharan people - who were they? what kinda culture they followed? - Ghandharans definitely had a more Buddhist influence (afaik Pashtuns were not Buddhists) , the greatest Sanskrit linguist is literally from Charsadda and Pashtuns are an Iranic speaking - again little connection
So like with every sign you can see the evidence that they are not native to the land and its a new group but the region dna matches with Pashtuns and some northwestern punjabi clans (last part seems understandable its still indo-aryan group and our non muslim history is also part of recorded history so our connections with it make sense)

The genetically closest modern population groups to the ancient Gandharans: Barikot Discoveries

In 2017, DNA samples were extracted from Gandharan burial mounds found in Barikot, Swat dating back to the Iron Age. The results were recently released following analysis. Utilizing admixture modeling tools, the genetic distance between these samples and modern sample groups were measured. Here...

defence.pk

this leaves me confused in terms of whats going on, to explain the phenomenon I could only think of it as like arabs did arabization maybe the newer Pashtuns tribes took the dardic people into thier culture

but since you said it yourself Pashtuns dont do that- this leaves me even more confused than ever before

who were the Gandharan people?

Gandharan people were indo-aryans, closest modern group is punjabi. Not hilli billi mountain dards btw. Youfzai village system is very similar to punjab villages which they adopted from punjabi like locals. Which is why you see artisan class among northen KP pashtuns like Youfzai who are nai, cobbler, moulvi and so on just like in punjab villages. They speak pashto but are not pashtuns by blood line or landownership. Just like it happens in Punjab.

You don't see this class system among dards. Basically north KP was once punjabi land.

 

[lastofthepatriots]

Gandharan people were indo-aryans, closest modern group is punjabi. Not hilli billi mountain dards btw. Youfzai village system is very similar to punjab villages which they adopted from punjabi like locals. Which is why you see artisan class among northen KP pashtuns like Youfzai who are nai, cobbler, moulvi and so on just like in punjab villages. They speak pashto but are not pashtuns by blood line or landownership. Just like it happens in Punjab.

You don't see this class system among dards. Basically north KP was once punjabi land.

Yousafzais are not pathans? Lmao

That’s a new one!

 

[hydrabadi_arab]

Yousafzais are not pathans? Lmao

That’s a new one!

Read again, Youfzai are pashtuns that migrated to north KP in 14th century and adopted local village system and castes.

 

[TNT]

That's pretty much undisputed

Ghandharan we're Indo Aryan speaking, Buddhists
While Pashtuns were a more nomadic people so like it's a new group, that's in my eyes atleast is undisputed



But this is what I think too
Yousafzai or Swatis before them we're the original Afghans but they took the native people into Thier fold, made a hierarchy based system but assimilated them into their tribes

This is a very common phenomenon Among Turks and Arabs and other tribal groups , so I do somewhat believe in this theory

I don't think the DnA is false though cause they show it everywhere but I think it's the way it is (swats yousafzai being closest to ancient ghandharan of swat)

Cause original Afghans assimilated the native dardics to such extent that culturally and every way they were still pukhtuns but this assimilation of the dardic people into their folds shows up in their DNA

The ancient ghandharans were not Pashtuns but they assimilated these people through an hierarchy into their fold

This is the theory that I somewhat lean towards as it it's a phenomen across the globe with other such tribal societies
As Egyptian are culturally Arab but are not like the saudis and Turks of turkey are not like CA Turks but both are culturally that, have tribes

but I don't know, just trying to make sense of it all cause I started thinking of this randomly like a week ago

I tend to agree with u too. There will always be DNA mix. It's also a fact that pashtun tribals would take local brides, multiple wives was common in pashtuns, like arabs. And they also loved sons who then follow theie father's tribe.
Also one point should be noted. Pashtuns did not invade budhists in current KPK, infact fought other muslims like swatis and dalazak. Though maybe pashtuns did take lands from budhists as Afghanistan was also anciently a Buddhist area.

 

[ghazi52]

.,.,.
Mountain Artillery In Action During Tirah Expedition, North-West Frontier, 1897 (c).

Many serious defects were exposed in the organisation, equipment and particularly the training of the Army in India throughout the 1897–98 frontier risings.

During the most serious outbreak of resistance to British rule since the Mutiny, nearly the entire strength of the Field Army was mobilised, involving the deployment of over 59,000 regular troops, 4,000 Imperial Service Troops, and 118 guns in parts of the Pathan borderland that were still virtually terra incognita.

1) Imperial troops suffered 470 dead, 1,524 wounded and ten missing in action during the extended fighting, losses exceeding those suffered during the Second Afghan War.

2) Despite the benefits of Dum-Dum bullets, machine guns, search lights, a rocket battery, field and mountain artillery, the large Anglo-Indian force encountered serious, albeit uncoordinated, resistance from the trans-border Pathan tribes.

The Tirah Campaign proved the most difficult and protracted military operation during the rising costing the Army in India 287 dead and 853 wounded. despite initial expectations in many quarters that British and Indian troops would only be opposed by lashkars still reliant on hand-to-hand combat supported by limited jezail or occasional rifle fire.

3) In his final report dated 24th February 1898 Major-General Sir William Lockhart summed up the difficulties encountered by imperial troops: "No campaign on the frontiers of India has been conducted under more trying and arduous circumstances than those encountered by the Tirah Expeditionary Force".

Article Reference - The Army In India And The Development Of Frontier Warfare, 1849–1947

 

[ghazi52]

.,,..,
British & Indian Soldiers Burning A Village In Tirah Valley, Tirah Expedition, 1897 (c).

Many serious defects were exposed in the organisation, equipment and particularly the training of the Army in India throughout the 1897–98 frontier risings. During the most serious outbreak of resistance to British rule since the Mutiny, nearly the entire strength of the Field Army was mobilised, involving the deployment of over 59,000 regular troops, 4,000 Imperial Service Troops, and 118 guns in parts of the Pathan borderland that were still virtually terra incognita.

1) Imperial troops suffered 470 dead, 1,524 wounded and ten missing in action during the extended fighting, losses exceeding those suffered during the Second Afghan War.

2) Despite the benefits of Dum-Dum bullets, machine guns, search lights, a rocket battery, field and mountain artillery, the large Anglo-Indian force encountered serious, albeit uncoordinated, resistance from the trans-border Pathan tribes. The Tirah Campaign proved the most difficult and protracted military operation during the rising costing the Army in India 287 dead and 853 wounded. despite initial expectations in many quarters that British and Indian troops would only be opposed by lashkars still reliant on hand-to-hand combat supported by limited jezail or occasional rifle fire.

3) In his final report dated 24th February 1898 Major-General Sir William Lockhart summed up the difficulties encountered by imperial troops: "No campaign on the frontiers of India has been conducted under more trying and arduous circumstances than those encountered by the Tirah Expeditionary Force".

Article Reference - The Army In India And The Development Of Frontier Warfare, 1849–1947 By T. R. Moreman, Published 1998.

 

[ghazi52]

.,.,.
Dr.Brydon was a British doctor in the British East India Company Army during the 1st Anglo-Afghan War. He was strong man who survived the impossible journey from Kabul via Khak-e Jabar and Sarobi District to Jalalabad & finally to India in January 1842. He lost many on the way.

Jagdalek Valley, Sarobi District of Kabul where Gen. Elphinstone's Army made its last stand against Afghans in January 1842. British Army was ambushed in southeast of Kabul in Tiraki Pass in Khak e Jabar & in Sarobi District. Over 4,500 British & 12000 Indian soldiers killed.

.,.,.
Dr.Brydon was a British doctor in the British East India Company Army during the 1st Anglo-Afghan War. He was strong man who survived the impossible journey from Kabul via Khak-e Jabar and Sarobi District to Jalalabad & finally to India in January 1842. He lost many on the way.

Jagdalek Valley, Sarobi District of Kabul where Gen. Elphinstone's Army made its last stand against Afghans in January 1842. British Army was ambushed in southeast of Kabul in Tiraki Pass in Khak e Jabar & in Sarobi District. Over 4,500 British & 12000 Indian soldiers killed.

 

[AgnosticIndian]

A Twitter thread on two (10th-14th century) descriptions of the Pashtuns by two famous travellers, and implications thereof:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1620398282374803456

Ends with some genetic analysis:

a genetic calculator I made on Genoplot, this sample is approximately 55% Ancient Iranic and 44% Ancient Indo-Aryan. Perhaps this points to the fact Pashtuns had been mixed with Indo-Aryans of Gandhara quite early on, or at least by the 3rd century CE.

 

[AgnosticIndian]

@Maula Jatt

(FYI Hindus most likely meant people of the Indus in a geographical sense but it'll derail this thread, we can talk about it in proper history thread)

Not quite. Al-Beruni was the "father of Indology", in the sense of study of India/Hindustan/Bharat by foreigners. His Tarikh al-Hindi talks of al-Hind, which is not limited to the Indus valley, but covers much more, a India of the past. He was a very interesting person, also considered one of the pioneers of "comparative religion", in some of his work he tries to analyse Hindu thought and Hindu-Muslim relations without bias towards any particular religion.

[A] gifted linguist, he was conversant in Khwarezmian, Persian, Arabic, Sanskrit, and also knew Greek, Hebrew, and Syriac. He spent much of his life in Ghazni, then capital of the Ghaznavids, in modern-day central-eastern Afghanistan. In 1017 he travelled to the Indian subcontinent and wrote a treatise on Indian culture entitled Tārīkh al-Hind (History of India), after exploring the Hindu faith practiced in India.

 

[ghazi52]

.,.,.,

History of Pashtuns

Pashtun saints, sufis and derveshes 1- Rahman Baba (Abdur Rahman Mohmand) 2- Khwaja Hasan Afghan (1206–1290 A.D) 3- Shaikh Michan Nia...

tarikh-info.blogspot.com