Here is your 55BN Rawalpindi Metro Project my STUPID awaam

[WishLivePak]

Dude, Running cost of BRTS can be covered easily by making people pay more or less same which they were paying in public transport (where they used to travel in worst possible conditions including time waste in traffic jams), Obviously flat rate system will not work as it will be expensive for majority, so ticketing system/fare structure should be revised to make it win-win for all. Pakistan is not a rich country that we can afford to keep adding burden of subsidies of millions of rupees per month for each new route opened. If this is the modal you want govt. to follow than govt. should stop wasting money just for political gains and use funds on other productive projects i.e. Improve health, education, clean water, sanitation etc. People are already traveling and paying for it with no burden on public kitty.

Metro is also productive project. The buses are newer and hence pollute the air less, so less effects on health and environment. Plus gives a cheap transport mode for poor people. And public transportation is very important. Cities cannot thrive without it. We've issues with health education and so on, but they will be far more costly than public transportation. Not to mention public transportation actually generates revenue, whereas clean water and so forth doesn't generate to an equal extent.

The gov't will keep adding more routes and it's going to keep adding burden onto tax payers. The train system is going to be more expensive and will also be subsidized.

In Canada, our transport fare will be much higher if it wasn't for the gov't to subsidize transportation somewhat and pitching in billions of dollars to help construct. So we cannot rule out metro projects just because it's a white elephant. We need more of these in every major city EVEN if it means adding more burden on tax payers. This is how public transportation works.

The only better way to combat this scenario is to let private firms do the transportation system. Sadly, not many firms are rich enough and those who are will not risk their investment.

In the end, we will have metro projects in many cities to come and gov't will continue to heavily subsidize it. You or I cannot stop it.

1) Sindh government has been working on a plan that I'd reviewed a while ago. It used to be called the Circular Railway plan, which was a version of the Subway. They wanted Western and later Korean companies to work with them on it. That got scrapped.
Recently, they were working with Daewoo to acquire a few hundreds of large buses to start a Metro bus project. I think it was supposed to be announced three weeks ago. May be a little delayed. They were looking for private financers for it, from large Cement, Construction and other companies who are large enough to co-partner with the State government. It should be announced soon I think.

2) KPK was trying to get Chinese investment. The Chinese weren't extending the needed credit or investment due to a lack of proper credit score and history of completing projects (this is how Punjab, Sindh and now Baluchistan get funding). KPK government need to start finishing up real, actual big projects so they can build a history for others to trust on (foreign investment).

3) I think Faisalabad and Multan have already been approved. I think I saw it somewhere on an IMF report. Work was slated to begin by 2015-2016.....

4) Transparency International was brought in by NS and SS a few years ago to audit all of these big projects. There won't be any corruption at the higher level for sure. 10-20% will ALWAYS be present at the street / lower level. So watch out for news from TI

regarding point 2, Imran Khan said he won't pay back loans. So this will tell foreign investors to not invest. Hence little investment in Kpk. Meanwhile, Punjab has gov't there and in center, so the Chinese know they will be paid for their dues.

It's sad KPK is missing out so much, I guess that's why they're so jealous. This election Imran was complaining on how metro bus is fail project and he's going to make train in Peshawar, Kpk. Well, train project got dropped and there was news of bus project. So far, nothing actual done on bus project.

Meanwhile, Punjab is working on train system and also expanding its bus system to other cities.

 

[Sugarcane]

Metro is also productive project. The buses are newer and hence pollute the air less, so less effects on health and environment. Plus gives a cheap transport mode for poor people. And public transportation is very important. Cities cannot thrive without it. We've issues with health education and so on, but they will be far more costly than public transportation. Not to mention public transportation actually generates revenue, whereas clean water and so forth doesn't generate to an equal extent.

How it is going to generate revenue when it's being run on subsidy? Health, education and clean water will be equally or more productive than heavily subsidized transportation.

The gov't will keep adding more routes and it's going to keep adding burden onto tax payers. The train system is going to be more expensive and will also be subsidized.

In Canada, our transport fare will be much higher if it wasn't for the gov't to subsidize transportation somewhat and pitching in billions of dollars to help construct. So we cannot rule out metro projects just because it's a white elephant. We need more of these in every major city EVEN if it means adding more burden on tax payers. This is how public transportation works

The only better way to combat this scenario is to let private firms do the transportation system. Sadly, not many firms are rich enough and those who are will not risk their investment.

In the end, we will have metro projects in many cities to come and gov't will continue to heavily subsidize it. You or I cannot stop it.

Pakistan is not Canada, so pretty stupid example to give. In Pakistan governments instead of taxing Rich and including more segments in tax base, it over load mango men with indirect taxes. So, the subsidy you are blabbering will be taken back from common man in form of GST, SED & Surcharges. Unless Ganja show balls to tax rich and add more segments like. in to tax net either these system will collapse one day or govt. will go bank corrupt because you can't run country forever on AIDS or loans to cover budget deficit.

 

[WishLivePak]

How it is going to generate revenue when it's being run on subsidy? Health, education and clean water will be equally or more productive than heavily subsidized transportation.



Pakistan is not Canada, so pretty stupid example to give. In Pakistan governments instead of taxing Rich and including more segments in tax base, it over load mango men with indirect taxes. So, the subsidy you are blabbering will be taken back from common man in form of GST, SED & Surcharges. Unless Ganja show balls to tax rich and add more segments like. in to tax net either these system will collapse one day or govt. will go bank corrupt because you can't run country forever on AIDS or loans to cover budget deficit.

revenue is revenue, it includes losses and profits.

If people were paying 0 rupees, then it'd be 0 revenue. If people pay 70 rupees and gov't 30, there is still revenue in there.

 

[Sugarcane]

revenue is revenue, it includes losses and profits.

If people were paying 0 rupees, then it'd be 0 revenue. If people pay 70 rupees and gov't 30, there is still revenue in there.

In this way people also pay fees in Hospitals and schools, doesn't matter how much they pay. After all revenue is revenue. Unlike transportation, hospitals are required to save lives of people and by providing quality education maybe next generation will be able to pull themselves out of poverty. So, GoP have to set her priority right as per aukat and needs, if Khadam-e-Alla is really concerned about poor people not vote than i will have no problem at all if he cover this subsidy by taxing big agriculture land holders and adding increasing tax net, not by indirect taxes which are already too high for poor man to pay.

 

[I FLY HIGH]

So 1 article gave everyone the insight into the project? Stop turning everything into PTI vs PML N. When its time for elections then the N and IK fan boys can have their goo but till then this is about Pakistan. Nawaz Sharif is the prime minster of Pakistan and get over it.
Is anyone from Lahore and has used the metro there? How is that metro doing? Is it profitable? How are the passenger numbers?

Metro is awesome , people who does not have their own cars are more than happy , while who have their cars criticise it . It offers a very cheap ticket to common man i.e Rs 20 to travel for the whole of the route . It carries 1,50,000 passengers in a day .

 

[WishLivePak]

In this way people also pay fees in Hospitals and schools, doesn't matter how much they pay. After all revenue is revenue. Unlike transportation, hospitals are required to save lives of people and by providing quality education maybe next generation will be able to pull themselves out of poverty. So, GoP have to set her priority right as per aukat and needs, if Khadam-e-Alla is really concerned about poor people not vote than i will have no problem at all if he cover this subsidy by taxing big agriculture land holders and adding increasing tax net, not by indirect taxes which are already too high for poor man to pay.

Except not as many people go to hospital. These buses are serving I bet hundreds of thousands of riders everyday. How many are hospitals serving? There is daily ridership and you times that a month, it is huge. Consider a metro bus revenue and hospital and school revenue in Lahore.

You can make many hospitals but if people can't pay for it, they're useless. Govt needs to offer subsidy for poor patients more than building a hospital.


I'm not saying we don't need hospitals or school, as you are taking conversation that way, but I'm saying that transportation is also very important for major cities. Though govt gives huge subsidy to transportation (I think it should be less, but some nonetheless), it generates nearly a billion rupees in revenue annually.

A project that cost 30 billion rupees generates 1 billion rupees on annual icome every year. Pretty good, considering govt pays some 2/3 subsidy.

I hold education more important than health, but it doesn't mean govt should not do anything but conventrate on health and education. A big part of expenditure should be on education, then health and then whatever, but we can't neglect a major city from having a good transportation system. I also don't agree govt should've spent 30 billion it and should've gone for cheaper one

 

[Sugarcane]

Except not as many people go to hospital. These buses are serving I bet millions of riders everyday. How many are hospitals serving? There is daily ridership and you times that a month, it is huge. Consider a metro bus revenue and hospital and school revenue in Lahore.

Have you ever been Public hospitals (where they exists)? It's always good to talk like that when you are enjoying welfare provided by Canadian govt.

You can make many hospitals but if people can't pay for it, they're useless. Govt needs to offer subsidy for poor patients more than building a hospital.

LOL @ Subsidy, Govt. first need to provide hospitals and basic things in already existing hospitals.

I'm not saying we don't need hospitals or school, as you are taking conversation that way, but I'm saying that transportation is also very important for major cities. Though govt gives huge subsidy to transportation (I think it should be less, but some nonetheless), it generates nearly a billion rupees in revenue annually.

I already stated that transportation projects are very important, we should have built BRTs 2 decades ago. I am talking about giving more subsidies when govt. don't have money to begin with and every years take loans and AIDS to cover budget deficit. Hack we take loans to pay interests and installments of existing loans to avoid going bank corrupt.

A project that cost 30 billion rupees generates 1 billion rupees on annual icome every year. Pretty good, considering govt pays some 2/3 subsidy.

Dude, What 1 billion you are talking about? Talk about how much more million govt. have to pay from her pocket? And from where these extra money will come? More Loans? More indirect taxes on mango men?

 

[WishLivePak]

Have you ever been Public hospitals (where they exists)? It's always good to talk like that when you are enjoying welfare provided by Canadian govt.



LOL @ Subsidy, Govt. first need to provide hospitals and basic things in already existing hospitals.



I already stated that transportation projects are very important, we should have built BRTs 2 decades ago. I am talking about giving more subsidies when govt. don't have money to begin with and every years take loans and AIDS to cover budget deficit. Hack we take loans to pay interests and installments of existing loans to avoid going bank corrupt.



Dude, What 1 billion you are talking about? Talk about how much more million govt. have to pay from her pocket? And from where these extra money will come? More Loans? More indirect taxes on mango men?

I don't completely like Canadian healthcare. I have to wait 8 months to see a specialist. It's easy to talk about Canadian health care when you live in pakistan. Meanwhile I've been to pakistani hospital and been taken there as well.

Govt is already providing many funds for hospitals and education. If you were Harper of Canada, people will take you to court. We don't have the best health care system and we need more hospitals, but it doesn't mean we don't give attention to public transport system, even though it costs billions of dollars.

Indeed govt spends 1.6 billion rupees to give subsidy for metro bus. I don't agree with such high amount. But I'll also say, which I've said many times but you failed to read, public transportation needs subsidy.

We are actually paying our loans back and our economy outlook is better. There was huge debt carried over from previous govt. Plus we need loans for big infrastructures, such as dams or power plants.

I suggest you get more up to date with pakistan economy and then we can discuss the issue better.

 

[xyxmt]

You idiots, it was under construction and heavy rain brought mud in the deeper parts.
I am ashamed to be called Pakistani if this is the caliber of Pakistani (supposedly educated) people.

 

[Sugarcane]

I don't completely like Canadian healthcare. I have to wait 8 months to see a specialist. It's easy to talk about Canadian health care when you live in pakistan. Meanwhile I've been to pakistani hospital and been taken there as well.

Govt is already providing many funds for hospitals and education. If you were Harper of Canada, people will take you to court. We don't have the best health care system and we need more hospitals, but it doesn't mean we don't give attention to public transport system, even though it costs billions of dollars.

I have all the reasons to doubt that you have been Govt. Hospitals of Pakistan as normal Pakistani.

Indeed govt spends 1.6 billion rupees to give subsidy for metro bus. I don't agree with such high amount. But I'll also say, which I've said many times but you failed to read, public transportation needs subsidy.

Sure, Ideally public transport needs subsidy, food needs to be subsidized for poor people and lot other things. But as i said we have keep our aukat in mind, you need money to fund subsidies - it's not that govt. will just print notes and start funding subsidies.

We are actually paying our loans back and our economy outlook is better. There was huge debt carried over from previous govt. Plus we need loans for big infrastructures, such as dams or power plants.

Loans for Infrastructure are different from AIDS & Loans to cover budget deficit. Come back when we will start having balanced budget for few consecutive years.

I suggest you get more up to date with pakistan economy and then we can discuss the issue better.

You perhaps need basic addition and subtraction to understand that you can't spend more than your earning - and nobody is going to give AIDS & Loans forever unless you keep compromising your sovereignty (The current situation of Pakistan) Than perpahs we will be able to discuss.

Take Care

 

[WishLivePak]

I have all the reasons to doubt that you have been Govt. Hospitals of Pakistan as normal Pakistani.



Sure, Ideally public transport needs subsidy, food needs to be subsidized for poor people and lot other things. But as i said we have keep our aukat in mind, you need money to fund subsidies - it's not that govt. will just print notes and start funding subsidies.



Loans for Infrastructure are different from AIDS & Loans to cover budget deficit. Come back when we will start having balanced budget for few consecutive years.



You perhaps need basic addition and subtraction to understand that you can't spend more than your earning - and nobody is going to give AIDS & Loans forever unless you keep compromising your sovereignty (The current situation of Pakistan) Than perpahs we will be able to discuss.

Take Care

Perhaps you need to understand that PMLn just came in power 2 years ago. Even if it was PTI, we would continue to have budget deficit. We cannot fix this until we take loans to keep the country running and from defaulting and grow the economy so one day we can start having surplus.

If things were as simple as addition and substraction, people wouldn't be learning economics. There is far more to it and despite my extensive studies/knowledge, even I know not enough.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Perhaps you need to understand that PMLn just came in power 2 years ago. Even if it was PTI, we would continue to have budget deficit. We cannot fix this until we take loans to keep the country running and grow the economy so one day we can start having surplus.

What I've been saying for a very long time. In fact, I suspect, unless PTi were to pull some very unpopular increases in taxes, decreases in spending, and subsidies, their current indication is to the whims and wishes of people to increase spending, running up debt. Either way, they would have either been unpopular and still largely unsuccessful, at best decreasing the deficit at a steady rate or they'd run up the deficit as theirs is a populist movement, and Pakistanis love freebies.

 

[WishLivePak]

What I've been saying for a very long time. In fact, I suspect, unless PTi were to pull some very unpopular increases in taxes, decreases in spending, and subsidies, their current indication is to the whims and wishes of people to increase spending, running up debt. Either way, they would have either been unpopular and still largely unsuccessful, at best decreasing the deficit at a steady rate or they'd run up the deficit as theirs is a populist movement, and Pakistanis love freebies.

No I disagree. Pti 'd tax the rich and what would they do? Flee with the capital. Why would any investor or rich want to live in pakistan? They rather move abroad where they'll pay higher tax but also enjoy higher quality of life. There was some Saudi company that left because it couldn't get lucrative deal with govt.


If I was in power, I'd go after tax evaders and tax middle income slightly more and even reduce tax on rich and investments.

In Canada we give billions of dollars of subsidy nd tax allowance so companies come here and invest. A middle income guy here pays 20-30% in tax.


PTI whole camp has been tax rich, which is pure bs considering how tareen is next to him. Pakistan will collapse if we go after the rich and industrialist. The only incentive for them is profit. I'm not sayng we should tax poor more, but we've no choice and we have too.

 

[Sugarcane]

Perhaps you need to understand that PMLn just came in power 2 years ago. Even if it was PTI, we would continue to have budget deficit. We cannot fix this until we take loans to keep the country running and from defaulting and grow the economy so one day we can start having surplus.

My objection has nothing to do with any political party, but the policy of spending more than earning. And we will remain near to defaulting line unless we fix our stupidities and giving senseless subsidies just for votes is one of them and keep giving bamboo of indirect taxes to common man instead of direct taxation are examples of such stupidities. Yeah, on day God Almighty will shower dollars in Pakistan to payoff all our loans, until than we should continue spending more than our aukat and keep washing dirty laundry of others to get loans and Aids to cover gap.

If things were as simple as addition and substraction, people wouldn't be learning economics. There is far more to it and despite my extensive studies/knowledge, even I know not enough.

Basics of economics also tells that you have earn revenues for spending, no rocket science is required there. Pakistan is one of few countries with pathetic tax to GDP ratio, and leader in imposing indirect taxes.

 

[A.M.]

Posting in bold and larger font doesn't make you cool.