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HISTORY OF MALABAR :DISCUSSIONS.

Syrian christians were never untouchables :lol: .......... how desperate are you to twist history and play victim.

At least you have acknowledged the bias of the british to make you what you are :devil: ....Nothing stays the same forever and everything change with time.

Brahmins still exist in India ........ when did they become history ? :cheesy:
At least you have acknowledged the bias of the british to make you what you are :devil: ....
yes,i am a devil..
It was all happened because of the then caste discrimination and upper caste mongers like you prevailed throughout India..Thats why lakhs were converted to Islam and Christianity.....don't you find anything wrong in it??..better change yourself...
 
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yes,i am a devil..
It was all happened because of the then caste discrimination and upper caste mongers like you prevailed throughout India..Thats why lakhs were converted to Islam and Christianity.....don't you find anything wrong in it??..better change yourself...

I don't know why it happened, its only speculation. But its interesting to note that you blame the Hindus. :coffee:
 
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Since this thread has taken a peculiar turn to blame the kings of Kerala let me highlight some amazing stories especially of Rajarishi Rama Varma XV.

Rama_Varma_XV_of_Cochin.JPG


ee5c3dc9fb6a0f41fff7ac3f79decdd5._.jpg


He was an extraordinary scholar in Sanskrit and English and he earned high repute inside and outside the State and no less person than Lokamanya Tilak described him during World Sanskrit meeting in 1919, where Rajarshi was the Chief Guest, as A scholar among princes and a prince among scholars.

21mar_naac.jpg


His vision was the one which transformed Kochi (Cochin / Ernakulam) into the foremost city we know today. It was his dream for Kochi's growth and fuelled with one single rail line, that costs 20 times more than Cochin Treasury.

In 1860, the British introduced railway lines to British Malabar districts of Madras Presidency. Prince Rama Varma was pretty convinced such railway line into his country, would prosper the state and its business opportunity. In 1892, armed with a proposal, he met British Governor Ferdick Nicholson to start a line from Shornour, the border town between Kochi and Malabar to Kochi. The British engineers and economists laughed at the proposal and the governor out-rightly rejected the prince's proposals, calling it amateurish and unviable for economic reasons, even prima facia.

After the Prince returned back to Thrissur the spent the next three years drafting a proposal and economic turnaround plan, that eventually turned Kochi's fortunes.

In 1895, he was crowned as King of Kochi and appointed Diwan P.Rajagopalchari who was better influential in British Circles. To every one's suprise, in 1895 Kochi Durbar, the new King announced the state of Kochi will own and draw a new line from Shornour to Cochin, using its own funds.

It was more amusing to all. A state with Rs 2 lakh as its annual Budget, financing a Rs 44 Lakh worth project!!! The Britishers called the king lunatic and idiot, though Lord Curzon, the Viceroy of India have something else to say. Curzon felt, the King was challenging indirectly to British and asked Madras Governor to accept the challenge, by asking Madras Railway to work on the project, with finances from Kochi state.

The british then in 1896 called a meeting under Madras Governor asking King to explain, how he will finance it, the King presented an audited Balance sheet of Kochi Kingdom, with surplus of EXACTLY 44 LAKHS in state treasury?

How a kingdom with little or not more than 2 lakh Rs as reserve in budget, shows a surplus of 44 lakhs within a year?

It was the sheer determination of a leader who was ready to vision and work for his passions. The King sold his 11 sacred crowns, half of Hill Palaces Gold reserves, used up entire Temple gold treasures and on the top 14 sacred Golden Caparisons of Palace Elephants of Tripunithara Temple, leaving one alone back. The Travancore state gifted 62 acres of land, for rail line that passes via its enclaves in Edappally and Angamally

It does not end here. There was a shortage of 13 Lakhs yet. And a King of 19th century, used the buzzword of 21st century well Public-Private Participation. The King called up Kochi's businessman, asked them to contribute as much as they can. The King, being a role model for putting all his personal reserves into, made many business men to take Government Papers and Bonds. Every Temple in the Kochi state, was asked to finance for the project by subscribing to Government Paper. As a token, The Consort Queen Neytharamma, gave 300 sovereigns of Gold in public, which made a Psychological effect for several Palace ladies and nobles to give up gold.

In short, with a year from the King's Announcement in 1895, a funding of 44 lakhs were able to collect so. The Britishers were amazed at the skills of King to make a widespread funding for the project and sanction was duly accorded in 1899 and works started in full swing.

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Troubles donot end here. The Britisher suppliers were lagging in supply of materials, slowly raising the project cost. In addition, the King also was working to development of Parambikulam Cochin Forest Tramways. The Cochin Treasury suffered terribly. On the eve of Onam of 1900, there was just 2 days of money left in the state treasury.

The King went into full force again. He abolished the privy purse to all Male Princes to the Kochi Kingdom, thus saving around Rs 3.5 Lakh from the Royal Household provisions. The money was put again. The payment in gold to Lady members of Royal Household as allowance (known as Uttaradakizhi) stopped. Rather a sum of Rs 100 and new clothes was paid instead. The Palace asked its staff to have Onam feast from the Palace itself, rather than issuance of Onam Allowances to all, saving more than a lakh of rupees.

And once again, the King went to Tripunithara Temple, to open up remaining treasures and raised the balance amount of 20 Lakh Rs for funding.

Sensing the Britishers are delaying in issue of rolling stock and few stretches of line, the King directly contacted German Political agent for supply for the same. The Germans were assisting the King in building Parambikulam Tramway project, supplied the remaining tracks, rolling stock and signals and avoided another issue of project over-run.

The issue never ended there. Just before eve of final completion of the project, there was a shortage of another Rs 3.42 Lakhs. The Britishers were sure, the King can never raise the same. However be surprised, the King raised it by taking a Loan from Chidambaram Temple Authorities.

By 1902, the line was ready. The King also completed his state Mansion near to the Railway station to view the first train chugging into Kochi (Today's High Court Bldg). And that happened on June 2nd 1902, when German Made Ivse Steamer chugging into Ernakulam Terminus. The Passenger traffic started on July 10th 1902, with the King and his wife as first passengers.

Kochi got a new line and new impetus of growth. Rest is History, how Kochi became the state's commercial capital.

But the irony to the story is that, the same line line which brought glory to King Rama Varma, also resulted in his downfall.
 
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Could you elaborate on this part?

The King earned the enmity of not just his family members for stopping their Privy purse but also for selling 3/4th of Palace money to be used privately for generations. This also turned the Britishers as his sworn enemy.

The Britishers couldn't accept the fact, a mere Indian King, able to complete a rail line within 3 years, that costs 20 times more than his ability. However much more than an ego issue, there is solid politics behind the enemity. The King was acting too favourable to Germans, who helped the King to start Kerala's first Tramway project at Parambikulam, that helped the King to access into thick forests of the region and monopoly over the woods and timber, which was sold to German companies based in Kochi. The Germans were given preference in supply of technology and rolling stock over British, citing avoiding delays and cost over-runs. The King even hoisted a meeting with German Political Agent at Hill Palace and the German Emperor awarding a medal as token of friendship between Kochi and Germany. These factors made Britishers to fear whether the King is favoring German powers, especially when Europe was into a danger zone between Axis and Allied powers on eve of WW.1

The immediate provocation of British, happened on the fact, H.H The King Rama Varma and Consort Queen Neythar Amma Madhavi visited German Naval Ship Woldden at Kochi Outer Harbour carry Prince Kaiser-I of Germany. British had intense fear whether Kochi would align with Germany and provide an access to India as a base, especially in context of eve of World War 1.

Palace officials of Kochi have took photographs, which however leaked out,

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All these activities alarmed the British and they started threatening to annex the kingdome if he did not Abdicate. They also started poisoning the mind of Queen of Kochi against the King, citing lunatic and ill health to remove him. Finally all these political intriguing and owing to continuous pressure within family as well as government, the King signed abdication paper in Dec of 1914.

He stepped out Hill Palace only with a personal trunk of clothes and lived in Wadakkancherry near Railway line to see the trains chugging off. He finally died in Madras on 1932.


A sad ending to one of the greatest kings of kerala.
 
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I don't know why it happened, its only speculation. But its interesting to note that you blame the Hindus. :coffee:
yeah..but the converts were also Hindus,ne???...below is just one example that was happened in southern trivandrum and kanyakumari district..
..... 19th century Travancore had a rigid caste hierarchy. There also existed a strict code of respect and mannerisms enforced by the state. The women were not allowed to
carry pots on their hips or wear clothes that covered their breasts. Baring of chest to higher status was considered a sign of respect, by both males and females. The Nadar climbers of Travancore fared a
little better than their Tirunelveli
counterparts, but, however, suffered
severe social disabilities, unlike their
Tirunelveli counterparts, under the rigid caste hierarchy of Travancore. As Swami Vivekanandha stated, Kerala was a mad asylum of castes. The Nadar climber women were not allowed to cover their bosoms, as most of the non- Brahmin women, to punctuate their low status.
However the aristocratic Nadan women, their counterparts, had the rights to cover their bosom. Uneasy with their social status, a large number of Nadar climbers embraced Christianity........
 
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You keep saying "Saligrama brahmins" as if they mean something. There is no record of any brahmin community called saligrama bhramins.

Yes, there is the stone which I have referred to in my earlier posts.

I'm simply not discounting the possibility of a migrant Brahmin group that came to be called as Saligrama brahmins in Sri Lanka in ancient times.

But to be frank, haven't heard of any Brahmin group taking to the boat. Why would any Brahmin group like to become an outcast/pariah is beyond me. :undecided:
 
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yeah..but the converts were also Hindus,ne???...below is just one example that was happened in southern trivandrum and kanyakumari district..
..... 19th century Travancore had a rigid caste hierarchy. There also existed a strict code of respect and mannerisms enforced by the state. The women were not allowed to
carry pots on their hips or wear clothes that covered their breasts. Baring of chest to higher status was considered a sign of respect, by both males and females. The Nadar climbers of Travancore fared a
little better than their Tirunelveli
counterparts, but, however, suffered
severe social disabilities, unlike their
Tirunelveli counterparts, under the rigid caste hierarchy of Travancore. As Swami Vivekanandha stated, Kerala was a mad asylum of castes. The Nadar climber women were not allowed to cover their bosoms, as most of the non- Brahmin women, to punctuate their low status.
However the aristocratic Nadan women, their counterparts, had the rights to cover their bosom. Uneasy with their social status, a large number of Nadar climbers embraced Christianity........

Baring the breast of both men and women were a mark of respect and covering the breast was a mark of disrespect. They were free to cover it at home.

Even namboodri women who went to the temple or before the king had to bare their breasts. Stop twisting it out of proportion to get sympathy. That was the culture and social norm in Kerala. It probably was to ensure no weapons were hidden.

Here is a picture from 1772 called Nairs of cochin.

1d2e72f30cea634707aa74eba4b425ce._.jpg


Here is a 1510 commemorative medal by F Fonseca showing the king Zamorine sitting bare breasted.

12a3b4785b5e2f2c59b19891f651fb14._.jpg


The British imposed Heavy taxes on all the people of kerala, however during the famine 1814 those Nadars who converted to Christianity were exempted from taxes for one year. And this tax exemption was extended for more years.

The Nadar christian converts was given the right to cover their breasts by british law but the same did not cover Hindu women. It took 30 years for Hindu women to get the same right, that too brought on by the king.

It was no different from the Jazia the muslims imposed on Hindus to get them to convert to Islam.

Spare me your bogus sob stories. Its only opportunism combined with economic exploitation that got the Nadars converted.

This is collaborated by british christian missionaries like Ringeltaube themselves when they said he personally gave to each of his Christians a certificate which was to be held to exempt from tax. Ringletaube writes “There was a rush of five thousand Shanars (now called Nadars) upon me who had been long waiting for an opportunity to shake off the Poll tax and ‘Ooliam’ service attached to their caste, and which they hoped to effect by connecting themselves with me. As soon as the people were convinced that no temporal advantages were to be obtained, their zeal for the Protestant religion collapsed."

In 1813 he writes rather dejectedly. I have about 600 Christians with me and about three or four may have a longing towards their salvation. The rest have come with all sorts of motives.

The Shanars/Nadars that though they embraced Christianity were a very proud community and very self centred. When people from other communities lower than them wanted to become Christians they were not accepted by the Shanars/Nadars. On many occasions the Shanars/Nadars refused to sit along with the converts from other lower communities. :lol:

So much for your sob stories. The standard "secular" snake oil.
 
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karawa-sinhalized karaiyar Tamils??
No, Karaiyar is only the Tamil equivalent caste of Karava. But their origin may be the same.
They comprise of three great clans, the Kuru-kula, Varuna-kula and Mihindu-kula who claim to be of Kshatriya origin.
They look upon the great plain of Kurukshetra near modern-day Delhi in North India as their ancestral home. It was here, they believe, that their ancestors the Kauravas were defeated at the hands of the Pandavas in the great Bharata war of C.1000 B.C. so vividly described in the Indian epic Mahabharata.
Following their defeat, the Kauravas migrated to various parts of the subcontinent. Some of them migrated to Bengal where they came to be known as Kaurs, while others found their way to South India before migrating to Sri Lanka sometime during the fifteenth century.

Govigama-some sections of them had telegu ancestry
I'm not sure. But Sri Lankan Gypsy people have their ancestry with AP who mostly speak Telugu.

.in fact the last king of kandy was a telegu naicker??
Wasn't it Madurai Nayak even though they spoke Telugu. From the first recorded King, Vijaya's time; Sinhalese kings took their wives from ruling clans of Southern India. When King Narendra Sinha, died without an offspring, the brother of his Madurai Nayak queen succeeded the throne. However they adopted Sinhalese names and the Buddhism.
 
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I'm simply not discounting the possibility of a migrant Brahmin group that came to be called as Saligrama brahmins in Sri Lanka in ancient times.

But to be frank, haven't heard of any Brahmin group taking to the boat. Why would any Brahmin group like to become an outcast/pariah is beyond me. :undecided:

There are far too many things wrong with that story.

1. Crossing the ocean was not permitted for a Brahmin.
2. Even if they did most would never resort to physical labour to earn his living. Such was his training.
3. Being the highest caste, it was very unlikely they would convert to any other religion.
 
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1. Crossing the ocean was not permitted for a Brahmin.
According to this belief Saliyas were of Brahmin origin and were brought across the sea from Malabar (i.e. Kerala) by ship. However, since they would 'lose caste' if they touched the water, they had to be carried ashore by moors on their heads,which is depicted in their flag.

2. Even if they did most would never resort to physical labour to earn his living. Such was his training.
Another story;
The second wave of Namboodiris arrived in Srilanka, when the Buddhist monks in Sri Lanka refused to perform the rituals associated with the coronation ceremony of Prince Wathhimi(Galey Bandara Deyyo) (the son of King Bhuvenaka Bahu I (1272–1284)), his mother, whose name was "Fathima", and hailed from the village of "Aswedduma" in the Kurunegala district, was a Muslim and was the only non-buddhist member of the King's harem, the prince was sent to live amongst his maternal relatives at Beruwala, for his safety, by the King, and was greatly influenced by Islam, his maternal grandfather even named him "Ismail", but the King preferred the name "Wathhimi Bandara", when the King died, Prince Wathhimi was the only son the King had, and as a consequence was eligible to be the King, the buddhist monks were worried, about the princes inclination towards islam, and refused to perform the rituals for the coronation ceremony, and as a consequence, the prince sent a Muslim nobleman from beruwala, to bring Brahmins from Kerala, as the Muslim nobleman was unable to persuade any Brahmin to come over to Srilanka,he had to hatch a plan to kidnap them, and finally succeeded in getting a group of 8 Namboodiri Brahmins, from the village of Shaligramam in Kerala, to come on board the ship for a gambling game, and as the legend goes, while the Brahmins were fully concentrating, with the game of gambling, the ship started to sail towards Beruwala, without the Brahmins noticing the ship's movements,when it reached the shores of Beruwala,the Brahmins realised they were tricked,and refused to disembark, the King's soldiers who were waiting to receive them shot one of the Brahmins with an arrow, so as to force them to disembark, and as a result one of the Brahmins died and his body fell overboard, the remaining 7 still refused to disembark, as Brahmins their culture imposed a rule that,after crossing the sea to go to another country,their feet should not touch water or they risked losing their caste status, subsequently the remaining 7 were persuaded to disembark, and were brought ashore, upon the shoulders of Moor men,they were received by the Prince with great honours, the Brahmins subsequently wanted to return to Kerala after performing the ceremony, but the King, who was pleased with them, wanted them to stay on in Sri Lanka, and offered them royal maidens in marriage at the royal courts.

3. Being the highest caste, it was very unlikely they would convert to any other religion.
The Nambudiri flag of the Salagamas vividly illustrates the arrival of the Brahmins at Beruwala. They assimilated well into the Sinhalese community and their descendants formed the Salagama caste, along with "Agampadi"Mercenary Soldiers who came from Kerala & Tamil Nadu.
Salagama caste
 
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This is a 1786 rare engraving of the king of Zamorine.

7732ce039ef72f00bfe026c3fe8a8d45._.jpg


The Oldest know drawing of Nairs and the king of Chochin. This was posted earlier, but these are better quality pictures. Drawn in 1508.

3c03d079645011528673959d52900cbe._.jpg


The+King+of+Cochin+right+half+-1024x768-2852.jpg
 
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According to this belief Saliyas were of Brahmin origin and were brought across the sea from Malabar (i.e. Kerala) by ship. However, since they would 'lose caste' if they touched the water, they had to be carried ashore by moors on their heads,which is depicted in their flag.

Another story;
The second wave of Namboodiris arrived in Srilanka, when the Buddhist monks in Sri Lanka refused to perform the rituals associated with the coronation ceremony of Prince Wathhimi(Galey Bandara Deyyo) (the son of King Bhuvenaka Bahu I (1272–1284)), his mother, whose name was "Fathima", and hailed from the village of "Aswedduma" in the Kurunegala district, was a Muslim and was the only non-buddhist member of the King's harem, the prince was sent to live amongst his maternal relatives at Beruwala, for his safety, by the King, and was greatly influenced by Islam, his maternal grandfather even named him "Ismail", but the King preferred the name "Wathhimi Bandara", when the King died, Prince Wathhimi was the only son the King had, and as a consequence was eligible to be the King, the buddhist monks were worried, about the princes inclination towards islam, and refused to perform the rituals for the coronation ceremony, and as a consequence, the prince sent a Muslim nobleman from beruwala, to bring Brahmins from Kerala, as the Muslim nobleman was unable to persuade any Brahmin to come over to Srilanka,he had to hatch a plan to kidnap them, and finally succeeded in getting a group of 8 Namboodiri Brahmins, from the village of Shaligramam in Kerala, to come on board the ship for a gambling game, and as the legend goes, while the Brahmins were fully concentrating, with the game of gambling, the ship started to sail towards Beruwala, without the Brahmins noticing the ship's movements,when it reached the shores of Beruwala,the Brahmins realised they were tricked,and refused to disembark, the King's soldiers who were waiting to receive them shot one of the Brahmins with an arrow, so as to force them to disembark, and as a result one of the Brahmins died and his body fell overboard, the remaining 7 still refused to disembark, as Brahmins their culture imposed a rule that,after crossing the sea to go to another country,their feet should not touch water or they risked losing their caste status, subsequently the remaining 7 were persuaded to disembark, and were brought ashore, upon the shoulders of Moor men,they were received by the Prince with great honours, the Brahmins subsequently wanted to return to Kerala after performing the ceremony, but the King, who was pleased with them, wanted them to stay on in Sri Lanka, and offered them royal maidens in marriage at the royal courts.

The Nambudiri flag of the Salagamas vividly illustrates the arrival of the Brahmins at Beruwala. They assimilated well into the Sinhalese community and their descendants formed the Salagama caste, along with "Agampadi"Mercenary Soldiers who came from Kerala & Tamil Nadu.
Salagama caste

The simple answer to this is as per Dharma shastra and Baudhayana Sutra, samudrayana or voyage by ocean causes pataniya or loss of caste. That is why in ancient time NO brahmin will do it willingly or otherwise.

Brahmins are the last persons to start gambling since Mahabhrata has some apt stories about gambling. Once the cross the ocean, they have already lost their caste so it is irrelevant if they touch the water or not.

Once you lose your caste you become an "untouchable", one who is caste-less and without any social standing. You become a social outcasts, so who would want to do it ?
 
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Baring the breast of both men and women were a mark of respect and covering the breast was a mark of disrespect. They were free to cover it at home.

Even namboodri women who went to the temple or before the king had to bare their breasts. Stop twisting it out of proportion to get sympathy. That was the culture and social norm in Kerala. It probably was to ensure no weapons were hidden.

Here is a picture from 1772 called Nairs of cochin.

View attachment 67032

Here is a 1510 commemorative medal by F Fonseca showing the king Zamorine sitting bare breasted.

View attachment 67033

The British imposed Heavy taxes on all the people of kerala, however during the famine 1814 those Nadars who converted to Christianity were exempted from taxes for one year. And this tax exemption was extended for more years.

The Nadar christian converts was given the right to cover their breasts by british law but the same did not cover Hindu women. It took 30 years for Hindu women to get the same right, that too brought on by the king.

It was no different from the Jazia the muslims imposed on Hindus to get them to convert to Islam.

Spare me your bogus sob stories. Its only opportunism combined with economic exploitation that got the Nadars converted.

This is collaborated by british christian missionaries like Ringeltaube themselves when they said he personally gave to each of his Christians a certificate which was to be held to exempt from tax. Ringletaube writes “There was a rush of five thousand Shanars (now called Nadars) upon me who had been long waiting for an opportunity to shake off the Poll tax and ‘Ooliam’ service attached to their caste, and which they hoped to effect by connecting themselves with me. As soon as the people were convinced that no temporal advantages were to be obtained, their zeal for the Protestant religion collapsed."

In 1813 he writes rather dejectedly. I have about 600 Christians with me and about three or four may have a longing towards their salvation. The rest have come with all sorts of motives.

The Shanars/Nadars that though they embraced Christianity were a very proud community and very self centred. When people from other communities lower than them wanted to become Christians they were not accepted by the Shanars/Nadars. On many occasions the Shanars/Nadars refused to sit along with the converts from other lower communities. :lol:

So much for your sob stories. The standard "secular" snake oil.
...but today south travancore regions like neyattinkara,poovar,parasala has fairly good amount of Christians,overhemly NADARS and in kannyakumari district(44-47% Christian population,3rd highest in India after ernakulam,kottayam of Kerala)....

In Travancore, Cochin and Malabar, no female was allowed to cover their upper part of the body in front of Upper castes of Kerala until the 19th century. Under the support of Ayya
Vaikundar ,[1] some communities fought for their right to wear upper clothes and the upper class resorted to attacking them in 1818. In 1819, the Rani of Travancore announced that the lower castes including the
Nadar climber women have no right to wear upper clothes like most lower non-Brahmin castes of Kerala. [However, the aristocratic Nadar women of the region were exempted
from this restriction. Violence against Nadar climber women who revolted against this continued and reached its peak in 1858 across the kingdom, notably in southern taluks of
Neyyattinkara and Neyyur. ....

1. Crossing the ocean was not permitted for a Brahmin.
this is not true,i think...
There are few Tamil Brahmin communities among eelam Tamils of Srilanka too...
 
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