Hindu Holy Men Behind Terrorist Attacks!!!!

[roadrunner]

Godhra train burning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[twoplustwoisfour]

And where in that article did you find that cause of the fire was 'accident' or 'someone like Lt. Purohit'?

There was one commission, the U C Bannerjee Panel who said that it was an accident, but if you care to read through the article, it says that the ONE MAN panel gave that report ONE DAY before elections. Anyone can see that it was a political move. The same has been discredited by everyone, including the courts who called it 'illegal' and 'unconstitutional'. The results of the Panel are invalid

Oh, and I still don't see proof of 'someone like Lt. Purohit' there.

 

[Crypto]

An Indian court has remanded in custody a Hindu holy man accused of a string of bomb attacks previously thought to be the work of Muslim militants.

Swami Aseemanand allegedly admitted to placing bombs on a train to Pakistan, at a Sufi shrine and at a mosque.

He has also allegedly confessed to carrying out two assaults on the southern Indian town of Malegaon, which has a large Muslim population.

He has been remanded in custody for the four attacks until 27 January.

Headway
Police say that Mr Aseemanand gave them details of his role in the mosque attack in the city of Hyderabad in 2007 in addition to attacks on a graveyard in Malegaon and a Sufi shrine in Ajmer.

Several Muslim men were arrested for those attacks - and some reports said that they had been tortured. Most are still in custody.

Mr Aseemanand was arrested in November after being in hiding for two years, police said.

According to India's Tehelka magazine, which has obtained a copy of his 42-page confession, he told his interrogators that the attacks on Muslim places were in response to attacks by Islamist militants in India.

It quotes him as saying that many of those involved in the bombings were members of Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) - the right-wing parent organisation of India's main opposition Bharatiya Janata Party.

The bomb attack on the Samjhauta (Friendship) Express train travelling from India to Pakistan in February 2007 killed 68 people. Many of the passengers who died in the incident were Pakistanis returning home.

The 2008 blast in the town of Malegaon killed seven people and left more than 100 injured. A female Hindu priest, Sadhwi Pragya Singh Thakur, and a serving Indian army officer were among 11 people who were arrested in connection with the attack.

In May 2007, at least 14 people were killed in an explosion during Friday prayers at the Mecca mosque in Hyderabad. It is one of India's biggest mosques, and there was rioting afterwards.

And in October 2007, a bomb attack on a famous Sufi Muslim shrine in the city of Ajmer - in the state of Rajasthan - killed two people.

Anger over leaks
Most of these blasts were initially blamed on local militant groups and several Muslim men were arrested for alleged involvement.

But correspondents say the police were unable to make much headway in their investigations.

Opposition politicians were angered recently after leaked diplomatic cables suggested Rahul Gandhi, widely tipped as a future Indian PM, believed Hindu radicals might pose a greater threat than Islamist militants.

According to Wikileaks, Mr Gandhi told a US envoy last year there was some support among Indian Muslims for militants such as Lashkar-e-Taiba.

But he told ambassador Timothy Roemer the greater threat could come from the growth of radical Hindu groups.

BBC News - Hindu holy man Aseemanand in custody over India blasts

 

[Major Shaitan Singh]

New Delhi, Jan 14: Swami Aseemanand has opened Pandora's box of troubles for the RSS and other Hindutva elements. His explosive rhetoric caused a flurry among right wing supporters after naming some key RSS leaders in the various blast cases that rocked India.


Buzz up!There are more controversies in Aseemanand's kitty after a private television channel aired a copy of a letter written by him to the Presidents of both India and Pakistan. He had written the letter on December 20, 2010 and had confessed to his involvement on the crimes committed. He had also revealed that his change of heart was because of a Muslim boy who was falsely implicated in the Malegaon blast and is jailed. The Malegaon was found to be the handiwork of Hindu extremists, according to confessions by Aseemanand.


The letter was apparently sent to Aseemanand's brother who was asked to forward them to both President's. But his brother did not send them to the President's offices. The letter now becomes crucial evidence after it was found by investigative agencies.

This has proved that Swami Aseemanand had not given out the explicit details under pressure from any parties or investigative agencies. Aseemanand's confession had caused major embarrassment to right wing groups and the CBI recorded his confessions on December 18, 2010

I sometime feel ashmed to be called Indian because of these people.

Its simple "Term Indian Muslim youth a terrorist and kill them"

This has been happening for last 60 yrs.... killing Muslim and baring them from development and equal gorwth.
Can anyone tell me what is the percentage of Indian muslim growth after independence.I think its -100%

 

[Joe Shearer]

Who cares if he was a small time pundit or a cult leader, the point is that the mishaps where the blame was being so strongly put on ISI and GOP by India have turned out to be the work of their own.
May be in 3 years time we will get to know that the Mumbai attacks were planned by Shiv Sena and they hired Kasab to put the blame on Pakistan.

I am afraid that is a totally misleading and disinformative conclusion. If you tried to understand the situation with some seriousness rather than indulge in NIGGYSOB games, it would help the situation.

1. The blame was apparently put on ISI and GOP because for a period of years, these terrorist attacks have been traced back to the ISI and to GOP. As a result, some lazy cops, instead of working to the clues found and the evidence on hand, reported that this was due to SIMI activists, who have made no secret of their affiliation to ISI.

2. The reports of these lazy cops, including the Maharashtra and Rajasthan police forces, led to Government of India coming to the wrong conclusions.

3. When Swami Aseemanand, aka Jatin Chatterjee, aka some Sarkar, was arrested, it took no time for him to pour out a confession. The reason is vastly interesting, and serves to tell a sociological tale of its own: he was overcome by remorse and guilt when he realised that his actions had caused innocent Muslim boys to be jailed and innocent Muslim families to be hurt.

4. His confessions were repudiated by his lawyer, who tried his best to argue that these were confessions extracted by force (in law, both in Pakistan and in India, a confession before a magistrate is considered a piece of admissible evidence: the same confession within a police station is not). Unfortunately, his client let him down very badly.

5. This swamy realised that the lawyer was blocking his confession. He repeated it, and wrote letters to the President of India and the President of Pakistan confessing what he had done.

I take pride in the fact that one section of the Indian police, the NIA, corrected the mistakes made by other sections, and went after the true culprits without bothering about religious labels. This cannot happen in parallel circumstances in Pakistan. The Pakistan establishment and administration have completely lost it as far as India is concerned.

It is also interesting how this small-time preacher, whose earlier history largely consisted of work among the tribals of Gujarat, converting them to Hinduism, and opposing Christian missionaries trying to convert them to Christianity, has been grappling with his conscience. Again, nothing that the fanatics launched at us are capable of.

If it should turn out that there was a conspiracy and that the Shiv Sena were behind the conspiracy, and Kasab was a tool of theirs, be sure that you will hear the news from India, from institutions and departments that do not work to sectarian principles. This is a distinction between our two countries that you should never forget, that in spite of a thousand aberrations and distortions sought to be brought in by our own bad influences, we manage to stick to the rule of law, sometimes with ease, sometimes with the greatest of difficulty. We don't hide our mistakes or pretend to the world or to ourselves that these mistakes are due to ideological or emotional reasons; we acknowledge our mistakes, correct them as best as wel can, and move on.

If you stop to think for a moment, you should wish that this could be so in your country, rather than be small-minded and labour under the misapprehension that the incident will serve you as ammunition of some kind to score points against India. It won't help you, not as long as that there is a single Indian left alive who believes in moral integrity rather than expedience, in straight dealings rather than craft and wile.

@Major Shaitan Singh

I agree with you wholeheartedly that we have to do a better job of uplifting our minorities, more by empowering them than by spoonfeeding them with reserved quota jobs, and simultaneously bashing them first when trouble breaks out. But (and there is always a but).......

In this case, it is difficult for this agnostic to see why you are ashamed of being a Hindu. Your man has acted with a moral sensitivity that was appropriate, and if he acts on these moral impulses, reveals the role of the scoundrels in the Sangh Parivar whose money and backing propelled the scheme, and takes his punishment, you should feel proud that some Hindu still has the moral capacity to be ashamed of putting others in trouble.

Some more to think about:

Opposition politicians were angered recently after leaked diplomatic cables suggested Rahul Gandhi, widely tipped as a future Indian PM, believed Hindu radicals might pose a greater threat than Islamist militants.

According to Wikileaks, Mr Gandhi told a US envoy last year there was some support among Indian Muslims for militants such as Lashkar-e-Taiba.

But he told ambassador Timothy Roemer the greater threat could come from the growth of radical Hindu groups.

Both the Congress and the Sangh Parivar are a rare collection of thugs. We should not depend on them. There is an underlying decency, a failure to be deadened by moral decay, which is a saving grace for our ccountry.

 

[Thorough Pro]

no
no pundit can tell that what is right and what is wrong according to hinduism. They are their just to perform rituals. Nobody would listen to a pundit if he would say something which is unacceptable to his sensible mind.
and those who influence people are not religious people , they are just politicians.

The issue is not wether a holy hindu figure (pundit) can influence religious beliefs of fellow community, the fact is he was involved in acts of terrorism and he convinced other fellows of his religion to assist/follow him in these terrorist activities and killed a number of innoicent people.

Unfortunately all acts of terrorism happening in India are blamed on GOP by GOI without proper investigation. The real fact is that there is a serious threat of hindu extremism as exhibited by some individuals of the hindu religion which may grow and get out of hands and rightly pointed out by Rahaul Gandhi.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@roadrunner

In the past, your posts - those that come to mind readily, and some come to mind as very pleasant memories indeed, because of the erudition and research that had gone into them - were those of a committed, but fair, observer. It is sad that you seem to have retained only your commitment in writing the present posts.

At least it's a step closer to admitting the diabolical action of false flag has been committed by India to escalate tensions in the region.

If by false flag, you imply agents of the Indian state pretending to be agents of another state, that is a deplorable statement, and it is regrettable that you should stoop to such a low level. There is not a shred of evidence to prove that.

If Lt. Col. Purohit's involvement is what inspired this slander, then such inspiration is in disregard of the complete abhorrence that his disloyalty to his oath and his treachery to the nation inspired within his service and among military men throughout the Indian armed forces. I have not said 'deliberate' disregard, but it was a toss-up.

You must be aware, given your previous displays of knowledge and general information, that the Indian Army does not act without the authority and direction of civilian policy makers, does not command its own secret intelligence army, and does not mount covert operations anywhere in the world, other than unit level intelligence-gathering in several specific disturbed areas.

It is sad that you have resorted to slandering a proud fighting force, and it is unexpected coming from you.

They do kill Pakistanis.

This should make Indians do something about it. But i don't think it will, since killing some Pakistanis is justified in their minds.

The only possible conclusion from these sentences is that some external factor is weighing on your mind. I do not know who it is that you are referring to when you say "They do kill Pakistanis", and what action you are referring to. If it is Pakistani serving soldiers and officers who get in the line of fire, or who are involved in military misadventures such as Kargil, yes, Indian troops do kill Pakistanis.

If Pakistanis were killed deliberately, Indians would certainly do something about it. Unlike your country and your countrymen and women, we do not cower before our military; we take pride in the fact that they respect the democratic republic that we are, and our sixty-four year old decision to abide by the rule of law. Our politicians, corrupt, inept, befuddled or whatever other epithets you select for them, control the military, not the other way around. It is shameful that you should assign to our nation the impediments and handicaps of your own. We have our own weaknesses and our faults; they are not the weaknesses and faults that others have, and assigning these to us to score points is really pathetic and degrading.

However, the point of false flags is more political than killing x Pakistanis. It is to generate tensions between Indians and Pakistanis so that peace processes can be derailed, or just to keep the two squabbling.

You are to be congratulated on anticipating what hot-headed and intemperate Indians, many of them fan-boys, will be tempted to say, that these acts can only originate from a revanchist, frustrated party that lives for the day when it can take revenge for its defeats, defeats that a nation of super-human beings, the chosen, should never have suffered, indeed, could never have suffered except for the treachery of other humans - such treacherous humans ranging from the enemy, to the ally who was not an ally, to the all-weather friend whose barometer was out of order, to finally the leadership itself, drunk and sunk in the pleasures of the flesh, corrupt and unable to lead the nation to its deserved victory.

As long as you have this fixed idea, and continue to wage war, sometimes openly, more often through hired assassins and through treachery, war not against soldiers but against innocent men, women and children, however shrill your voices on occasions like this, you lack credibility. Even to your own. Your own magazines and blogs are clear evidence what you stand for today, as the Terror Central of the world.

You are so quick to claim, in broad generic and wholly misleading terms, that "It is to generate tensions between Indians and Pakistanis so that peace processes can be derailed, or just to keep the two squabbling", in a way that makes it seem that the Indian state is the party responsible for this, that it takes away attention from the precisely described behaviour of the Pakistani state, under the command and control of the Pakistani military, or to be accurate, the Pakistani Army.

If anybody in India shares these sentiments, it is a political party, an important and powerful political party, which enjoys the support of a large number of Indians not for its hideous parochialism and hatred of a particular religion, but because of the gross corruption and financial greed of the other option.

Try, for a moment, if you can put aside your chosen role as leader of the storm troops of the Internet, to visualise a robust and active polity, where a party which is discredited, which does not enjoy the support of any of the country's minorities taken as entire entities, cannot do much but frustrate the earnest and sincere efforts of others.

What they are trying to do is well apparent to Indian opinion, and Indian opinion is committed to stopping them in their tracks and reversing the damage that they have done. It was not the CIA, not Mossad, not any alien organisation that got through to identify the authors of these murders and acts of terror, but our own agencies, working to their professional discipline, unafraid to lay their hands on the shoulders of the perpetrators, howsoever well-connected and influential, and operating with the active encouragement and enthusiastic support of the Supreme Court.

Your troubled thoughts regarding our difficulties are solicitous and kind, but as some of you may have noticed, we are acting on our own, whenever, wherever there is an opportunity to act.

One example was the Godhra train massacre that led to the Gujerate massacre. It was not Muslims that did it, but that is the way it was portrayed. Eventually they found it was an accidental fire on the train. I suspect it was a step further, and probably arson committed by someone like Lt Purohit. The blame falling on Muslims was all too quick in that instance. The massacres were to follow.

What is your point? That the Indian state did this? Are you unaware of what is going on? and of the noose tightening slowly but gradually around the perpetrators? "The mills of God grind slow, but they grind exceeding small". For your ready reference: Teesta Setalvad is not a Muslim. Nor are 90% of her active support structure. It is not a Muslim set of officers who have unravelled the truth, it is a set of Indians who have set aside their other affiliations, in deference to their oaths of service, and have dug deep down. An example, frankly, that we are proud of.

But some Indians end up being killed also, so it's not in the interest of the average Indian to back these.

This one sentence is sufficient to ensure that you are never, ever mistaken to be fair or as worthy of respect ever again.

 

[SQ8]

@joe..
Do false flag operations not exist.. or have they NEVER been carried out?
Given the extremely positive view you paint of Indian society.. is it probable that every operation to tackle a security threat to India is open to the Indian public?
That if so needed.. the various security agencies in India cannot mount a covert and classified operation without the knowledge of the public or the law.
You assert the RSS and congress as thugs.. yet they fall into the definition of law-makers for you.. but if the same thugs were to be in law making in Pakistan.. there is lawlessness?
Surely.. you dont imply that India's hands are clean?
Maybe not false flag operations.. but given the security threat our military poses.. would it not befall the Indian security agencies to counter this threat by every possible means.. is it not their mandate to protect the Indian citizen from whatever they classify as a threat??
If it is advantageous to India to create a situation where it can justify arms purchases..for greater security.. will that not happen?
infact.. leave the arms purchase aside.. if buying a certain commodity at a loss and creating a market shortage for everyone later benefits India's economy in a big way.. would the GoI not take the initiative?.

I agree the water is more murky this side of the river.. but the "saint" you paint the intelligence services of India as is a little over the top.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@joe..
Do false flag operations not exist.. or have they NEVER been carried out?

This raises a point that has arisen before and may arise again: on a number of times, I have been challenged to quote my sources of knowledge about statements that I have made. There is little that I can say to clarify my sources, except a bland statement which will be criticised immediately, to the effect that i do know about certain aspects.

First, my definition of a false flag operation is an operation carried out by the Indian Army, Navy or Air Force under the flag or the colours of the Army, Navy or Air Force of, say, Pakistan.

Please note that I am not including others, only Pakistan.

By this definition, subsequent to 71 to fairly recently, approximately three years ago, there is not a single known instance of a false flag operation.

Very specific to that definition, false flag operations do not exist, and they have not been carried out against Pakistan in the time period that I have mentioned.


Given the extremely positive view you paint of Indian society.. is it probable that every operation to tackle a security threat to India is open to the Indian public?

I am not aware that I painted a positive view of Indian society; quite the contrary. I did however try to convey to you and other contributors that the military does not undertake such operations, and that these are not sanctioned, since sometime in the 70s, by the civil authority responsible for counter-intelligence and counter-espionage.

That if so needed.. the various security agencies in India cannot mount a covert and classified operation without the knowledge of the public or the law.

Without supervision, and without a mandate for the action from the political level - no. Under no circumstances. This was attempted, outside their mandate given, by an obscure group, they were detected within months, and shut down. The detection and the shutting down are neither of them in public record, but were carried out with the utmost speed and secrecy.

You assert the RSS and congress as thugs.. yet they fall into the definition of law-makers for you.. but if the same thugs were to be in law making in Pakistan.. there is lawlessness?

It is wrong of you to impute that to me. I have never said that. Please go through what I have said with greater care.

It will help if I reproduce my original remarks in their entirety, and then respond to your question.

Please go through sections A, B, C or D below. Where, in which sentence, implicit or explicit, have I stated what you have quoted me stating?

What I have said, and don't mind repeating, is, "we do not cower before our military; we take pride in the fact that they respect the democratic republic that we are, and our sixty-four year old decision to abide by the rule of law."

Tell me which part of that is untrue. Or amounts to what you have imputed to me.

A. If Pakistanis were killed deliberately, Indians would certainly do something about it. Unlike your country and your countrymen and women, we do not cower before our military; we take pride in the fact that they respect the democratic republic that we are, and our sixty-four year old decision to abide by the rule of law. Our politicians, corrupt, inept, befuddled or whatever other epithets you select for them, control the military, not the other way around. It is shameful that you should assign to our nation the impediments and handicaps of your own. We have our own weaknesses and our faults; they are not the weaknesses and faults that others have, and assigning these to us to score points is really pathetic and degrading.

B. Try, for a moment, if you can put aside your chosen role as leader of the storm troops of the Internet, to visualise a robust and active polity, where a party which is discredited, which does not enjoy the support of any of the country's minorities taken as entire entities, cannot do much but frustrate the earnest and sincere efforts of others.

C. What they are trying to do is well apparent to Indian opinion, and Indian opinion is committed to stopping them in their tracks and reversing the damage that they have done. It was not the CIA, not Mossad, not any alien organisation that got through to identify the authors of these murders and acts of terror, but our own agencies, working to their professional discipline, unafraid to lay their hands on the shoulders of the perpetrators, howsoever well-connected and influential, and operating with the active encouragement and enthusiastic support of the Supreme Court.

D. That the Indian state did this? Are you unaware of what is going on? and of the noose tightening slowly but gradually around the perpetrators? "The mills of God grind slow, but they grind exceeding small". For your ready reference: Teesta Setalvad is not a Muslim. Nor are 90% of her active support structure. It is not a Muslim set of officers who have unravelled the truth, it is a set of Indians who have set aside their other affiliations, in deference to their oaths of service, and have dug deep down. An example, frankly, that we are proud of.



Surely.. you dont imply that India's hands are clean?

On my word as an officer and a gentleman, to the best of my knowledge, I do.

Maybe not false flag operations.. but given the security threat our military poses.. would it not befall the Indian security agencies to counter this threat by every possible means.. is it not their mandate to protect the Indian citizen from whatever they classify as a threat??

Yes, it is.

If it is advantageous to India to create a situation where it can justify arms purchases..for greater security.. will that not happen?

By killing Indian citizens, NO.

infact.. leave the arms purchase aside.. if buying a certain commodity at a loss and creating a market shortage for everyone later benefits India's economy in a big way.. would the GoI not take the initiative?.

It well might, although I am not aware of it having happened - ever. I wish that they were clever enough to do so. That does not seem to be so.

I agree the water is more murky this side of the river.. but the "saint" you paint the intelligence services of India as is a little over the top.

If you wish.

How do you think I can convince you, if you believe, knowing the facts - published by a dozen foreign sources, none of them Indian or India-influenced - that it is necessary to assume that the same situation must exist on this side? If you assume, to use your own words, that since the water is murky on your side of the river, our side must be similarly turbid? What if it is not?

Would I be wrong in stating that that is the fear that you harbour, that it is in fact different?

 

[SQ8]

If you wish.

How do you think I can convince you, if you believe, knowing the facts - published by a dozen foreign sources, none of them Indian or India-influenced - that it is necessary to assume that the same situation must exist on this side? If you assume, to use your own words, that since the water is murky on your side of the river, our side must be similarly turbid? What if it is not?

Would I be wrong in stating that that is the fear that you harbour, that it is in fact different?

After going through the points you have highlighted again..
Ill admit to having used previous posts to take them into context..

When you implied the congress as thugs..and the fact that they sit in the lawmakers benches.. does that not undermine the entire purpose of it?.. Thugs.. no matter where they sit.. negate the effectiveness of that office.

I did not know under what definition you consider false flag ops..I was referring to any and all circumstances where any state or extra-state apparatus is used to carry out an operation disguised as the personnel of another nation.

Now..for me harboring a fear.. I have already made it known of my Indian connection and visits.. so while I may not live in India. I get the wind of it from time to time.. you are aware of this.. so what unknown do I have to fear?
But by stating that.. you are implying that there is complete accountability in India for everyone.. if there is.. why are the thugs you pointed out still in office.. or roaming the streets?

With regards to Pakistani's being killed deliberately.. then what is unintended action..one does not have to announce killing Pakistani's to kill them.. or deliberately target Pakistani citizens to still bring them harm.
Who holds the civil authority that is supervising the military ops or the like accountable. especially if the op can be damaging to the state if revealed?

I agree on all counts that we have been complacent.. and would surely invite death if we try to hold our military accountable.. not just for military ops..and that the military does much to influence the state matters..and interferes on every level.

yet.. was it sanctioned for the IA chief to make the statement well after 26/11 about invading Rawalpindi.. or taking on two fronts?
By the civilian govt..if it was.. what guarantees do you have that the very same civilian govt cannot sanction covert ops.
Is the Supreme court of India made aware of every move R&AW makes to take suo moto notice?

It seems too good to digest for me.. that India is the only country where no evil is possible.. or any evil is caught.
If so..you have managed to outdo every western state in this regard.

I am not singling out the Indian Military.. but any agency..
since they are under political rule.. are the policy makers sitting above these apparatuses pacifists?

 

[Joe Shearer]

If you take the trouble of going through my submissions - a very small number of posts are involved, since I have no desire to write one-liners to add to my public rating - you may find evidence that either they are composed of information known to me through thorough and academic study of a subject, or through personal experience. I have seldom, if ever, entered a thread to say that if A is true, then B might well be true. This is to reiterate that I have shared what little I know personally, or have been told in friendly confidences shared. If you were to challenge me to guarantee that nothing beyond what I know well for the period defined happened, I may not be able to answer. It can never be ruled out that someone, somewhere, did something desperately dirty and underhand, and our system did not pick it up.

On the other hand, from what I know, I am genuinely convinced that my state has acted decently and properly on the whole. There have been dreadful aberrations, but none of them affect Indo-Pakistani relations. This on my word.

Secondly, sometimes, there are situations where it might seem that I am condescending or am putting down someone. This is not my intention. If that impression comes through, please remove it from your mind. Or, if you prefer, draw my attention to it, and I shall undertake to satisfy you fully that no such intention was harboured.

After going through the points you have highlighted again..
Ill admit to having used previous posts to take them into context..

When you implied the congress as thugs..and the fact that they sit in the lawmakers benches.. does that not undermine the entire purpose of it?.. Thugs.. no matter where they sit.. negate the effectiveness of that office.

Yes, it does. But it ultimately doesn't matter, because we have evolved checks and balances over the years.

I understand what you are saying. What I wanted to say, and was afraid to say for fear of being thought condescending, is that you can't know how these crooks are balanced. Partly by the bureaucracy, in the early years of our democracy. When they weakened, the political parties still retained some residual morality. We were taken through a difficult period by that. Finally, the institutions, some of whom I named earlier, started taking over. Today, the situation is that nobody can act unilaterally; the system has become so interconnected that a tremor in one part of the web alerts others far away.

So nobody - not the Congress, not the BJP, not the DMK - can get away with anything for too long. You would be less than fair to play with absolutes; there are no absolutes in this situation, only relatives (pun unintended, sadly). People may not get caught immediately; they get caught later. But they get caught. And then the merciless media circus takes over.

I did not know under what definition you consider false flag ops..I was referring to any and all circumstances where any state or extra-state apparatus is used to carry out an operation disguised as the personnel of another nation.

No, I wouldn't agree, for the simple reason that this embraces the lunatic fringe from our Muslim-hating party.

At least one of the two dominant parties in India has a well-structured, well-organised apparatus for causing mischief. Recently, the trend has come in of detaching elements and allowing them to operate on their own, so that they may be repudiated if needed. Apparently there is no Hindi equivalent of plausible deniability.

BUT apart from this aberration, there is no equivalent extra-state effort at all, other than terrorist and guerrilla organisations. Which, presumably, is not what you are referring to.

Please note then, I am very careful to say that there is no known example of any operation being carried out by government of India, or by indirect arms of the GOI, or by hired entities sponsored by the GOI. This I can speak for, and shall. I cannot guarantee that the Sangh Parivar has not thoughts in that direction, or that what we -WE - have detected and are investigating was not an example of extra-state entities carrying out an operation purporting to be by the co-religionists/ associates/ allies of another nation.

Now..for me harboring a fear.. I have already made it known of my Indian connection and visits.. so while I may not live in India. I get the wind of it from time to time.. you are aware of this.. so what unknown do I have to fear?

I am more than disturbed by that statement. It should be clear from the context, transparently so, that I was referring to the collective, not to you.

But by stating that.. you are implying that there is complete accountability in India for everyone.. if there is.. why are the thugs you pointed out still in office.. or roaming the streets?

Again, and again, and again, I have stated that people are ultimately brought to book, and that they get away with things for unconscionably long periods of time.

Tell me if I have implied, far less stated anywhere that retribution is swift and soon.

Instead of pointing to the thugs still in office, or roaming the streets, look at the processes directed at them, and their inexorable progress. How I wish we could have swifter action! But on the other hand, we do have action, glacial in pace though it may be. And that is what I take pride in, just as the delays are heart-breaking.

With regards to Pakistani's being killed deliberately.. then what is unintended action..one does not have to announce killing Pakistani's to kill them.. or deliberately target Pakistani citizens to still bring them harm.

I explained that, I thought. Only serving soldiers in the line of fire have been harmed.

Look at our example, look at our neighbours. Of all the thousands of Pakistani fishermen caught fishing on the wrong side of the sea boundaries, hardly a single one has suffered worse than a spell of imprisonment. Nor, in fairness to you, have Indian fishermen. On our Southern frontier, however, 2,000 fishermen have been killed by gunfire over the years.

We don't shoot civilians, not harmless ones. The gory episodes printed from time to time by our Bangladeshi friends are almost always due to touts who help Bangladeshis cross over taking their commissions, and then vanishing, leaving the hapless people to try and make their own way themselves. Usually they are spotted and, sometimes, shot. There are also cattle-raids. Cattle are smuggled across on an industrial scale, but from time to time, greed takes over and local farmers' draught and dairy animals are stolen. Guns are fired then, and sometimes result in casualties.

To get back to your point, there is and has been no effort to harm Pakistani civilians.

Who holds the civil authority that is supervising the military ops or the like accountable. especially if the op can be damaging to the state if revealed?

I know that it will be difficult to convince you about this, but nothing remains a secret for very long. For instance, talking of top secret, everyone in the forces knows who the Cabinet Minister was in 71, reporting events to Kissinger and Nixon. Everyone knew at the time of the Nanda Devi expedition what was going on. There is nothing that happened that is not known. If it is not a policeman talking to his revered superior, it is a college mate talking to his journo friend late in the evening, and trying to impress them with his concealed importance and power, and one way or the other, the grapevine knows everything - everything. The way to get my Raksha Mantri's daily itinerary was to ask my friend the resident representative of the firm that introduced Helmet Mounted Displays to us. Why one of our finest CinCs was transferred abruptly, and what lawnmowers had to do with it - why me, ask your guys in your embassy in Delhi, they can tell you!

Getting specific about the civilian authority that supervises military ops., are you sure you know what I am talking about? If you knew the set-up, and how secret missions are proposed and sanctioned, you would not have asked this question. Suffice it to say that more than three indepedent authorities know about these things, mainly because the pols don't want a repeat of the horrid discovery someone made in the early 70s, that the IB had dossiers on every pol! After this, there was a tremendous drive to split responsibility and to ensure that no one had a monopoly of information or of decision making.

In one sentence, the babus watch each other, and there are three sets. I can't go further.

I agree on all counts that we have been complacent.. and would surely invite death if we try to hold our military accountable.. not just for military ops..and that the military does much to influence the state matters..and interferes on every level.

My point was the utter contrast on our side.

yet.. was it sanctioned for the IA chief to make the statement well after 26/11 about invading Rawalpindi.. or taking on two fronts?

It had been discussed. I am not sure that anybody dreamt that he would go public with it. But it was a fact, and is today a fact, that the Army and the Air Force have told the pols that they have at their own initiative re-defined the ten year rule.

Every year, the Chiefs are told what hazards they may expect in the next ten years, from the political point of view. Recently, it was suggested that they themselves had come to certain conclusions, those conclusions were shared, there were discussions, and certain modified conclusions stand forth before us. It is clear that we are facing a dichotomous regime to the North, and an out of control one to our West. Defences are being re-ordered, and thought through from the ground up. Nobody expected that this would be shared with the journalists. But there are excuses. None of our military men are trained to deal with journalists, quite contrary to the practice in the US and in Pakistan. This is a serious lacuna, and I have often thought of offering to coach these very nice blokes on how to say a zillion things and land up having said nothing indiscreet. It is a learned craft.

By the civilian govt..if it was.. what guarantees do you have that the very same civilian govt cannot sanction covert ops.

I have none, except the climate and the state of mind of our pols. Somebody called Indian policy one of strategic restraint. Look at it over the centuries. It is not one that has become current recently. It was always part of the package.

Try to understand this. Indians can fight, but contrary to what you read on the Internet, very few Indians want a war. It is only when attacked that there is an uproar. I am persuaded that you may not be wanting for examples, and shall refrain from publishing inflammable stuff.

Is the Supreme court of India made aware of every move R&AW makes to take suo moto notice?

Good Heavens, no!

Did I make such a puerile statement? It is just that sooner or later, the bodies come to light.

It seems too good to digest for me.. that India is the only country where no evil is possible.. or any evil is caught.

Nothing of the sort. It is just that most Indians would like to see evil punished, and evil caught in the first place so that it may be punished, and unlike some others who are unfortunate - the Egyptians, for instance, the Afghans, for another - we are relatively free to scream our heads off. It looks undignified, I cannot imagine you good people doing it, but we hate our own people taking us for a ride, and if it happens, and gets found out, there's noise.

If so..you have managed to outdo every western state in this regard.

No, we are far behind every other democracy. It is shameful; we have lots to do.

I am not singling out the Indian Military.. but any agency..since they are under political rule.. are the policy makers sitting above these apparatuses pacifists?

There are hawks in the BJP, hawks that lay eggs every evening, which get made into omelettes the next morning, and that is the sum total. There are no hawks in the Congress, and none elsewhere other than the lunatics in the Shiv Sena, occasionally bitterly inflamed Tamils looking at bodies of fishermen and raped women in Jaffna, and Assamese who are in a state of frenzy when they think of how much land has been taken up over the years by illegal immigrants. Apart from this, I can't think of anybody who wants war.

I have answered as honestly as I can. Believe what you choose to believe, discard what you choose to discard, but be sure that if you watch India's actions over some time, you will see every word of what I have written come true, or be proven true.

 

[Rig Vedic]

Actually this Aseemananda only said that some person who is already dead has once boasted about doing Samjhauta, but that he (Aseemananda) did not believe him.

So, it is not a confession, but merely hearsay, which may or may not have been coerced.

Anyway, as regards Samjhauta, not only has the UN indicted Arif Qasmani of the LeT, but also the testimony of the wife of Daoud Giliani alias David Headley also points in the same direction.

To summarize, this is nothing but Congress politics, similar to Digvijay Singh giving a speech at the function for launching the ridiculous book "26/11 - An RSS Conspiracy", authored by some lunatic.

 

[SQ8]

@Joe..
If all on both sides would be ready to give such clarifications..and answer with dignity.... this forum would be a better place.
Thank you for answering all of that..

Now.. with regards to the crying foul.. well.. I would give some credit to the media power in India.. that it has played(repeat..played as in past tense).. a part in exposing the problems in the setup..
Would it not be entirely impossible that if the politicians involved in the Bofors fiasco were not exposed.. they might have.. mIgHt have.. managed to slip away by wheeling an dealing.

Another example.. less serious comparatively..
Would Mr Gulshan Grover's antics with budding actresses still be exposed if not for the sting operation by the press??

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe..
If all on both sides would be ready to give such clarifications..and answer with dignity.... this forum would be a better place.
Thank you for answering all of that..

I am sincerely grateful to you and our other Pakistani friends for an opportunity to state our case, and not to be jumped on with hob-nailed boots and finished off.

Please believe me - what was uppermost in my mind in the last two or three posts was that everything I said, and everything I did not as well, and the manner with which I replied would form an impression of India and Indians in your minds.

For the second part, if I - and many, if not most other Indians on this forum - were not a genuine friend of Pakistan, and Pakistanis, we would neither be here nor trying to engage your attention and seek your understanding - without compromising our dignity, but with humility.

Now.. with regards to the crying foul.. well.. I would give some credit to the media power in India.. that it has played(repeat..played as in past tense).. a part in exposing the problems in the setup..

I agree, in part. it is just that one or two channels - English channels - have gone off the rails. The Times channel and Gasbag Goswami in particular. Actually, there has been a sharp deterioration in the morality of the press in the last ten years or so; power has gone to their heads.

One must accept their utility and see this arrogance, and sometimes, this corruption through excessive access to power, as a necessary evil.

Would it not be entirely impossible that if the politicians involved in the Bofors fiasco were not exposed.. they might have.. mIgHt have.. managed to slip away by wheeling an dealing.

All too true, regrettably.

Another example.. less serious comparatively..

Would Mr Gulshan Grover's antics with budding actresses still be exposed if not for the sting operation by the press??

That is very true, and more power to their elbow. They - the media - have their uses after all.

I know you meant it in a lighter vein, but this sort of squalid behaviour makes me cringe when it comes to light. It points to a decay in morality which drives me to suicidal despair.

I would like to say, in partial amelioration, and a partial, very weak defence, that as far as I know, I was the only CEO to implement the Visakha judgement of the Supreme Court in organisations that i managed over the last twelve years. I don't know of a single other one. Most of my peers never even knew about it.

Whatever I finally end up doing, this is the single achievement from which I get the greatest happiness.

 

[roadrunner]

Joe, your responses are always a pleasure to read, even if coated with Indian sugar.

@roadrunner

In the past, your posts - those that come to mind readily, and some come to mind as very pleasant memories indeed, because of the erudition and research that had gone into them - were those of a committed, but fair, observer. It is sad that you seem to have retained only your commitment in writing the present posts.

If by false flag, you imply agents of the Indian state pretending to be agents of another state, that is a deplorable statement, and it is regrettable that you should stoop to such a low level. There is not a shred of evidence to prove that.

If Lt. Col. Purohit's involvement is what inspired this slander, then such inspiration is in disregard of the complete abhorrence that his disloyalty to his oath and his treachery to the nation inspired within his service and among military men throughout the Indian armed forces. I have not said 'deliberate' disregard, but it was a toss-up.

So you admit Lt Col Purohit is an example of the slander you accuse me of?

Then how can it be slander? You have acknowledged that your own agents have been involved in creating false flags.

Can you not believe that where there's one Purohit, there might be a lot more?

The only reason you've been told that everyone in the Indian intelligence is in abhorrence of Purohit's actions, is because he got caught. if he did not get caught, do you think Purohit's handlers would be in abhorrence of blowing up trains and blaming it on Pakistanis/Muslims?

You must be aware, given your previous displays of knowledge and general information, that the Indian Army does not act without the authority and direction of civilian policy makers, does not command its own secret intelligence army, and does not mount covert operations anywhere in the world, other than unit level intelligence-gathering in several specific disturbed areas.

It is sad that you have resorted to slandering a proud fighting force, and it is unexpected coming from you.

What do you mean "does not command its own secret intelligence army"?

All nations have intelligence services and secret agents.

If Pakistanis were killed deliberately, Indians would certainly do something about it.

Can you honestly say this is true?

The Samjhuta Express blast, 59 Pakistanis killed. Purohit responsible. What did Indians do? Make Purohit the scapegoat for all these blasts, instead of looking at the network behind them.

You are to be congratulated on anticipating what hot-headed and intemperate Indians, many of them fan-boys, will be tempted to say, that these acts can only originate from a revanchist, frustrated party that lives for the day when it can take revenge for its defeats, defeats that a nation of super-human beings, the chosen, should never have suffered, indeed, could never have suffered except for the treachery of other humans - such treacherous humans ranging from the enemy, to the ally who was not an ally, to the all-weather friend whose barometer was out of order, to finally the leadership itself, drunk and sunk in the pleasures of the flesh, corrupt and unable to lead the nation to its deserved victory.

As long as you have this fixed idea, and continue to wage war, sometimes openly, more often through hired assassins and through treachery, war not against soldiers but against innocent men, women and children, however shrill your voices on occasions like this, you lack credibility. Even to your own. Your own magazines and blogs are clear evidence what you stand for today, as the Terror Central of the world.

You are so quick to claim, in broad generic and wholly misleading terms, that "It is to generate tensions between Indians and Pakistanis so that peace processes can be derailed, or just to keep the two squabbling", in a way that makes it seem that the Indian state is the party responsible for this, that it takes away attention from the precisely described behaviour of the Pakistani state, under the command and control of the Pakistani military, or to be accurate, the Pakistani Army.

If anybody in India shares these sentiments, it is a political party, an important and powerful political party, which enjoys the support of a large number of Indians not for its hideous parochialism and hatred of a particular religion, but because of the gross corruption and financial greed of the other option.

False flags are carried out for the benefit of one state or the other. By blowing up trains and saying, after a day or two, Muslim terrorist group x did this, what would Pakistan have to gain? India would have a lot to gain by saying this. So why wouldnt the Indian State be responsible for this? The intelligence services work for the Indian State.

Try, for a moment, if you can put aside your chosen role as leader of the storm troops of the Internet, to visualise a robust and active polity, where a party which is discredited, which does not enjoy the support of any of the country's minorities taken as entire entities, cannot do much but frustrate the earnest and sincere efforts of others.

What they are trying to do is well apparent to Indian opinion, and Indian opinion is committed to stopping them in their tracks and reversing the damage that they have done. It was not the CIA, not Mossad, not any alien organisation that got through to identify the authors of these murders and acts of terror, but our own agencies, working to their professional discipline, unafraid to lay their hands on the shoulders of the perpetrators, howsoever well-connected and influential, and operating with the active encouragement and enthusiastic support of the Supreme Court.

Your troubled thoughts regarding our difficulties are solicitous and kind, but as some of you may have noticed, we are acting on our own, whenever, wherever there is an opportunity to act.



What is your point? That the Indian state did this? Are you unaware of what is going on? and of the noose tightening slowly but gradually around the perpetrators? "The mills of God grind slow, but they grind exceeding small". For your ready reference: Teesta Setalvad is not a Muslim. Nor are 90% of her active support structure. It is not a Muslim set of officers who have unravelled the truth, it is a set of Indians who have set aside their other affiliations, in deference to their oaths of service, and have dug deep down. An example, frankly, that we are proud of.

This one sentence is sufficient to ensure that you are never, ever mistaken to be fair or as worthy of respect ever again.

You're seeking to minimize the damage. Instead of coming clean and saying Purohits do exist.

The problem here is that if you want to derail peace processes, which India does want to do, you need the Purohits. They exist because of the political situation.

Pakistan does not need to derail the peace process. Pakistan's best interest is to see the UN resolutions implemented.