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Has Pak. been sidelined by the Indo-Afgh. Strategic Agreement?

you see, you didnt have much to say. Paksitan existed for 64 years, yes off course, and i pray that you exist forever, your disintegration is our worst nightmare. Yes, the issue in Afghanistan is sadly ethnicuty, that is why we are f.u.c.k.e.d big time. My only point for the last posts were, you need to be cleverer than what you are now. Dont just overemphasize on one group as your freind and give a false sense of security for yourself, things might not be the same on the ground what you have been thinking.

First of all, I'm not accepting this as an issue. My post in #163 was mainly hypothetical. Even if the Pathans in Afghanistan get the best legal experts in the world, they wouldn't be able to prove their points, because their points are baseless.

Asim had a thread about this issue, and Afghanistan's claim on KPK was successfully refuted. Afghanistan has no claim on KPK. Pakistan is right on KPK. KPK belongs to Pakistan and not to Afghanistan. I hope we are clear here.

Secondly, whatever happens in Afghanistan, their people needs to solve their problems. Nobody is going to come and solve your problems. This is an internal matter of Afghanistan! If the Taliban gets into power in Afghanistan, Pakistan isn't just going to sit there and do nothing. If the World and America accepts the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan, then Pakistan will deal with them according to just and moral principles. In other words Pakistan will be playing by the rules.


If Nothern Alliance becomes the next government in Afghanistan, and America and the world accepts them as the government of Afghanistan, then Pakistan will accept them and play according to the rules with them.

However there is no "real" government in Afghanistan as Afghanistan is right now in the middle of 2 wars, one Civil and one against America.

Pakistan will naturally do what is in her interests, just like what Afghanistan would do, or whatever faction in Afghanistan would do.

Ahmed bhai, we Pakistanis want to see Afghanistan succeed. How can SCO work without Afghanistan. Pakistan needs Afghanistan. Afghanistan needs Pakistan. We are interconnected. We need each other. Howeve,r Afghanistan is in the middle of 2 wars!
 
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Secondly, whatever happens in Afghanistan, their people needs to solve their problems. Nobody is going to come and solve your problems. This is an internal matter of Afghanistan! If the Taliban gets into power in Afghanistan, Pakistan isn't just going to sit there and do nothing. If the World and America accepts the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan, then Pakistan will deal with them according to just and moral principles. In other words Pakistan will be playing by the rules.

First of all, I'm not accepting this as an issue. My post in #163 was mainly hypothetical. Even if the Pathans in Afghanistan get the best legal experts in the world, they wouldn't be able to prove their points, because their points are baseless.
You are circling around it without trying to hit the real point. This is not about proof, right, wrong etc. It is about the blind ethno nationalism which can keep you sleepless, the same ethno nationalism which has destroyed us ad cost us our country.

Asim had a thread about this issue, and Afghanistan's claim on KPK was successfully refuted. Afghanistan has no claim on KPK. Pakistan is right on KPK. KPK belongs to Pakistan and not to Afghanistan. I hope we are clear here.
Pashtuns dont think so, right or wrong is something else.

If Nothern Alliance becomes the next government in Afghanistan, and America and the world accepts them as the government of Afghanistan, then Pakistan will accept them and play according to the rules with them.

the mujahideen gov was recognized by everbody, but pakistan recognized the taliban, so you didnt play by the rules, as you claim.
 
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Ahmed bhai, we Pakistanis want to see Afghanistan succeed. How can SCO work without Afghanistan. Pakistan needs Afghanistan. Afghanistan needs Pakistan. We are interconnected. We need each other. Howeve,r Afghanistan is in the middle of 2 wars!

I need to say thanks to this part of your post now.
 
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However Ahmed, Saudi Arabia, UAE also accepted the Taliban.
Afghanistan was and is still in the middle of a civil war.
 
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My point is that Afghanistan has not changed its policy towards Pakistan tangibly post Rabbani assassination, which is what your original post and thread title implied.

@Agno:
What do you think changed for Afghans and Pakistanis pre and post Rabbani assassination?


I would also like to see Ahmed's views on this.
 
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@Agno:
What do you think changed for Afghans and Pakistanis pre and post Rabbani assassination?


I would also like to see Ahmed's views on this.
For Pakistan, in terms of an impact on Afghan/US policies towards Pakistan, nothing really - we were excluded from the US/Afghan talks with the Taliban, and Pakistan has criticized that repeatedly over the last few months.

I am not aware of how successful Rabbani was in talking to the Taliban, and how advanced any talks on political reconciliation with the Taliban were, but if there was tangible progress being made, then both Afghanistan and Pakistan lose with his death since it is becoming increasingly obvious that the political reconciliation is the most feasible option on the table currently, given paucity of resources, policies and will to continue with intervening in Afghanistan in any meaningful manner, by pretty much every nation in the world.
 
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For those who feel that the Taliban are popular, why do you think that they don't agree to run as a political party and fight elections?

Is another civil war like the 1990s the only way? Does that not show their weakness and lack of popularity? The Afghans do want to elect their leaders and they showed this by coming out it he millions despite threats from the Taliban.

Just blowing up IEDs does not prove your popularity in the country. If that was the case, the TTP should be ruling Pakistan then.
 
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For those who feel that the Taliban are popular, why do you think that they don't agree to run as a political party and fight elections?

Is another civil war like the 1990s the only way? Does that not show their weakness and lack of popularity? The Afghans do want to elect their leaders and they showed this by coming out it he millions despite threats from the Taliban.

Just blowing up IEDs does not prove your popularity in the country. If that was the case, the TTP should be ruling Pakistan then.

I think the Taliban are viewed as presenting a defiant stand against the foreign occupation. To take part in elections would be an implicit endorsement of the original invasion. Ironically, it is NATO and the Afghan government's incompetence and brutality that is helping the Taliban.

Here's an article I posted elsewhere:
Torture common in Afghanistan, UN report finds. Can NATO trust local forces? - CSMonitor.com

Half of all detainees in Afghan intelligence service custody have been tortured, according to a new United Nations report [...]The investigation raises questions about the readiness of Afghan forces to take over security responsibility and amplifies fears that the torture could further fuel the insurgency. However NATO officials are unsure how to address the problem

Once NATO leaves, that's when the Taliban will need to present themselves as true leaders rather than just fighters.
 
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Taliban was and remains a terrorist primitive medieval extremist militia.

Zero chances of any "leadership" from it. It will be more of the same.

The perfect can't be bettered. They would see no need to change.
 
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Disclaimers by President Karzai and Dr Manmohan Singh, or Pakistan Foreign Office’s feeble attempt to downplay it notwithstanding, the Strategic Partnership agreement signed by Afghanistan and India last week signals a paradigm shift in the regional equation.

It allows India to position itself as a key player at the centre stage of the endgame in the war-torn country while the US and its Nato allies prepare for their planned exit by 2014. The timing, scope, content and accompanying statements are enough to ring alarm bells in the GHQ and Aabpara. This is the first such agreement Afghanistan has signed with any country, coming ahead of the one being negotiated by the US, apparently envisaging bases to maintain some forces even after withdrawal to protect its strategic and economic interests.

The message is unmistakably loud and clear. Army Chief Gen Kayani’s warning to Kabul against Afghan incursions and FO spokesperson’s condescending advice to President Karzai to demonstrate “maturity” and “responsibility” are indicative enough of the discomfort being felt here.

The moth-eaten concept of “strategic depth” was shred to tatters long ago. Here we see a serious jolt to the fanciful ideas that given its strategic proximity, military strength and historical or traditional links with a vast swathe of the Afghan populace for whom it has made huge sacrifices, Pakistan is favourably placed to fill the post-Isaf withdrawal power vacuum.

Instead, there is a new alignment of forces inimical to Pakistan’s long-term national interests and stakes; an increasingly disillusioned if not hostile US, the ever-antagonistic Northern Alliance, an emerging global power eager to assert it and Karzai at the centre make combustible combine to squeeze Pakistan in the great game.

The agreement contains an MoU on cooperation in the field mineral resource development; bilateral engagement in close political cooperation; Indian assistance in training; equipping and capacity building programmes for Afghan security forces and finally the commitment to strengthening trade and economic, scientific and technological cooperation.

All of these have, in one way or another, a bearing on the national and strategic interests of Pakistan in particular and China in general. Asif Zardari made a conscious effort to cultivate ties with Karzai amid frequent bilateral visits. He chose Karzai as the only foreign guest to attend his coronation ceremony as president on September 20, 2008. This was a sensible move displaying an uncharacteristic farsightedness. Most of it appears to have gone to waste as Karzai continues to make virulent statements – even after pronouncing Pakistan a “twin brother” – in the immediate flush of triumphant announcements in New Delhi.

The American stamp on the accord is unmistakable and stems from Hillary Clinton’s controversial statement in New Delhi urging India to play an enhanced role in the region, commensurate with its newly acquired economic and military prowess. The Indian premier minced no words while signing the accord with Karzai to let the world see a glimpse of what he was envisioning in the unfolding scenario. Twice he referred to the withdrawal year reaffirming India’s commitment to “stand by the people of Afghanistan as they prepare to assume the responsibility for their governance and security after the withdrawal of international forces in 2014.”

Karzai reportedly conveyed to Singh that the strategic engagement between the two countries, which includes a big Indian effort to build Afghanistan’s security capacities, will help prepare Kabul for the withdrawal of international forces. The Karzai visit creates more of a “natural window” for India to have a sustainable role in Afghanistan’s post-2014 era. In a more vicious vein, Karzai also made common cause with India against Pakistan on the terrorism issue when he obliquely repeated American accusations against the ISI by saying that his country recognises the dangers that this region faces “through terrorism and radicalism that is being used as an instrument of policy”.

For the most part of the last three decades, India has maintained a low-profile role in Afghanistan. But in the wake of 9/11 and the US invasion, India began a diffident entry with diplomatic expansion along Pakistan’s border amid repeated apprehensions that its consulates are fomenting insurgency in Balochistan. Pakistan grudgingly approved India’s economic assistance to Afghanistan but warned that any military presence would be unacceptable.

In deference to Pakistan which had facilitated their occupation of Afghanistan, the Americans initially did not encourage upfront Indian involvement and let it focus on “soft power” – economic aid and trade. But in time India committed the highest economic packages worth about two billion dollars to Afghanistan. The deal adds a new dimension to these economic relations and Singh even envisioned “Afghanistan’s economic integration with the Indian economy”. It envisages India’s push for huge oil and mining assets in Afghanistan, apparently excluding China which has been active on this count for long. Singh also hopes that both countries will try to operationalise their trilateral MoU signed with Iran to end Afghanistan’s landlocked isolation and dependence on Pakistan to reach the sea. The accord brightens India’s chances of bagging a lucrative mining contract for Hajigak, said to be the region’s largest untapped reserve of iron ore, and provides an opportunity to hunt for oil in northern Afghanistan.

The key element of the accord, Indian assistance to equip and train Afghan security forces, is what has perturbed Pakistan. A low-key training programme has been in place for some time in Indian academies. But the accord goes beyond that and means Indian boots in Afghanistan – and that is a lot more disconcerting for Pakistan. It is apparent that Obama wants to steadily outsource this task on which the US is spending $12 billion – that is increasingly becoming unsustainable and difficult to justify to the domestic electorate.

The accord is vague on this count but the intent is obvious. Karzai has stubbornly sat on Pakistan’s offer in this regard made two years ago by Gen Kayani when he declared in Kabul: “Strategically, we cannot have an Afghan army on my western border which has an Indian mindset. If we have an army trained by Pakistan, there will be better interaction on the western border. Our objective is that at the end of all this (Afghanistan), we should not be standing in the wrong corner of the room and should remain relevant in the region. This is our greatest challenge.”

The military establishment has to revamp its entrenched thinking and come up with a more innovative approach to stay relevant in the evolving landscape.



The writer is a senior journalist based in Islamabad. Email: mafzalkhan@ gmail.com
India in the endgame - Afzal Khan
 
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Training and equipping the Afghan forces is all very well. But I am not so sure about the Indian boots in Afghanistan part. Indian advisers in Afghanistan is one thing but deploying Indian combatants there will be a major policy shift. The domestic political environment has to be taken into account, major political parties have to be taken along. I do not think we wish to deploy in Afghanistan. The spirit of the Strategic Agreement if I understand it correctly, is to train and equip the Afghan armed forces including police so that they can take care of their own security and defence needs.
 
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Training and equipping the Afghan forces is all very well. But I am not so sure about the Indian boots in Afghanistan part. Indian advisers in Afghanistan is one thing but deploying Indian combatants there will be a major policy shift. The domestic political environment has to be taken into account, major political parties have to be taken along. I do not think we wish to deploy in Afghanistan. The spirit of the Strategic Agreement if I understand it correctly, is to train and equip the Afghan armed forces including police so that they can take care of their own security and defence needs.

I don't understand one thing here, there are parts of Afghanistan under Taliban control. Does this mean we will be training only those forces of the Govt which is internationally recognised?? What will be Taliban's stand on this, i guess they will not be happy with us. So what will be the resulting situation??
 
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Training and equipping the Afghan forces is all very well. But I am not so sure about the Indian boots in Afghanistan part. Indian advisers in Afghanistan is one thing but deploying Indian combatants there will be a major policy shift. The domestic political environment has to be taken into account, major political parties have to be taken along. I do not think we wish to deploy in Afghanistan. The spirit of the Strategic Agreement if I understand it correctly, is to train and equip the Afghan armed forces including police so that they can take care of their own security and defence needs.

Indian boots in Afghanistan means indian combat equipment used by afghan forces
 
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Is India winning?


Farrukh Saleem
Wednesday, October 12, 2011

ISLAMABAD: Of the 193 member-states of the UN how many support what Pakistan stands for? Can anyone name just three? What should be the goal of our foreign policy -make more friends or create new enemies?

In August, the Xinhua News Agency, the official press agency of the government of the People’s Republic of China, blamed Pakistan-based terror groups for the 2011 Kashgar attacks that left 22 dead and 42 injured. The government of Kashgar city claimed that terrorists “learned how to make explosives and firearms.....in Pakistan before entering Xinjian to organise terrorist activities.”

On September 30, the Wall Street Journal reported that “Kingho Group, one of China’s largest private coal miners ...backed out in August from a $19 billion deal in southern Sindh province because of concerns for its personnel...” This would have been the single largest foreign investment in Pakistan’s history.

On January 24, there was a suicide attack on Moscow’s Domodedovo International Airport that killed 37. The Telegraph reported that the “two suicide bombers who carried out the Moscow attack were thought to be part of a suicide squad trained in Pakistan’s al-Qaeda strongholds sent to the capital to target the city’s transport system.”


Of the 193 member-states of the UN, 42 are part of the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) headquartered in Kabul. Of these, Turkey, Malaysia, the UAE, Azerbaijan, Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Jordan are all Muslim-majority states, part of the OIC (Jordan has since withdrawn from ISAF).

In 2009, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad “called on Pakistan to arrest the attackers” who killed 42 Iranians in Sistan-Baluchistan (BBC). In 2010, Iran’s deputy police chief “accused Pakistan of providing a haven for members of an armed rebel group that has claimed responsibility for the deadly twin suicide bombings last week in front of a mosque in the south-eastern city of Zahedan (New York Times).”

On May 2, China, France, Russia, US and the UK, as members of the Security Council, issued a presidential statement, “welcoming end of Osama bin Laden”. India, Afghanistan and the United States are now forming a regional nexus to fight extremism while Pakistan’s All Parties Conference just passed a resolution calling to “initiate dialogue” with the same extremists.

Some 5 billion living in North and South America, EU, Russia, Japan, China, India, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa are now trying their best to harmonise their internal rules and regulations with globalised values. It’s like everyone in the world is moving towards collective security, mutually assured dependence, transparency and free trade while we, Pakistanis, continue to worship mutually assured destruction and isolation.

On November 24, 2008, the IMF rescued Pakistan under its Emergency Financing Mechanism. Pakistan, after taking in some $8 billion, failed to implement the promised fiscal disciplinary acts. On September 30, 2011, we finally sent in divorce papers. Pakistan is isolated like never before. With China in the north, India on the east and Iran and Afghanistan on the west which of our neighbour really supports Pakistan’s self-righteous direction? Isn’t India winning? Modern warfare, after all, is about diplomacy and isolating your opponent. India is becoming part of the 5 billion strong ‘global functioning core’ while the world regards us as a society where globalised values are not taking roots.

The global functioning core is calling us the ‘non-integrating gap’. We need to retreat from the course taken before us by North Korea and Burma. What we need is a new national security strategy. What we need is a new foreign policy paradigm.

The News, Pakistan

Is India winning? Comment
 
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Many inaccuracies in the article. Mr Farrukh Saleem needs to correct himself.
 
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