Hellenic Navy: Construction of the second FDI HN frigate begins.

[Akritas]

Of pivotal and decisive importance are the developments on the front of the construction of the new FDI HN frigates for the Navy. Today, the ceremony of cutting the first sheet of the 2nd FDI HN Frigate for the Hellenic Navy took place at the Naval Group shipyard in the city of Lorient.

The FDI HNs will rapidly and sustainably enhance the capabilities of the Greek Navy's surface fleet as they will be delivered in a very short time frame, starting in 2025 for the first two units and 2026 for the third.

There is also an option to order a 4th frigate, which must be activated by the summer of 2023, with deliver time the 2026.

Πολεμικό Ναυτικό: Ξεκινά η ναυπήγηση της δεύτερης φρεγάτας FDI, με απόλυτη επιτυχία το πρόγραμμα και εντός χρονοδιαγράμματος - Defence Review

Κομβικής και καθοριστικής σημασίας είναι οι εξελίξεις από το μέτωπο της ναυπήγησης των νέων φρεγατών FDI HN για το Πολεμικό Ναυτικό (ΠΝ). Σήμερα, πραγματοποιήθηκε η τελετή κοπής του πρώτου ελάσματος της δεύτερης Φρεγάτας για το Ελληνικό Πολεμικό Ναυτικό (FDI HN) στο ναυπηγείο της Naval Group στη...

defencereview.gr

 

[Foinikas]

We have problems though. The French don't have an ECM for the ships yet and like Ptisi said,they don't even have decoys and chaff on the ship. I wonder if we should have gone for the Sigma 11515,but then again the price was good and the decision was also political.

 

[Akritas]

We have problems though. The French don't have an ECM for the ships yet and like Ptisi said,they don't even have decoys and chaff on the ship. I wonder if we should have gone for the Sigma 11515,but then again the price was good and the decision was also political.

Patience is needed, which the Ptisi has not shown with the French frigates, which are of a new generation in terms of their electronics and especially the Sentinel system.

As far as the ECM is concerned, couldn't a top ECM be entered from the beginning (nettuno4110) that both fremm and horizon have and that's it?
Of course it could but HN doesn't want to commit to something older.
An even cheaper option is the Italian ecm that enters the gowind of the emirates.
But ΗΝ wants the best in the long run and waits.
So all the rumors that the trouble will remain without ECM are from the cunning.

 

[Foinikas]

Patience is needed, which the Ptisi has not shown with the French frigates, which are of a new generation in terms of their electronics and especially the Sentinel system.

As far as the ECM is concerned, couldn't a top ECM be entered from the beginning (nettuno4110) that both fremm and horizon have and that's it?
Of course it could but HN doesn't want to commit to something older.
An even cheaper option is the Italian ecm that enters the gowind of the emirates.
But ΗΝ wants the best in the long run and waits.
So all the rumors that the trouble will remain without ECM are from the cunning.

I know but...they say the ships might be fully ready in 2028. I wish they could have the first ship ready by 2025 but then again...

 

[dBSPL]

We have problems though. The French don't have an ECM for the ships yet and like Ptisi said,they don't even have decoys and chaff on the ship. I wonder if we should have gone for the Sigma 11515,but then again the price was good and the decision was also political.

It seems to me a very bold step for Greece again, to place a parallel order before this class even entered service in the French navy.The system is very innovative in terms of the capabilities it promises, and many problems can arise when the lead ship is launched and in acceptance tests. In a way, France seems to share the risk with Greece. The process reminds me a lot of the Type-214 construction process with HDW. The German company had a very good sale at that time, but they could not meet the demands of the Greek navy(and also ROK Navy), and for a long time denied their responsibility for the problems.

 

[Foinikas]

It seems to me a very bold step for Greece again, to place a parallel order before this class even entered service in the French navy. The system is very innovative in terms of the capabilities it promises, and many problems can arise when the lead ship is launch and in acceptance tests. In a way, France seems to share the risk with Greece. The process reminds me a lot of the Type-214 construction process with HDW. The German company had a very good sale at that time, but they could not meet the demands of the Greek navy(and also ROK Navy), and for a long time denied their responsibility for the problems.

The French are now realizing their strategic mistakes. First,they realized that their FDI were underequipped,after we demanded 32 Aster-30 missiles and a RAM as CIWS.

Imagine,the French didn't even have a CIWS planned for the ship!

What they said about the ECM was that they were developing a new ECM system just for the FDI frigates,but that it would be ready around 2028 or later.

Now the French Navy is angry because apparently,they didn't even include basic countermeasures and decoys. Apparently,from what I had read,the FDI were supposed to be a successor to the La Fayette class. Armed with only 16 Aster-30 missiles for the French Navy as defence. They probably had a different doctrine in their mind.

But a recent exercise in the Western Mediterranean among NATO allies,shocked the French because of their losses in the simulation. Which made them think that they need to do something about all the lack of defence on their ships.

Now,the Dutch offer was great and the Hellenic Navy has had a long and excellent cooperation with Damen.

The British had come with a nice offer too

The Spanish proposal for the F110 was too expensive and without any political advantage...

The American proposal was...probably one of the worst I guess:

The Italians offered us FREMM Bergamini and the Germans were extremely "cold". There's even a video where they refused to talk to the interviewer,after he interviewed all companies and their offers. Probably because they knew we were extremely displeased with their silence during the 2020 events and their support for Erdogan.

Very good video,watch to the end if you want.

Now this is a chart about the headache of choosing the future frigate:

One important thing is that it wasn't sure that the Americans would give us SM-2 missiles.

Also the French had 3 advantages: The price,they would give us the second and third frigates that were to be built (the HN didn't want the first one anyone,because it's better for the French to test the first ship and improve upon any problems) and of course the political advantage. France was the only country that supported us during 2020.

Now,like you said,the Germans are a good choice and they would have been the best to modernize the MEKO 200HN too,but...that would have caused a scandal in Greece.

 

[Akritas]

I know but...they say the ships might be fully ready in 2028. I wish they could have the first ship ready by 2025 but then again...

Look at what Ptisi wrote, which raised the issue, that finally the FDI HN will have an ECM, a new generation one. In fact, it has already been written in the press, that the compartment as well as the wiring will be included in the FDI HN for the ECM and not the French FDI.
Obviously, the existing ones are not sufficient in modern electronic warfare.

 

[Foinikas]

Look at what Ptisi wrote, which raised the issue, that finally the FDI HN will have an ECM, a new generation one. In fact, it has already been written in the press, that the compartment as well as the wiring will be included in the FDI HN for the ECM and not the French FDI.
Obviously, the existing ones are not sufficient in modern electronic warfare.


View attachment 861879

So what about Nettuno 4100?

 

[Akritas]

So what about Nettuno 4100?

It has already been marked.....obsolete in terms of interfacing with the new FDI HN electronic systems, because it was designed and built in the first decade of the 2000s.

I want to add this: the FDI HN was preferred not only because it was the best frigate in terms of design, but also for the guarantee of its delivery times
Greek navy wanted frigates, which could face two Turkish threats.....

• the corresponding Turkish, Istanbul classes, any comparison should be made with them. eg 32 Aster 30 versus 16 Hisar, SENTINEL EWS versus Aselsan Systems, etc
• Turkish U-214, the anti-submarine warfare, where the combination of Captas 4, Kingklip Mk2, Canto and Romeo Helis is the best there is in the Western arsenal.

 

[Foinikas]

It has already been marked.....obsolete in terms of interfacing with the new FDI HN electronic systems, because it was designed and built in the first decade of the 2000s.

I want to add this: the FDI HN was preferred not only because it was the best frigate in terms of design, but also for the guarantee of its delivery times
Greek navy wanted frigates, which could face two Turkish threats.....

• the corresponding Turkish, Istanbul classes, any comparison should be made with them. eg 32 Aster 30 versus 16 Hisar, SENTINEL EWS versus Aselsan Systems, etc
• Turkish U-214, the anti-submarine warfare, where the combination of Captas 4, Kingklip Mk2, Canto and Romeo Helis is the best there is in the Western arsenal.

I heard on TV they might deliver the first frigate even sooner? But Ptisi said it will not be fully ready until 2028. Although I believe the Navy could have it ready sooner(installing the RAM,finding a temporary ECM,telling the French to install the extra cells for the second batch of Aster-30 faster,training the crews etc.)

Now,we have to see what they will choose for the corvettes.

 

[Akritas]

I heard on TV they might deliver the first frigate even sooner? But Ptisi said it will not be fully ready until 2028. Although I believe the Navy could have it ready sooner(installing the RAM,finding a temporary ECM,telling the French to install the extra cells for the second batch of Aster-30 faster,training the crews etc.)

Now,we have to see what they will choose for the corvettes.

Dates are specific and locked. Naval do not want delays, because they obviously also want other orders such as e.g. the 4th FDI HN and from the French Navy.
This mean two FDI HN at 2025 and one in 2026.
All three will be in the Greek configuration at the end of 2027.
Whether we get them sooner depends on two things: the progress of construction (which is already earlier) and the end of the French FDI sea trials and tests.

 

[Akritas]

We have problems though. The French don't have an ECM for the ships yet and like Ptisi said,they don't even have decoys and chaff on the ship. I wonder if we should have gone for the Sigma 11515,but then again the price was good and the decision was also political.

There are also developments in the ECM issue as defencereview.gr informed, have already presented solutions for the installation on the Greek FDI.
The solutions concern

• either the development and installation of a new system in collaboration with Thales and Naval Group
• or the installation of an existing but new generation fully upgraded such as the French FREMM and specifically NETTUNO.

Πολεμικό Ναυτικό: Η ναυπήγηση των FDI κομίζει ευχάριστες εκπλήξεις που δικαιώνουν την επιλογή των γαλλικών φρεγατών - Defence Review

Απόλυτα δικαιωμένη αισθάνεται η ηγεσία του Πολεμικού Ναυτικού (ΠΝ) καθότι το πρόγραμμα ναυπήγησης των ελληνικών φρεγατών FDI προχωρά με γοργούς ρυθμούς και νωρίτερα έναντι του προβλεπόμενου χρονοδιαγράμματος. Παράλληλα η συνεργασία μεταξύ του Ναυτικού κλιμακίου της Λοριάν του ΠΝ και της NAVAL...

defencereview.gr

 

[Foinikas]

There are also developments in the ECM issue as defencereview.gr informed, have already presented solutions for the installation on the Greek FDI.
The solutions concern

• either the development and installation of a new system in collaboration with Thales and Naval Group
• or the installation of an existing but new generation fully upgraded such as the French FREMM and specifically NETTUNO.

Πολεμικό Ναυτικό: Η ναυπήγηση των FDI κομίζει ευχάριστες εκπλήξεις που δικαιώνουν την επιλογή των γαλλικών φρεγατών - Defence Review

Απόλυτα δικαιωμένη αισθάνεται η ηγεσία του Πολεμικού Ναυτικού (ΠΝ) καθότι το πρόγραμμα ναυπήγησης των ελληνικών φρεγατών FDI προχωρά με γοργούς ρυθμούς και νωρίτερα έναντι του προβλεπόμενου χρονοδιαγράμματος. Παράλληλα η συνεργασία μεταξύ του Ναυτικού κλιμακίου της Λοριάν του ΠΝ και της NAVAL...

defencereview.gr

So Naval Group might have the ECM ready by 2025,huh?

 

[Abid123]

Sad to see Greece spending billions on useless toys it does not need.

 

[Foinikas]

Sad to see Greece spending billions on useless toys it does not need.

Well then,why do you spend billions on ships,aircraft and new tanks when you have nukes? Why do you keep spending money on..."useless toys"?