Hate Speech in a Secular State

[haviZsultan]

I watched the entire message now... in the end he talks about unity... no one heard that? We know the Owaisi's and they are actually patriotic Indians. The real movement that is for independence is the Azad Deccan Movement but that is too small but it has heavy links to the AIMIM and a lot of people complained about these guys at AIMIM making promises but not delivering which may be the reason for this speech. Youtube was actually banned here for a bit so I did not know what this thread was about. I engaged hotspot shield to watch it fully. There is a full version of the speech here:

Some of my distant relatives from Hyderabad particularly from fathers side. The Muslims there have major issues which he highlighted through statistics and it cannot be denied. I suggest Indians make efforts to solve the issues they face in their daily lives which may help to defuse the situation. Akbaruddin Owaisi is a seasoned politician and a very good man. A grandson of Gandhi gave a horrific speech, people say things when they are frustrated. Those housing issues are real and a very troubling aspect of being an Indian muslim. I have throughout my life defended the Hyderabadi Muslims as some of my fathers side also from there.

Do not mistake them. Lucknowites have no political conscience. Even a cousin stated to me "we are like sheep and have no leader... the hindus can lead us wherever we want (We here meant Muslim). But if you talk to a lot of Hyderabadi Muslims they have since partition been very strong in voting for Owaisi family. Jailing him will strenghthen his position. He has already been shot which expanded his votebank. There is every chance the party may be making inroads outside its traditional stronghold in Andhra.

I would comment on this further because since we moved a little late and moved some family members after Gujarat we very strongly identify with those left back there. But even I am trying to forget this aspect and integrate within Pakistan amongst the various races. But this is a serious issue of potentially explosive nature. A leader of this stature isn't arrested, instead the cause of his grievances towards Hindustan should be addressed. Another thing is those from my family (Indian side) mostly who have met this man, he has never come across as anti-indian. The muslims make this point constantly but you refuse to listen to them because you want to impose your agenda on them. Its not the right way to proceed.

 

[neutral_person]

Honestly, cant all these guys just move to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia and live with their Muslim Ummah? Why do they have to create trouble for us Indians?

The Indian Muslims that want to put country before religion should stay, the others that want to use their religion to poison India can f&ck right off to Pakistan, which is exactly what it was created for...

 

[haviZsultan]

@ajtr could cast light on the issues prevalent for Indian Muslims. She is the most fearless of the Indian muslims on this site.

Personally our family is from Lucknow and surroundings too with extensive links in Delhi, Hyderabad and parts of Bihar among other places. But I realized that basically all of them have slowly integrated except few families from Hyderabad where distant relatives suffered riots. I decided too many links with them a bit bad and just used by chauvinists in Pakistan and the anti-Indian crowd. One day I just said my background was from Lucknow and these guys said you are Indian, this and that. Seriously had to tell them we consider that a part of Pakistan with our ancestral home which hosted the muslim league actually being there.

Would be very interesting what you think here by the way as a woman from India married to a Pakistani. Unfortunately being an off and on presence I have not heard from you that often.

 

[KRAIT]

@haviZsultan I don't know whether you really have relatives in India or not

But if Owasi says we 25 crore Muslims will kill 100 crore Hindus, mocks our God etc. It comes under hate speech. Don't you have blasphemy laws ? Would you allow such speech in your country ?

So you can skirt around the topic or actually see the meaning of "Hate Speech".

 

[KS]

@haviZsultan I don't know whether you really have relatives in India or not

But if Owasi says we 25 crore Muslims will kill 100 crore Hindus, mocks our God etc. It comes under hate speech. Don't you have blasphemy laws ? Would you allow such speech in your country ?

So you can skirt around the topic or actually see the meaning of "Hate Speech".

Why blame Pakistanis when we have our people too playing the same victimhood tune and rationalizing his speech..I could not care less what a Pakistani says..he is just irrelevant in our equation..but its a matter of concern when Indians say the same thing.

1) I am not saying she is not a hypocrite.

2)Please spare us. Everything is not a conspiracy against BJP and Narendra Modi.

1) Exactly what I wanted to say. She is a hypocrite. Glad you agreed.

2)And no where did I use Narendra Modi in my posts. Why would everything come back to that same word. Man, the obsession with one man seems incurable.

 

[haviZsultan]

@haviZsultan I don't know whether you really have relatives in India or not

But if Owasi says we 25 crore Muslims will kill 100 crore Hindus, mocks our God etc. It comes under hate speech. Don't you have blasphemy laws ? Would you allow such speech in your country ?

So you can skirt around the topic or actually see the meaning of "Hate Speech".

Your suspicions very valid krait... I am sticking my bum in two communities affairs. It is actually the other way around. I am trying to adopt Pashtun identity but initially of Lucknowi descent with relatives spread out in other regions... you will not understand as the internal ethnic situation in Pakistan is largely beyond you very much as I would know very little about Madras... not your fault actually very little coverage. But knowing about the movement and frequenting the Azad Deccan office in Canada I know a bit of the background. As far as Deccan and Lucknowi politics are concerned I have a link to it because of our background. Both have part of my family.

My family indeed does have its ancestral home in India. Its 2/5 of our family in Pakistan and 3/5 in India. Perhaps its 1/2 for both but I don't know because of the visa issue and loss of contact with the family in India particularly those not in Lucknow since the closest relatives remain there. This is not actually uncommon.

I have for a very long time very strongly identified with many muslims and supported them though of course consider myself Pakistani. But they have been moving away from us for a while now and been integrating. Most are integrated in India. Later on partly because of that I wondered if it was really healthy to be concerned about them so much and later by traversing on a path of adopting another culture a lot of my initial contact with them largely disappeared. The real problem as far as our family is concerned is in Hyderabad from where Owaisi gave this speech. There were killings there right after Gujarat or an after affect which have heavily been ignored and under-reported. Its a very religiously polarized town and some relatives were killed there.

Think of this. Ancestral land belonging to a lot of Muslims was appropriated in 1948 and the years after it, still not returned. There is a higher proportion of Muslims in the Hyderabad jail than their population. If you check that speech you will see the housing problem is massive. It was part of the reason one family moved from Hyderabad even as late as 2004.

As far as Owaisi is concerned I do not want to prejudice you against him as that will only cause a crisis for relatives. Some have even caught a comment from this site very long ago in the past and told me so. You identifying so closely with us and saying you are a Pakistani will mean RSS mobs may attack us but they can't touch Pakistan. He has never stated anti-Indian feelings. Even in this speech he means Hindustan as in Hindutvadi groups.

But recently some pressure groups have been involved. Azad Deccan movement and another movement Hyderabadi Nizam Tehreek may be putting pressure on Owaisi's to challenge the Hindutva groups. This however isn't just common with these 2 groups I mentioned. The real issue is that the Muslims of Hyderabad mostly feel the same way and feel they have been wronged. Eliminate the underlying issue and the problem will be resolved. Be favourable to one community and not another it may persist.

Owaisi brothers are good people. I know someone who is related to people among the family. This is frustration speaking. Listen to the laws he has proposed which have been struck down. Being a minority is very hard. Don't judge these people too harshly. Personally I strongly believe in secularism and the fact that it should not hurt anyone's bum if the Hindus in Pakistan make a speech, even an anti-muslim one on account of the fact they have been suffering. They are a minority community.

Plus isn't it now that the issue is being diverted.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

'Hate speeches won't make Owaisi a
hero of Muslims'
January 08, 2013
Why did Majlis-e-Ittehadul
Muslimeen leader Akbaruddin
Owaisi's make his recent hate
speech that has landed in hot
waters? Was he appealing to the
base elements in his community, or
was there a grander design behind
it?
In an interview with rediff.com 's
Vicky Nanjappa, Zahid Ali Khan,
editor-in-chief of the popular Urdu
daily Siasat, says Owaisi's speech
was a desperate attempt to garner
Muslim votes.
W
hat provoked Owaisi to make such a
speech?
The Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen is
facing a downfall. They are not as
strong as they used to be in Hyderabad
or the rest of Andhra Pradesh. The hate
speech was nothing but an attempt to
garner the support of Muslims.
Has it had an impact among
Muslims?
Barring a few in the community, the rest
are not impressed at all. This speech
had special effects, but in the long run
will not help either the Muslims or
Owaisi himself. He cannot become a
hero of the Muslims by making such
hate speeches.
What do such speeches do to
society? Does the divide grow
further?
I hope the divide does not grow any
further. The seculars have to step in and
ensure that hate speech givers from
both communities are not allowed to go
away scot-free and influence the minds
of people. Owaisi needs to understand
that we live in a country where we are a
minority. We have to take into
consideration the majority community as
well. There is no point in making such a
speech. Such speeches -- either by the
MIM or Togadia (VHP leader Praveen
Togadia) -- won't do any good to
society.
What are your views on the stand
taken by the Kiran Kumar Reddy
government in Andhra Pradesh?
They have to act against any person
making such speeches. There is no point
sitting silent. The MIM wants to increase
its vote bank and also dislodge the
government. The MIM has made several
demands but the government has not
fulfilled them, hence they decided to
withdraw support. Now that the
elections are nearing they are trying
hard to create a vote bank, but little do
they realise this is not the way.
In the midst of all this, the
development of the old city of
Hyderabad takes a backseat. What
are your views?
The MIM thinks they are uniting the
Muslims through such speeches. I agree
that the old city is in a mess; there are
no roads and the entire area is filled
with mosquitoes. This is not a sign of
development; the MIM ought to have
prioritised.
How do you rate the two brothers --
Asad Owaisi and Abkar Owaisi?
Both are trying to become heroes of the
Muslims by adopting similar tactics.
Asad posed as the leader of the Muslims
at the national level, whereas Akbar did
it at the state level.
You say that such a speech will not
have an impact on the Muslims but
the crowd seemed to be
overwhelmed when Owaisi made the
speech.
People from Hyderabad were taken in 40
cars to attend that event. His (Owaisi's)
men were all in the front rows clapping
for him which gave an impression that
everyone was supporting him. A few
people clapping in the crowds does not
mean the entire Muslim community is
supporting what he said. People are
educated now and they will judge
whether Owaisi was right or not.
Will Owasi be arrested?
The government should act. However, a
tough stance by the government should
be taken against Togadia too. The law
has to be fair and equal, and anyone
trying to rake up communal tensions
should be taken to task.
Your message for Owaisi?
Islam prohibits hate against other
religions and God himself has said so in
the Quran.
Vicky Nanjappa


'Hate speeches won't make Owaisi a hero of Muslims' - Rediff.com India News

 

[KS]

Addl Cases under IPC Sections 120(b), 124(a), 295(a), 505 & 188 filed against akbaruddin per SP SarvaSresht Tripathi - EENADU - Breaking News

120B. Punishment of criminal conspiracy.--
(1) Whoever is a party to a criminal conspiracy to commit an offence punishable with death, 2[ imprisonment for life] or rigorous imprisonment for a term of two years or upwards, shall, where no express provision is made in this Code for the punishment of such a conspiracy, be punished in the same manner as if he had abetted such offence.
(2) Whoever is a party to a criminal conspiracy other than a criminal conspiracy to commit an offence punishable as aforesaid shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term not exceeding six months, or with fine or with both.] CHAPTER VI OF OFFENCES AGAINST THE STATE CHAPTER VI OF OFFENCES AGAINST THE STATE

124A. 1[ Sedition.-- Whoever by words, either spoken or written, or by signs, or by visible representation, or otherwise, brings or attempts to bring into hatred or contempt, or excites or attempts to excite disaffection towards, 2[ the Government established by law in 3[ India], a 4[ shall be punished with 5[ imprisonment for life], to which fine may be added, or with imprisonment which may extend to three years, to which fine may be added, or with fine. Explanation 1.- The expression" disaffection" includes disloyalty and all feelings of enmity. Explanation 2.- Comments expressing disapprobation of the measures of the Government with a view to obtain their alteration by lawful means, without exciting or attempting to excite hatred, contempt or disaffection, do not constitute an offence under this section. Explanation 3.- Comments expressing disapprobation of the administrative or other action of the Government without exciting or attempting to excite hatred, contempt or disaffection, do not constitute an offence under this section.]

505. 1[ Statements conducing public mischief.-- 2[
(1) ] Whoever makes, publishes or circulates any statement, rumour or report,-

(a) with intent to cause, or which is likely to cause, any officer, soldier, 3[ sailor or airman] in the Army, 4[ Navy or Air Force] 5[ of India] to mutiny or otherwise disregard or fail in his duty as such; or
(b) with intent to cause, or which is likely to cause, fear or alarm to the public, or to any section of the public whereby any person may be induced to commit an offence against the State or against the public tranquility; or

1. Subs. by Act 4 of 1898, s. 6, for the original section.
2. Renumbered by Act 35 of 1969, s. 3.
3. Subs. by Act 10 of 1927, s. 2 and Such. I, for" or sailor".
4. Subs. by s. 2 and Sch. i. ibid., for" or navy".
5. Subs. by the A. O. 1950, for" of Her Majesty or in the Imperial Service Troops". The words" or in the Royal Indian Marine" occurring after the word" Majesty" were rep. by Act 35 of 1934.​

(c) with intent to incite, or which is likely to incite, any class or community of persons to commit any offence against any other class or community, shall be punished with imprisonment which may extend to 1[ three years], or with fine, or with both.​

(2) 2[ Statements creating or promoting enmity, hatred or ill- will between classes.-- Whoever makes, publishes or circulates any statement or report containing rumour or alarming news with intent to create or promote, or which is likely to create or promote, on grounds of religion, race, place of birth, residence, language, caste or community or any other ground whatsoever, feelings of enmity, hatred or ill- will between different religious, racial, language or regional groups or castes or communities, shall be punished with imprisonment which may extend to three years, or with fine, or with both.

(3) Offence under sub- section (2) committed in place of worship, etc.-- Whoever commits an offence specified in sub- section (2) in any place of worship or in any assembly engaged in the performance of religious worship or religious ceremonies, shall be punished with imprisonment which may extend to five years and shall also be liable to fine.] Exception.- It does not amount to an offence, within the meaning of this section, when the person making, publishing or circulating any such statement, rumour or report, has reasonable grounds for believing that such statement, rumour or report is true and makes, publishes or circulates it 2[ in good faith and] without any such intent as aforesaid.]

188. Disobedience to order duly promulgated by public servant.-- Whoever, knowing that, by an order promulgated by a public servant lawfully empowered to promulgate such order, he is directed to abstain from a certain act, or to take certain order with certain property in his possession or under his management. disobeys such direction, shall, if such disobedience causes or tends to cause obstruction, annoyance or injury, or risk of obstruction, annoyance or injury, to any persons lawfully employed, be punished with simple imprisonment for a term which may extend to one month or with fine which may extend to two hundred rupees, or with both: and if such disobedience causes or tends to cause danger to human life, health or safety, or causes or tends to cause a riot or affray, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to six months, or with fine which may extend to one thousand rupees, or with both. Explanation.- It is not necessary that the offender should intend to produce harm, or contemplate his disobedience as likely to produce harm. It is sufficient that he knows of the order which he disobeys, and that his disobedience produces, or is likely to produce, harm. Illustration An order is promulgated by a public servant lawfully empowered to promulgated such order, directing that a religious procession shall not pass down a certain street. A knowingly disobeys the order, and thereby causes danger of riot. A has committed the offence defined in this section.

 

[KS]

I'm taking an exception in replying to a Pakistani on this issue. But the gross amount of ratioanalization you have attempted makes me do so.

Think of this. Ancestral land belonging to a lot of Muslims was appropriated in 1948 and the years after it, still not returned.

Whose fault is that ? I mean surely it was not the non-muslims who started all this "we dont want to live with Hindus" thing. People should have been ready to sacrifice everything when they started it. You cant have the cake and try to eat it too.

There is a higher proportion of Muslims in the Hyderabad jail than their population.

Lot of times I hear this as if the prison population must be in sync with the overall population..if some one commits a crime he/she will be jailed. If muslims are more in jails then that means they committed more crimes. What should there be a reservation system in jails in tune with the demographic balance.

BTW Muslims are roughly 45% in Hyderabad area..can you produce the relevant jail statistics to show that they are 'overepresented' what ever eff that means ?

If you check that speech you will see the housing problem is massive. It was part of the reason one family moved from Hyderabad even as late as 2004.

Housing problem as in ?..yaara I've been in Hyd and as I said 45% of Hyderabad are Muslims..but their overwhelming majority is in the Old city area, a ghetto, which has remained a ghetto like forever..and you know what..it has always been represented by the Owaisi clan. If they are so good and caring why not improve the life standards of the residents of the Old City and not keep them in permament poverty and siege complex so as to reap their votes forever ?

Even in this speech he means Hindustan as in Hindutvadi groups.

Never knew there were 100 crore hindutvadis in India..not even the most optimist braggard right winger would claim that.

Personally I strongly believe in secularism and the fact that it should not hurt anyone's bum if the Hindus in Pakistan make a speech, even an anti-muslim one on account of the fact they have been suffering. They are a minority community.

Did some one just compare Muslims in India and Hindus in Pakistan...?? Enough said.

 

[Iggy]

Owaisi sent to jail for 14 days

Hyderabad, Jan 9 (IANS) Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen (MIM) leader Akbaruddin Owaisi was Wednesday sent to judicial custody for 14 days on charges of delivering a hate speech.
After questioning the legislator through the night, police produced him early Wednesday before a magistrate in Nirmal town in Adilabad district, about 200 km from here.
The MIM leader was then shifted to the district jail in Adilabad town.
A police petition seeking his seven-day custody for further questioning will come up for hearing later Wednesday.
Akbar's lawyer moved a petition seeking his transfer to Chanchalguda Jail in Hyderabad on health grounds.
Akbar was arrested in Hyderabad Tuesday evening after subjecting him to medical tests through the day at the government-run Gandhi Hospital.
He was brought to Nirmal town amid tight security at 10 p.m.
Police officers continued questioning him till 5 a.m. and later produced him before the magistrate.
Akbar was booked by police in Nirmal in connection with a venomous speech delivered by him in the town Dec 22 at a public meeting.
The young leader faces charges of waging or attempting to wage war against the state, promoting enmity between different groups on grounds of religion, and for deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings.
After the questioning Tuesday night, police added charges under five more sections of Indian Penal Code.
He is facing similar charges in Nizamabad town. Police in Hyderabad, Ranga Reddy and other districts also booked cases against him on complaints by activists of the Bharatiya Janata Party and its frontal organisations.

Owaisi sent to jail for 14 days - Yahoo! News India

 

[bronxbull]

What akbaruddin said is being said by some lakhs of hindus across the world including me.But generally fellow hindus wont take it as offence as criticism is part of ancient indian culture.Akbars case is different as he comes from a religion where criticism of his religion is least permitted.further,islam has a long history of animosity with hinduism.so,naturally hindus blood boiled.This will serve as a good precedence .If you dont want ur religion to be ridiculed,its better u dont ridicule others religion.

What akbaruddin said is being said by some lakhs of hindus across the world including me.But generally fellow hindus wont take it as offence as criticism is part of ancient indian culture.Akbars case is different as he comes from a religion where criticism of his religion is least permitted.further,islam has a long history of animosity with hinduism.so,naturally hindus blood boiled.This will serve as a good precedence .If you dont want ur religion to be ridiculed,its better u dont ridicule others religion.

what did akbaruddin say,that u also say?

 

[bronxbull]

I watched the entire message now... in the end he talks about unity... no one heard that? We know the Owaisi's and they are actually patriotic Indians. The real movement that is for independence is the Azad Deccan Movement but that is too small but it has heavy links to the AIMIM and a lot of people complained about these guys at AIMIM making promises but not delivering which may be the reason for this speech. Youtube was actually banned here for a bit so I did not know what this thread was about. I engaged hotspot shield to watch it fully. There is a full version of the speech here:

Some of my distant relatives from Hyderabad particularly from fathers side. The Muslims there have major issues which he highlighted through statistics and it cannot be denied. I suggest Indians make efforts to solve the issues they face in their daily lives which may help to defuse the situation. Akbaruddin Owaisi is a seasoned politician and a very good man. A grandson of Gandhi gave a horrific speech, people say things when they are frustrated. Those housing issues are real and a very troubling aspect of being an Indian muslim. I have throughout my life defended the Hyderabadi Muslims as some of my fathers side also from there.

Do not mistake them. Lucknowites have no political conscience. Even a cousin stated to me "we are like sheep and have no leader... the hindus can lead us wherever we want (We here meant Muslim). But if you talk to a lot of Hyderabadi Muslims they have since partition been very strong in voting for Owaisi family. Jailing him will strenghthen his position. He has already been shot which expanded his votebank. There is every chance the party may be making inroads outside its traditional stronghold in Andhra.

I would comment on this further because since we moved a little late and moved some family members after Gujarat we very strongly identify with those left back there. But even I am trying to forget this aspect and integrate within Pakistan amongst the various races. But this is a serious issue of potentially explosive nature. A leader of this stature isn't arrested, instead the cause of his grievances towards Hindustan should be addressed. Another thing is those from my family (Indian side) mostly who have met this man, he has never come across as anti-indian. The muslims make this point constantly but you refuse to listen to them because you want to impose your agenda on them. Its not the right way to proceed.

He should be happy that his father was not killed or deported to Pakistan after he did what he did.Having grievances towards India is a luxury he cant afford.

 

[Sedqal]

He should be happy that his father was not killed or deported to Pakistan after he did what he did.Having grievances towards India is a luxury he cant afford.

He afforded it alright. Go ahead and deal with him

 

[bronxbull]

@ajtr could cast light on the issues prevalent for Indian Muslims. She is the most fearless of the Indian muslims on this site.

Personally our family is from Lucknow and surroundings too with extensive links in Delhi, Hyderabad and parts of Bihar among other places. But I realized that basically all of them have slowly integrated except few families from Hyderabad where distant relatives suffered riots. I decided too many links with them a bit bad and just used by chauvinists in Pakistan and the anti-Indian crowd. One day I just said my background was from Lucknow and these guys said you are Indian, this and that. Seriously had to tell them we consider that a part of Pakistan with our ancestral home which hosted the muslim league actually being there.

Would be very interesting what you think here by the way as a woman from India married to a Pakistani. Unfortunately being an off and on presence I have not heard from you that often.

she is just a troll and she doesn't know anything.

 

[Iggy]

He afforded it alright. Go ahead and deal with him

Already dealt with him.. He is now whining in the jail about his hernia