Has Defense Minister pulled off a coup in Rafale Offset Contract?

[fsayed]

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There has been reports of France offer to restart Kaveri Engine for Tejas 1A along with stealth, AESA radar and missile technology. If the reports are true. Then Defense Minister seem to have pulled off a coup in the Rafale offset deal to bring about a quantum leap in Technological advancements. Rafale aircraft though costliest among its peers, the offset clause providing investments and technology will save billions of dollars for India. Though India has been developing technologies slowly through DRDO, but these offers will speed up the development timeline and reduce the imports considerably.

Restarting the Kaveri Engine, will be a biggest boon for LCA Tejas. Safran has considerable experience in building jet engines (M88 for Rafale, M53 for Mirage and LEAP with GE) for more than 5 decades Rafale offset investment should produce two engine with 95KN for Tejas 1A and 110-120KN thrust for AMCA. 95KN thrust engine will negate the need for Tejas Mk2 and will be suitable for carrier operation. Any development of Tejas Mk2 should have the same engine as AMCA with thrust vectoring nozzle.

The cost of GE F414 engine was $4.44 million in 2013 and $5.36 million in 2016. The price quoted by GE for 99 F414 engines was $822 million in 2010. The contract stipulates initial batch supplied directly and remaining produced in India with ToT.

Tejas 1A/Mk2 is expected to replace 300 Migs of IAF along with 50 Tejas for Navy. Fighters require 3.5 engines throughout the life time without considering the extended lifespan. Overall Tejas need 1225 engines. In the case of twin engine AMCA, 200nos will correspond to 1300 engines. The numbers will go up if both IAF and Indian Navy choose 5th Gen AMCA than Tejas with longer combat radius and larger payload. All these doesn’t include the export potential of Tejas along with the Kaveri engines for UAVs.

With 2500 engine requirement, if Kaveri engine is priced atleast $2 million lesser than GE, India will save over $5 billion without considering the French investment. The inflation, foreign exchange volatility and other technological Investments (AESA radar, Missile Technology) will take the savings above the procurement cost of 36 Rafales. The technological leap and the jobs generated/ material sourced in India will push the worth of Kaveri development.

But India should be careful, since France have dragged the MRCA deal leading to its cancellation. The huge price escalation led to order reduced from 126 to 36 aircrafts without any ToT. France has promised to abide by MRCA tender but it has used every chance to divert the contract to its interest. This offset contract should not be used again by France to secure the Rafale deal but India should make France abide by the clauses of the contract without any loop holes through sovereign guarantee. The offset contract should stipulate the finished product with specific standards instead of the value of investment in developing the product.

http://idrw.org/defense-minister-pulled-off-coup-rafale-offset-contract/

 

[dadeechi]

Full credit goes to Manohar Parrikar

 

[Tshering22]

And then they say that the government isn't doing anything.

 

[SR-91]

Full credit goes to Manohar Parrikar

Not full yaar, it's was AJIT DOVAL that initiated this. It was Mr DOVAL that went to France to hold one- on-one talks. He's the man behind the scenes.

 

[volatile]

As per offset clause France has to put money back in Indian economy ,whats the point of congratulation ,infact France just again ripped you why no major Rafale tech will be shared with India ,AESA tech already India can get from Israel ,US ,Europe and KAveri Engine ,France already has too much input in this project .To summarize they out smart you guys by putting money one the projects in which they can again make more money . Height of chest thumping

 

[Alpha Fighter]

As per offset clause France has to put money back in Indian economy ,whats the point of congratulation ,infact France just again ripped you why no major Rafale tech will be shared with India ,AESA tech already India can get from Israel ,US ,Europe and KAveri Engine ,France already has too much input in this project .To summarize they out smart you guys by putting money one the projects in which they can again make more money . Height of chest thumping

when u start making these technology yourself at that time we will talk..... till that time yours is yours, We don't want to beg for F-16 like thing in future if conditions arises.

Plus only great power will make their own weapons , so now u can guess

 

[volatile]

when u start making these technology yourself at that time we will talk..... till that time yours is yours, We don't want to beg for F-16 like thing in future if conditions arises.

Plus only great power will make their own weapons , so now u can guess

Off topic ,stick to the argument and facts i have presented its not about PAF its about congratulation being distributed around the members on such a good job as per there understanding .I have just show you the real face of this deal

 

[Nilgiri]

,infact France just again ripped you why no major Rafale tech will be shared with India ,

Giving one sentence without any details and explanation is quite silly.

Do you even know the basic differences in various types of AESA radar? or aircraft production methods and materials? Its not a situation where one cloned technology exists out there. India must hedge performance, cost and local indigenisation capability.

A country that files 3000+ patents in the USPTO knows about this a lot more than you would imagine.

 

[volatile]

Giving one sentence without any details and explanation is quite silly.

Please see my older posts for explanation .

As per offset clause France has to put money back in Indian economy ,whats the point of congratulation ,infact France just again ripped you why no major Rafale tech will be shared with India ,AESA tech already India can get from Israel ,US ,Europe and KAveri Engine ,France already has too much input in this project .To summarize they out smart you guys by putting money one the projects in which they can again make more money . Height of chest thumping

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/has-defe...-rafale-offset-contract.439209/#ixzz4F20MJNaT

Do you even know the basic differences in various types of AESA radar? or aircraft production methods and materials? Its not a situation where one cloned technology exists out there. India must hedge performance, cost and local indigenisation capability.

No i dont other than modular working and how it works to be honest .Regarding cost ,indigestion India record is very poor weather its mirage upgrade deal ,MiG 29 is another example .

A country that files 3000+ patents in the USPTO knows about this a lot more than you would imagine.

Hello no of patents are one way of seeing it but quality and newer technology related patents are one way ,its not about numbers its about quality with impact to the society

 

[Nilgiri]

no major Rafale tech

Explain what you mean by this? You believe the production process, material compositions or anything else will not be given to India? Offsets for just these 36 will cover quite a lot of them...especially in the capex investment to acquire more Rafales in future.

AESA tech already India can get from Israel ,US ,Europe

There are different types of AESA tech and involve different amounts and stages of tech transfer. If you've read anything about the UTTAM AESA and the recent GaN developments you would understand where India is behind in the AESA field specifically and where French cooperation is useful. I have talked to one professional in the French Semiconductor industry (UMS) some years back about their advancements in GaN circuitry....they are in active development stage so its more useful for India to join such a collaboration when it is in this process rather than one that has matured in say Raytheon, US....since you do not gleam much simply by cloning a proven design in such technology.

If you want more details, you will first have to read up on just AESA extensively.

No i dont other than modular working and how it works to be honest .Regarding cost ,indigestion India record is very poor weather its mirage upgrade deal ,MiG 29 is another example .

You conveniently left out SU-30 MKI, older MiG families and Jaguar (limiting only to combat aircraft). Indigenisation success depends on how early and heavily you get involved in the production process. If its retrofitting and making spares which you did not invest in initially (relevant capital goods like tools and dies), yes their will be obstacles and high cost per output given the nature of the sole supplier market after you have acquired the systems.

Lessons were learned and incorporated into the MKI program especially which will now form the basis (with even more improvements) to the production methodology in India for future foreign designed systems+ joint ventures (not just aircraft).

So assuming there will be some regression in the Rafale program seems unfounded.

You can ask @PARIKRAMA , @Abingdonboy @Vergennes and @Taygibay about what they think about your assertion that Rafale will be complete segregated production for the 36 + future orders from India. Maybe they can explain it better than I can since my expertise is limited to jet engines mostly and that will take quite some time to explain to you in a ToT context....though I did post a summary (GE in that case) in another thread:

https://defence.pk/threads/iaf-to-take-final-call-on-amca’s-engine-drdo-chief.438008/page-2#post-8441976

 

[volatile]

Explain what you mean by this? You believe the production process, material compositions or anything else will not be given to India? Offsets for just these 36 will cover quite a lot of them...especially in the capex investment to acquire more Rafales in future.

NEW DELHI: France has offered to invest EUR 1 billion to revive India's combat jet engine project, proposing a joint development plan that could see the stalled 'Kaveri' gas turbine powering indigenous Tejas fighters by 2020.

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
https://thaimilitaryandasianregion....ent-offsets-to-india-for-rafale-fighter-sale/
Any thing else just see the links and see offset clause being offered by French .

There are different types of AESA tech and involve different amounts and stages of tech transfer. If you've read anything about the UTTAM AESA and the recent GaN developments you would understand where India is behind in the AESA field specifically and where French cooperation is useful. I have talked to one professional in the French Semiconductor industry (UMS) some years back about their advancements in GaN circuitry....they are in active development stage so its more useful for India to join such a collaboration when it is in this process rather than one that has matured in say Raytheon, US....since you do not gleam much simply by cloning a proven design in such technology.

If you want more details, you will first have to read up on just AESA extensively.

Im Sorry i cant go thru this minute details reason i will share is this is at the end of the day radar with some key performace attributes as per your discussion with French i can only say one thing In Europe there are other aero space and radar manufacturers as well like Italy ,Germany ,England ,Spain all have compatible products ,French have sophisticated systems second to only US but very expensive due to labour union system ,so this discussion will be baseless since more competitve systems are available with similar performance or little below but cost effective .

You conveniently left out SU-30 MKI, older MiG families and Jaguar (limiting only to combat aircraft). Indigenisation success depends on how early and heavily you get involved in the production process. If its retrofitting and making spares which you did not invest in initially (relevant capital goods like tools and dies), yes their will be obstacles and high cost per output given the nature of the sole supplier market after you have acquired the systems.

I dont want to troll but SU30 is not upgraded yet and we all know HAL performance in sub assembly infact big hurdle before announcing 100% FDI was HAL past reputation and performance guarantees .So when SU30 MKI will be super sukhoi we will see .MIG upgrade has history of its bad deals latest being MIg29 UB with critical parts and contract liabilities not meant so all of the deal is in question mark .

 

[Nilgiri]

NEW DELHI: France has offered to invest EUR 1 billion to revive India's combat jet engine project, proposing a joint development plan that could see the stalled 'Kaveri' gas turbine powering indigenous Tejas fighters by 2020.

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
https://thaimilitaryandasianregion....ent-offsets-to-india-for-rafale-fighter-sale/
Any thing else just see the links and see offset clause being offered by French .

What is difficult to understand here? How does 1.1 billion investment cover the whole offset amount? Do you have some breakup of every detail of every offset...something that is still being negotiated under wraps right now?

,French have sophisticated systems second to only US but very expensive due to labour union system ,so this discussion will be baseless since more competitve systems are available with similar performance or little below but cost effective .

We don't want off the shelf systems or simple cloning of a ready made product. AESA is critical enough that it merits joint engineering and technical development from where India currently stands helped along by where France currently is + the necessary exchange of money/credits/goodwill etc. to get technology both want in the long run.

Its not the first time its been done between the two countries. Look up the development of the Viking/Vikas engine for PSLV..

I don't understand where French labour costs come into play here, any system that results will be made inside India with Indian labour costs.

French scientists, researchers and engineers I can personally tell you are very top notch quality people to work with, we will actually probably save in co-development costs....India and France will be picking up where they left things in say the Viking program and nuclear reactor design.

I dont want to troll but SU30 is not upgraded yet and we all know HAL performance in sub assembly infact big hurdle before announcing 100% FDI was HAL past reputation and performance guarantees .So when SU30 MKI will be super sukhoi we will see .MIG upgrade has history of its bad deals latest being MIg29 UB with critical parts and contract liabilities not meant so all of the deal is in question mark .

I'm not talking about upgrades, I'm talking about line production of combat aircraft. The MKI is the first of the new generation of aircraft that India has made from scratch domestically....and successfully. Why would Rafale suddenly be any different with the experience gleamed from the MKI and previous production lines?

 

[volatile]

What is difficult to understand here? How does 1.1 billion investment cover the whole offset amount? Do you have some breakup of every detail of every offset...something that is still being negotiated under wraps right now?

Wait and more details follows as i have read the investment will cover ,Kaveri ,EW suite and critical components for LCA .

We don't want off the shelf systems or simple cloning of a ready made product. AESA is critical enough that it merits joint engineering and technical development from where India currently stands helped along by where France currently is + the necessary exchange of money/credits/goodwill etc. to get technology both want in the long run.

Its not the first time its been done between the two countries. Look up the development of the Viking/Vikas engine for PSLV..

I don't understand where French labour costs come into play here, any system that results will be made inside India with Indian labour costs.

French scientists, researchers and engineers I can personally tell you are very top notch quality people to work with, we will actually probably save in co-development costs....India and France will be picking up where they left things in say the Viking program and nuclear reactor design.

I cant comment of IAF wish list ,Im refering to the analogy ,dont invent the wheel again.

I'm not talking about upgrades, I'm talking about line production of combat aircraft. The MKI is the first of the new generation of aircraft that India has made from scratch domestically....and successfully. Why would Rafale suddenly be any different with the experience gleamed from the MKI and previous production lines?

Please go thru history MKI tyres were even coming from Russia at one time.

No, Su-30 is not completely made in India.

Several parts & components are from Russia & other countries. For instance, the engines, some avionics (like IRST, Radar, etc.), parts of airframe (alloys - Titanium), etc. - they come from Russia. Some avionics like the HUD, ECMs, Targeting pods, etc. come from Israel.

Similar case with spare parts, they are related to Russia. The exact percentage of indigenous content is not known but majority of all important components are imported and it’s difficult to say because the contract makes India purchase a lot of raw materials directly from Russia.
https://www.quora.com/Is-Su-30-MKI-completely-produced-by-HAL-in-India
An interesting read

 

[Nilgiri]

Wait and more details follows as i have read the investment will cover ,Kaveri ,EW suite and critical components for LCA .

Looking forward to all your sources.

I cant comment of IAF wish list ,Im refering to the analogy ,dont invent the wheel again.

It may make sense for Pakistan to simply import. India prefers to co-develop where necessary using its RnD personnel and friendly countries and then indigenise and produce locally to benefit from the economies of scale and genuine knowhow.

I mean should we have told ISRO that theres no point in reinventing the wheel? Is this what you guys told SUPARCO? Look at the difference in achievements today.

Please go thru history MKI tyres were even coming from Russia at one time.

No, Su-30 is not completely made in India.

Several parts & components are from Russia & other countries. For instance, the engines, some avionics (like IRST, Radar, etc.), parts of airframe (alloys - Titanium), etc. - they come from Russia. Some avionics like the HUD, ECMs, Targeting pods, etc. come from Israel.

Similar case with spare parts, they are related to Russia. The exact percentage of indigenous content is not known but majority of all important components are imported and it’s difficult to say because the contract makes India purchase a lot of raw materials directly from Russia.
https://www.quora.com/Is-Su-30-MKI-completely-produced-by-HAL-in-India
An interesting read

When I said made from scratch, I meant main structure wise + main manufacturing + assembly...and referring to the locally built batch of 140. Of course the engine was sourced from Russia along with a few other components from various countries....mostly licensed. You are seriously going to quote some person on Quora? Specific titanium alloys were produced and ordered in bulk by Russia so it made sense to import these raw bulk materials cheaply rather than source from elsewhere (and it was probably written into the original contract as a sort of offset for Russia if you will)....but the main cost comes in their fabrication and assembly (main value addition) which was done in India.

@Water Car Engineer and others probably know more details about it than me.

 

[Indrajith]

Dear ... Your comments give insight ... just my query ... perfecting Kaveri is a major thing we are looking forward .. which inturn can save us a lot of money ... even if France is taking us for a ride .... no other engine mfg has given us this option with a time line