High ranking serving military officer demands COAS General Bajwa's resignation: Major Adil (retired)

[SaadH]

Those were done by Pakistan Atmy as per the then dg ispr shaukat sultan. Only outsourced to a US drone.. until things changed and the allies backstabbed

Does that also include the strike on the Chenagai Madressa where 80 kids all under 16 were killed in cold blood or was that all Pak Army and Mushy's American masters doing with no inputs from the traitors???

Chenagai airstrike - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[blain2]

Unity of command? President is suppose to be head of the army, will they obey him if he kicks Bajwa out? Or that doesn’t count? Armed forces have an oath to protect the country which they continue to violate by overthrowing civilian governments, interfering in politics. All that part of that discipline?

The wrong narrative that have been fed to every Pakistani how the holly military is the last resort holding Pakistan together. How are they the last resort? They have caused the mess we are in by continuously interfering, creating political parties to blackmail others. All the murders MQM committed are on Musharraf and military, all the innocent lives lost.

Pakistan is what made this army, this army didn’t make Pakistan. People of Pakistan sacrificed their lives, relationships and wealth to make this country by migrating to the new land. From the beginning of civilian government were corrupt so was the military.

Chain of command means nothing if at the head is a corrupt individual who created all the mess to protect his a**. How is this chain of command different than what PML N and PPP have done? They have installed corrupt individuals in key positions to protect their own interest. If an individual is more loyal to the head of an institution than the country it was created to protect/serve, it becomes a failed institution.

How did USA survive what trump did? The institutions didn’t buckle, they held to their principal.

I have been around this circus many times. The CoAS has not done *anything* unconstitutional. So sticking to facts would lead one to the conclusion that there is no need to fire the CoAS who would retire in Oct. in any case.

There was no *overthrowing* of the civilian government. Not a single, unlawful thing transpired in the process that saw the PTI government being sent packing. Had something unlawful happened, the Supreme Court would have ruled on it. PTI got outplayed via the VoNC and the army stopped influencing the crutches that were holding the PTI government in place. Retaining parliamentary majority is not Bajwa's job, it is something that IK and party failed at themselves.

Naray bazi i.e. "Pakistan is what made this army, this army didn’t make Pakistan. People of Pakistan sacrificed their lives, relationships and wealth to make this country etc. etc.", aside, reality is quite different. I know the fairy tales spun up homeside don't reflect this and specially in the minds of people like IRK etc. but the reality of Pakistan is that the *establishment* (military, judiciary, bureaucracy) supports and runs this country so it works otherwise the democratic dispensation is a shit-show out of hell. Whether it is PTI or others, they have all failed.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I do want to register that there is a contrarian view from the one espoused by the PTI fan club here.

 

[VCheng]

I have been around this circus many times. The CoAS has not done *anything* unconstitutional. So sticking to facts would lead one to the conclusion that there is no need to fire the CoAS who would retire in Oct. in any case.

There is no *overthrowing* of the civilian government. Not a single, unlawful thing transpired in the process that saw the PTI government being sent packing. Had something unlawful happened, the Supreme Court would have ruled on it. PTI got outplayed via the VoNC and the army stopped influencing the crutches that were holding the PTI government in place. Retaining parliamentary majority is not Bajwa's job, it is something that IK and party failed at themselves.

Naray bazi i.e. "Pakistan is what made this army, this army didn’t make Pakistan. People of Pakistan sacrificed their lives, relationships and wealth to make this country etc. etc.", aside, reality is quite different. I know the fairy tales spun up homeside don't reflect this and specially in the minds of people like IRK etc. but the reality of Pakistan is that the *establishment* (military, judiciary, bureaucracy) supports and runs this country so it works otherwise the democratic dispensation is a shit-show out of hell. Whether it is PTI or others, they have all failed.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I do want to register that there is a contrarian view from the one espoused by the PTI fan club here.

Your view above is not a contrarian view at all, but factual.

My problem is that a certain senior member of the management deletes my posts and imposes bans if I say anything along the lines of what you have said above, while other members of the management condone such behavior with their silence on such persecution despite a formal request in the GHQ for a review of said actions. As I say, PDF is indeed a microcosmic representation of the actual country.

My criticisms of the military are well known here on PDF for over a decade, but facts are facts. The Army, for all its faults, is the only unifying force in the country that remains effective, all other institutions having been destroyed by design.

 

[PakCan]

I have been around this circus many times. The CoAS has not done *anything* unconstitutional. So sticking to facts would lead one to the conclusion that there is no need to fire the CoAS who would retire in Oct. in any case.

There was no *overthrowing* of the civilian government. Not a single, unlawful thing transpired in the process that saw the PTI government being sent packing. Had something unlawful happened, the Supreme Court would have ruled on it. PTI got outplayed via the VoNC and the army stopped influencing the crutches that were holding the PTI government in place. Retaining parliamentary majority is not Bajwa's job, it is something that IK and party failed at themselves.

Naray bazi i.e. "Pakistan is what made this army, this army didn’t make Pakistan. People of Pakistan sacrificed their lives, relationships and wealth to make this country etc. etc.", aside, reality is quite different. I know the fairy tales spun up homeside don't reflect this and specially in the minds of people like IRK etc. but the reality of Pakistan is that the *establishment* (military, judiciary, bureaucracy) supports and runs this country so it works otherwise the democratic dispensation is a shit-show out of hell. Whether it is PTI or others, they have all failed.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I do want to register that there is a contrarian view from the one espoused by the PTI fan club here.

Not done anything unconstitutional? If you really believe the fairy tales being told by Establishment than no point discussing anything further. The way you talk about how Supreme Court could have intervened, shows you live in a fantasy world where Pakistani institutions are independent and corruption free. Establishment runs this country? Last 70 years is proof that the way it is being run is not working . Corruption rampant everywhere and you say it’s working. No rule of law and you say it’s working? Democratic system was never allowed to develop. It needs time to mature , but establishment never allowed it.

You don’t reach the bottom by a snap of a finger. Army created this mess over 70 years, we know how influential army is. You are telling me Bajwa is not involved in any corruption? You are gonna tell me you rather have corrupt leaders at the top than someone new who is trying to bring change?

Trying being loyal to Pakistan and leave the institution worship on the side.

 

[blain2]

Not done anything unconstitutional? If you really believe the fairy tales being told by Establishment than no point discussing anything further. The way you talk about how Supreme Court could have intervened, shows you live in a fantasy world where Pakistani institutions are independent and corruption free. Establishment runs this country? Last 70 years is proof that the way it is being run is not working . Corruption rampant everywhere and you say it’s working. No rule of law and you say it’s working? Democratic system was never allowed to develop. It needs time to mature , but establishment never allowed it.

You don’t reach the bottom by a snap of a finger. Army created this mess over 70 years, we know how influential army is. You are telling me Bajwa is not involved in any corruption? You are gonna tell me you rather have corrupt leaders at the top than someone new who is trying to bring change?

Trying being loyal to Pakistan and leave the institution worship on the side.

I can read, comprehend and am old enough (5+ decades) to not fall for such silly notions as "believing" fairy tales.

The corruption that you and many other PTI supporters so easily "externalize" comes from within you and I. It is your own brethren, your own institutions, and your own people that engage in it. Just like you cannot cut off an appendage from your body (the so called "revolution" path"), corruption too will take time to wean off. So enough of these silly "Custer's last stand" type of proclamations by the PTI supporters that it is now or never. Pakistan will chug along and will evolve over time. The establishment is here to stay and to keep Pakistan chugging along.

As such it is not a 3 year old PTI led enterprise that runs or owns Pakistan which most of you have bought into. Pakistan existed before PTI and Pakistan will exist long after the PTI phenomena is gone and the reason for that is yet again the establishment. Pakistan is the establishment and the establishment is Pakistan! I believe in it and firmly know that it keeps Pakistan's interests supreme (because they don't give two hoots about the next elections and winning seats) regardless of which political party is at the helm

Let's not go back to the original sin because for each accusation you lay on the military, I can turn around and put two more on the so called civilian/democratic leaders and I won't even spare Imran Khan while I am at it. Nothing personal against you, but please spare me this sorry sob story about "Democratic system was never allowed to develop". Tired of hearing this weak, misplaced opinion.

"Trying being loyal to Pakistan and leave the institution worship on the side."

Quite ironic coming from IK/PTI supporters I must say. If there is any worshiping being done, it is of IK by his supporters and he is basking in it.

Also I am loyal to Pakistan regardless of which party is in power so let's not question my affinity to Pakistan. I believe in the institutions, the technocrats, the bureaucrats that run Pakistan. The ones who pay taxes, regardless of how measly their salaries are. As such, the hell with the politicians, the lot of them!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Bajwa is a fucking rat. I am starting to hate this impotent army. If ur chief is a traitor and is damaging the country instead of acting against him they still obeying the orders **** the chain of command there’s is something you call your inner conscious which tells you that what you are doing is wrong to the people of this country how much more you want them to suffer by normalising corruption what about your moral value system of this country . You are destroying the country beyond imagination. You think these sharif and zardari will stop doing corruption after this NRO then do it by all means and we all know they will keep doing it

Not only they should ask for resignation but there should be an inquiry on all these corrupt practices that he was indulge into along with DG ISI for being a chief conspirator for destroying country’s economy and toppling an elected Gov government

Hear hear!

I, for one, completely support the armed forces and hope for the unity of command to sustain itself, as it always has and in these times as well, inshallah.

In essence, we have a corrupt Army leadership that owns and runs a country into the ground, destroying civilian institutions and manipulating governments and other institutions to maintain their hold on power.

Most other civilized, normal countries, including our nemesis to the East, are countries that own Armies, and therefore are stable and have surpassed us in education, trade, research and governance.

What’s next? Praising the Myanmar military Junta, because that’s essentially what the Pakistan Army has become under Bajwa.

 

[blain2]

I personally expect and support the CoAS to complete his tenure and retire in Oct. regardless of all the noise and protestations from the self-righteous brigade.

More importantly, given the alternates, I trust the establishment over the pols any day, any time and twice over on Sundays.

 

[PakCan]

I personally expect and support the CoAS to complete his tenure and retire in Oct. regardless of all the noise and protestations from the self-righteous brigade.

More importantly, given the alternates, I trust the establishment over the pols any day, any time and twice over on Sundays.

Basically you are saying a corrupt Bajwa/ Generals are better than what Khan might try to do. You are not even willing to give Khan a chance. What’s the worst that will happen? We might remain in the mess, at least we would have tried something different. Pakistan in last 3 years improved despite the difficulties facing the country.

You my friend are loyal to the establishment. I am not a khan fan boy but I want a new face. I want khan to be given a fair chance. I want institutions to be held responsible along with all the politicians who got us to this point. When you make anyone untouchable their head gets filled with false pride.

Nothing ahead of Pakistan , not even generals.

 

[blain2]

Basically you are saying a corrupt Bajwa/ Generals are better than what Khan might try to do. You are not even willing to give Khan a chance. What’s the worst that will happen? We might remain in the mess, at least we would have tried something different. Pakistan in last 3 years improved despite the difficulties facing the country.

You my friend are loyal to the establishment. I am not a khan fan boy but I want a new face. I want khan to be given a fair chance. I want institutions to be held responsible along with all the politicians who got us to this point. When you make anyone untouchable their head gets filled with false pride.

Nothing ahead of Pakistan , not even generals.

I have peeled this onion back many times over.

What sudden "corruption" are you taking about now? The one where the army decided to remove the crutches from PTI and IK and let them try to float on their own? I was never a PTI member but I supported IK over these other clowns. But I also realized that IK on his own was not clever enough nor able enough to manage running Pakistan. The mismanagement on the foreign policy, Punjab, the complete collapse of the economy immediately after his government left are clear, glaring indications of where and how his missteps were hurting Pakistan. Just saying that one is honest does not mean that they can run Pakistan competently. IK was clearly out of his depth. I am not saying SS et-al know what they are doing. But in all of this, I trust the establishment to safeguard Pakistan's interests. They have done what they do, there is already mending going on. The recent trips to China, KSA, reach out to the US are all part of the clean up that is being done. The generals are you, me and I. Not some implants placed by the Americans or Nawaz Sharif himself so why this sudden umbrage and accusations of "corruption" against them now?

IK and PTI have done a significant amount of damage to Pakistan's FP and even the economy. What we are seeing now is the classic case of establishment doing damage control because the f***-up by the IK/PTI enterprise will require some years of cleaning up. I had the opportunity to do some travel and engage with quite a few people in the know outside of Pakistan in the past couple of months and it has been pretty mind-boggling to get an appreciation of what Pakistan is faced with currently from FATF to economy to relations with the China, our Arab brethren (many of whom are simply pissed off with IK) and the US. When I hear this talk of "the SS government is taking Pakistan away from Chinese camp", it makes me laugh because the reality on the ground is quite different.

This last part, many more here won't like me stating it, but I have to.
PTI supporters have a very skewed view, manufactured and stuffed down their noses and throats by the PTI SM machinery. They don't even get a chance to take a step back from the fray and realize what all has happened on PTI government's watch. They are kept busy in this us vs. them barrage of propaganda where every other Pakistani who does not side with them is a traitor, thief, corrupt chor as if they have direct wahi/ilham from Allah on the rest of Pakistan. It is the same God-complex of IK now being lived out vicariously through his PTI supporters and multiplied. Just like IK claims "I know the west better than everyone else" when in reality he has no clue, its the same self-righteous nonsense that blocks any objective critique of the situation on hand.

What is needed is a dispassionate analysis and of all the entities, I have the most confidence in the establishment to do so. They look at things factually and make adjustments. Our emotionally charged political landscape is incapable of doing so and currently is completely paralyzed in the ongoing tussle between IK and others.

Thus my friend I trust the establishment more than any other entity in Pakistan.

 

[PakCan]

I have peeled this onion back many times over.

What sudden "corruption" are you taking about now? The one where the army decided to remove the crutches from PTI and IK and let them try to float on their own? I was never a PTI member but I supported IK over these other clowns. But I also realized that IK on his own was not clever enough nor able enough to manage running Pakistan. The mismanagement on the foreign policy, Punjab, the complete collapse of the economy immediately after his government left are clear, glaring indications of where and how his missteps were hurting Pakistan. Just saying that one is honest does not mean that they can run Pakistan competently. IK was clearly out of his depth. I am not saying SS et-al know what they are doing. But in all of this, I trust the establishment to safeguard Pakistan's interests. They have done what they do, there is already mending going on. The recent trips to China, KSA, reach out to the US are all part of the clean up that is being done. The generals are you, me and I. Not some implants placed by the Americans or Nawaz Sharif himself so why this sudden umbrage and accusations of "corruption" against them now?

IK and PTI have done a significant amount of damage to Pakistan's FP and even the economy. What we are seeing now is the classic case of establishment doing damage control because the f***-up by the IK/PTI enterprise will require some years of cleaning up. I had the opportunity to do some travel and engage with quite a few people in the know outside of Pakistan in the past couple of months and it has been pretty mind-boggling to get an appreciation of what Pakistan is faced with currently from FATF to economy to relations with the China, our Arab brethren (many of whom are simply pissed off with IK) and the US. When I hear this talk of "the SS government is taking Pakistan away from Chinese camp", it makes me laugh because the reality on the ground is quite different.

This last part, many more here won't like me stating it, but I have to.
PTI supporters have a very skewed view, manufactured and stuffed down their noses and throats by the PTI SM machinery. They don't even get a chance to take a step back from the fray and realize what all has happened on PTI government's watch. They are kept busy in this us vs. them barrage of propaganda where every other Pakistani who does not side with them is a traitor, thief, corrupt chor as if they have direct wahi/ilham from Allah on the rest of Pakistan. It is the same God-complex of IK now being lived out vicariously through his PTI supporters and multiplied. Just like IK claims "I know the west better than everyone else" when in reality he has no clue, its the same self-righteous nonsense that blocks any objective critique of the situation on hand.

What is needed is a dispassionate analysis and of all the entities, I have the most confidence in the establishment to do so. They look at things factually and make adjustments. Our emotionally charged political landscape is incapable of doing so and currently is completely paralyzed in the ongoing tussle between IK and others.

Thus my friend I trust the establishment more than any other entity in Pakistan.

Which collapse are you referring too? Every economic indicator showed economy was doing great under Khan. Punjab mismanagement would have caused khan future vote, why did establishment save him from that? Your analysis refuses to accept or take into account the mismanagement done by establishment.

I am not here to change your mind nor I support Khan blindly but I will take Khan over PDM and establishment. If establishment was sincere to Pakistan, mushraf would have strengthen institutions.

Let the people of Pakistan decide who they want to lead them.

 

[Reichmarshal]

The debate has reached page 14 but all the posters from all the sides seem to be missing on major factor in this whole fiasco n ie

Every time the establishment has done regime change starting from sikander mirza to the present. They have always had the opinion of the people of Pakistan on their side. So every time a sitting govt. Is removed people come out distribute sweets, pat each other on their backs n go home n life goes on. This happened again n again n again.
Even when they removed zab, they first made sure to break zab popularity, first with the mrd movement that bought all the political forces under its banner n then they were able to imprision bhutto n hence bhutto was not able to mobilize the public support that he needed n finally was hanged. Some die hard supporters did come out to protest but not in the nos. To make a difference. While the rest celebrated.
They tried the same formula here against IK as they launched their whole plan when IK popularity was veining, but this time two things went against the script which the powers that be did not take into acc. 1. IK fought back with the support of the masses 2. The eco. Tanked.....by the time it all came into effect, IK unlike bhutto had gotten hold of the sipher n used it to full effect n was able to mobilize the public opinion in his favour. As any one anti u.s sells n here was a man directly challenging the u.s. The people had forgotten it all n are 100 % behind IK now.