Haryana discovery that promises to challenge our ancient history

[Levina]

Wow.. may be I am reading too much, but it resembles devanagari script's "Shri" and hymes start either with om or double shree (shri shri)...

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Shree???
As in this

Could you explain what you meant? I've a very poor imagination.
I found that symbol in Michel danino's book where he had explained how Sindhu-saraswati civilisation still survives in India (The Lost river: On trail of saraswati).

@anonymus May be you could also add to this discussion. Do you recognise this?

 

[MilSpec]

FRAUD ALERT !



This just shows the desperation by Gangalanders that they are having collective hallucigenic orgies.

apt language!

 

[SamantK]

I see many Pakistanis shaken by the discovery of the biggest city of Sindhu-saraswati civilization in India.

Another claim slipping away from thier hands

 

[Bang Galore]

Non-Aryan??
So you believe Aryans were the ones to spread the sindhu-saraswati civilisation eastwards?? Did I read it right??

I said no such thing, only said that there is no evidence to support that assertion.

Or are you saying that "Dravidans" were not related to SSC*??
SSC*- sindhu-saraswati civilisation

Again only that there is no evidence supporting such a hypothesis.

Well my point was, there's enough evidence down south to prove that inhabitants of SSC* cities had migrated eastwards and southwards.
View attachment 218876

You recognize these patterns, dont you??
These patterns 're commonly used by the woman down south to make kolams outside their houses.

That's a bit of a leap, there were swastika like symbols everyone, won't be able to support an assertion of people having moved. Symbols might well make that transition themselves.

Yes!
But how does that prove there was no migration eastwards???

They would then have to go through the "Aryans" who were already well established in the east if you accept the premise that they existed there. There is again no evidence that such a thing happened..

Recent studies 've increasingly stressed the continuity of Indian civilization from Harappan times in every aspect of life. There is very clear evidence of migration eastwards, like
1) Harappans loved both mathematics and standardization; for example, the common brick sizes followed a ratio of 1:2:4, which was often found in proportions of rooms, houses, some public buildings. Curiously much of this science and technology survived the urban collapse and resurfaced in the Gangetic cities a thousand years later.
2) Another example that I would like to quote is of the similarities between the cities Kampilya(in UP) and Dholavira (in Gujarat). Their town planning was exactly the same but the only difference was that Kampilya came 2000 yrs after Dholavira.
This once again proves that the inhabitants of SSC migrated eastwards.

That doesn't prove anything, that kind of a gap is way too large to draw a connection.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Well you guys 're right!
Current archaeological data do not support the existence of an Indo-Aryan or European invasion into South Asia any time in the pre- or protohistoric periods. There's not the slightest trace of it on the ground, and it is unthinkable that the supposed Aryans could have conquered most of India and imposed on it their Vedic culture without leaving any physical evidence of any sort. Biological anthropologists remain unable to lend support to any of the theories concerning an Aryan biological or demographic entity and let me confirm " All prehistoric human remains recovered so far from the Indian subcontinent are phenotypically identifiable as ancient South Asians". @ghoul The proud Indo-Aryan!! This one's for you.

But why did I talk of AMT (aryan migration theory)??
Well there is a stage,somewhere around 900BC, in Sindhu-Saraswati civilisation which happened after a period of desertion, a time period which is usually associated with decline of SSC*. The newcomers who had migrated to these cities had no knowledge of metallurgy, their houses were not built in conformity to any plan and their tools were primitive (when compared to inhabitants of cities of SSC*). These ppl I assume were the shepherd Aryans. Completely my assumption!!!
But am not lying about the desertion period and the "newcomers".
SSC*- Sindhu-Saraswati civilisation

But then archaeologists and anthropologists now reject the old notion of race altogether. To quote from Possehl's book:
“Race as it was used in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries has been totally discredited as a useful concept in human biology. [. ..] There is no reason to believe today that there ever was an Aryan race that spoke Indo-European languages and was possessed with a coherent and well-defined set of Aryan or Indo-European cultural features.”

Non-Aryan??
So you believe Aryans were the ones to spread the sindhu-saraswati civilisation eastwards?? Did I read it right??

Or are you saying that "Dravidans" were not related to SSC*??
SSC*- sindhu-saraswati civilisation

Well my point was, there's enough evidence down south to prove that inhabitants of SSC* cities had migrated eastwards and southwards.
View attachment 218876

You recognize these patterns, dont you??
These patterns 're commonly used by the woman down south to make kolams outside their houses.



Yes!
But how does that prove there was no migration eastwards???
Recent studies 've increasingly stressed the continuity of Indian civilization from Harappan times in every aspect of life. There is very clear evidence of migration eastwards, like
1) Harappans loved both mathematics and standardization; for example, the common brick sizes followed a ratio of 1:2:4, which was often found in proportions of rooms, houses, some public buildings. Curiously much of this science and technology survived the urban collapse and resurfaced in the Gangetic cities a thousand years later.
2) Another example that I would like to quote is of the similarities between the cities Kampilya(in UP) and Dholavira (in Gujarat). Their town planning was exactly the same but the only difference was that Kampilya came 2000 yrs after Dholavira.
This once again proves that the inhabitants of SSC migrated eastwards.



I read it somewhere that Brahui was the mother of 7000yr old Dravidan languages. I will 've to find the link though (I hope it was not a Pakistani site.Lol )

I don't mind anything. The past is past. I personally don't think Aryans were some race. But I am cool with proved right/wrong. It won't change my identity.

On topic - A friend of mine was in this dig. She is a newbie but it feels good to have someone at the site.

 

[Srinivas]

Aryan invasion is a fraud theory.

No where in the world people use "OM"

No where in the world people meditate in padmasana

No where in the world we find sanskrit literature

No where in the world we find the concept of Rishis

No where in the world we find values and philosophy that makes Dharma as the basis.


Migrations might have happened but the Culture, Vedas and the Philosophy is indigenous.

It is the ancestors of people of India a mixed race who called themselves aryans civilized people.

Harappa and Mohenjadaro are two cities of total civilization.

 

[anonymus]

Btw you made it sound like AIT and not AMT. Grr!

Example of Brahui is same as that of Basque language. A language in remote , tribal, and unsuitable for Agriculture area that remained untouched by migration and subsequent change in linguistic and genetics.

AMT was pretty much validated when Indo-Aryan superstate in mittani was discovered.

Indo-Aryan superstrate in Mitanni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Okay Mr.Anony... now dont test my history.
I know that somewhere in the iron age ppl started to spread from north to south, i'm not suggesting that south was an empty place before they appeared. Afaik since last 17000yrs there has been continuous human habitation in this part of the world. Interestingly not many have attacked this place (trust me it must be the temperature down south which repelled all the attackers @SarthakGanguly isnt it??? )
But..... I also know that the first Tami-Brahmi script appeared during the neolithic age (

)
View attachment 218815

Okay I know kerala has no claim to all this.

I think you have fallen for age old wikipedia trick where Wikipedia posters "embellishing facts" due to chauvnistic reasons and fool innocent surfers.

This is the page from which you got that info: History of Tamil Nadu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you check the reference provided for that assertion , you would fins that it does not talk about origin of Tamil-Brahmi in 800BCE (2800 Years ago). Had that been true, it would have been a discovery as profound as discovery of Sindu-Saraswati civilization, because it would have made Tamil-Brahmi one of the oldest alphabetic language in history. The article states that the inscription "may be" from 500-300BCE era (note 500BCE is upper limit). This range is because Pottery and Thermolunisence dating does give slightly less accurate dates than organic radio carbon dating. This pottery could be from pre-Ashokan , or Post Ashokan period.

This is the source article: The Hindu : National : `Rudimentary Tamil-Brahmi script' unearthed at Adichanallur

Another similar article : Palani excavation triggers fresh debate - The Hindu

Two Wikipedia entries which are more accurate: Brahmi script - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Tamil-Brahmi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is place where these discoveries were made:Adichanallur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Barring a revolutionary discovery, Brahmi was either a ingenious adaptation of Aramic, or independent invention of Jain monks.

Brahmi script around 300BCE

Development of Devnagri

Branching out of Brahmi script
​

You must understand that writing is very recent phenomenon. Oldest inscriptions found in India are those of Ashoka, though there is a historical consensus that writing has existed in India for quite sometime before that as people do not graduate to writing long winded philosophical work overnight after developing the script.

Also another point that should be noted is that the first phonetic/alphabetic script itself made appearance around 900 BCE . Before that writing and speaking were detached (imagine Sketching).

Most of our ancient works (Vedas, Upanishads, Ramayana, and Mahabharata ) were transmitted orally. They were written in second half of first millennium BCE.

 

[anonymus]

Shree???
As in this
View attachment 218888

Could you explain what you meant? I've a very poor imagination.
I found that symbol in Michel danino's book where he had explained how Sindhu-saraswati civilisation still survives in India (The Lost river: On trail of saraswati).

@anonymus May be you could also add to this discussion. Do you recognise this?

I don't recognize it, and one should not give much credence to some symbols from Mohanjodero making appearance in Rashtrakuta inscriptions.


While Sindhu-Saraswati civilization has its own script, it has not been deciphered and we do not even know its type with 100% certainity, though there is near absolute probability that it is an ideographic script. They are similar to Egyptian Hieroglyphs.The Hieroglyphs were no alphabetic, but ideographic.The alphabet was invented in Phoenicia (Levant) essentially from the clash of the Egyptian & Sumerian scripts.


The difference between Alphabetic and ideographic scripts is that : In Alphabetic script letters represent phonemes (basic sounds) ,and consist of Vowels (Sound pronounced with an open vocal tract so that there is no build-up of air pressure at any point above the glottis.) and consonants (Sound articulated with complete or partial closure of the vocal tract); while In ideographic , a letter represent an idea or concept.

In ideographic script, writing is divested from pronunciation, the people living in Indus-Saraswati civilization may have been speaking proto-Tamil , but we would never be able to know it.

Example of Egyptian hieroglyphs

​

An example of Indus script:

Example of another undechipered script: Minonian Linear A

Phoenician script (first alphabetic script)

​

This a quote from mit.edu

"Now the Phoenicians who came with Cadmus, and to whom the Gephyraei belonged, introduced into Greece upon their arrival a great variety of arts, among the rest that of writing, whereof the Greeks till then had, as I think, been ignorant. And originally they shaped their letters exactly like all the other Phoenicians, but afterwards, in course
of time, they changed by degrees their language, and together with it the form likewise of their characters. Now the Greeks who dwelt about those parts at that time were chiefly the Ionians. The Phoenician letters were accordingly adopted by them, but with some variation in the shape of a few, and so they arrived at the present use, still
calling the letters Phoenician, as justice required, after the name of those who were the first to introduce them into Greece. Paper rolls also were called from of old "parchments" by the Ionians, because formerly when paper was scarce they used, instead, the skins of sheep and goats- on which material many of the barbarians are even now wont
to write.

I myself saw Cadmeian characters engraved upon some tripods in the temple of Apollo Ismenias in Boeotian Thebes, most of them shaped like the Ionian. One of the tripods has the inscription following:-


Me did Amphitryon place, from the far Teleboans coming. "

http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.mb.txt

A useful podcast on development of language:

BBC Radio 4 - In Our Time, The Written World, Episode 1

I don't mind anything. The past is past. I personally don't think Aryans were some race. But I am cool with proved right/wrong. It won't change my identity.

On topic - A friend of mine was in this dig. She is a newbie but it feels good to have someone at the site.

It is a linguistic group, but had strong racial character due its steppe origin which is predominantly Caucasoid.

 

[ghoul]

Brahui people were residing in cut off area and they spoke Dravidian language as Aryan wave skipped their area. Presence of these kind of pockets actually strengthens AMT.

Similar thing happened with Hinduism in Afghanistan. Nuristan, which was a cut off area in Afghanistan, was Hindu even 100 years ago. It escaped Islamic conquest because it was cut off from even Afghanistan.

Nuristan Province - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@SpArK Do visit this thread too. The myth of Prithviraj Raso, and an account of Ghurid invasion.

I forgot to quote you and @SamantK in that thread.

Nuristani weren't following "hinduism" and singing om jay jagdish in front of a statue. They were most likely nature worshippers like the modern day Kalaash people of Pakistan are. Lol, another Indian trying to link himself to light skinned foreigners. Indians linking themselves with foreigners is a very common thing.

 

[anonymus]

Nuristani weren't following "hinduism" and singing om jay jagdish in front of a statue. They were most likely nature worshippers like the modern day Kalaash people of Pakistan are. Lol, another Indian trying to link himself to light skinned foreigners. Indians linking themselves with foreigners is a very common thing.

Contrary to your "Book" religion, Hinduism has great diversity. Nature worship is part of Hinduism. Every Scholar has claimed that Nuristani were Hindus.

"Pre-Islâmic Religion: Before their conversion to Islâm the Nuristânis practiced a form of ancient Hinduism, infused with accretions developed locally. They acknowledged a number of human-like deities who lived in the unseen Deity World (Kâmviri d'e lu; cf. Sanskrit deva lok'a-). Certain deities were revered only in one community or tribe, but one was universally revered as the Creator: the ancient Hindu god Yama Râja, called imr'o in Kâmviri. The deities guided peoples' destinies and could be influenced through sacrifice, prayer, and dance. Supplicants communicated with the deities through shamans, who would go into a trance after the area was purified with juniper smoke to invite the deities' presence. Such communication often resulted in the disclosure of a transgression of purity against a diety, who demanded a sacrifice of livestock in appeasement."

Probably your eyes are failing you, but Yamraj is a "Hindu god".

Richard Strand's Nuristân Site: Peoples and Languages of Nuristan


And I do not understand Pakistanis fascination with fair skin.You people delude yourself that fair skin is some sort of positive. Half of North-India and whole of North-East is fair than you low caste converts, so stop deluding yourself on that mythical account too.

 

[ghoul]

And this study is a joke. Historians throughout the world do not believe Indian archaeology, which is usually inspired by myths and stuff. Renaming Ghaggar Hakra as Saraswati is also not accepted by the international archaeological community. Saraswati's identity is mythical, and candidates also include kabul river and Amu darya. But why do I care, the world doesn't trust a bania's word and you'll never find mentions of Saraswati in any historical book on Indian subcontinent. These baniyas would go to any length to prove their point, if that includes even making false artifacts and stuff. No wonder they claimed to have deciphered Indus script as far back as 60s, which made the whole world laugh.

And when you are going for a historical excavation, you don't go with preconceived notions like "I'll prove IVC started in India". You find results first, and then discuss evidence hoping for a scientific consensus. But then again, India is a corrupt and poor country, how can you expect any sense from them?

And this study is by a team from Deccan College Postgraduate and Research Institute, Pune. If the studies were conducted by a team from a western university like Harvard, no one would doubt it. But Deccan institute? Lol give me a break.

 

[anonymus]

And this study is a joke. Historians throughout the world do not believe Indian archaeology, which is usually inspired by myths and stuff. Renaming Ghaggar Hakra as Saraswati is also not accepted by the international archaeological community. Saraswati's identity is mythical, and candidates also include kabul river and Amu darya. But why do I care, the world doesn't trust a bania's word and you'll never find mentions of Saraswati in any historical book on Indian subcontinent. These baniyas would go to any length to prove their point, if that includes even making false artifacts and stuff. No wonder they claimed to have deciphered Indus script as far back as 60s, which made the whole world laugh.

And when you are going for a historical excavation, you don't go with preconceived notions like "I'll prove IVC started in India". You find results first, and then discuss evidence hoping for a scientific consensus. But then again, India is a corrupt and poor country, how can you expect any sense from them?

And this study is by a team from Deccan College Postgraduate and Research Institute, Pune. If the studies were conducted by a team from a western university like Harvard, no one would doubt it. But Deccan institute? Lol give me a break.

ASI has very good reputation among its peers.None of Pseudo-Historians is part of ASI. Views of Pakistanis never count anywhere.

UNESCO is placing Rakhigarhi on World Heritage list. CHOKE ON THAT!!

http://www.unesco.org/new/fileadmin/MULTIMEDIA/FIELD/New_Delhi/images/Pioneer.pdf

 

[ghoul]

Contrary to your "Book" religion, Hinduism has great diversity. Nature worship is part of Hinduism. Every Scholar has claimed that Nuristani were Hindus.

"Pre-Islâmic Religion: Before their conversion to Islâm the Nuristânis practiced a form of ancient Hinduism, infused with accretions developed locally. They acknowledged a number of human-like deities who lived in the unseen Deity World (Kâmviri d'e lu; cf. Sanskrit deva lok'a-). Certain deities were revered only in one community or tribe, but one was universally revered as the Creator: the ancient Hindu god Yama Râja, called imr'o in Kâmviri. The deities guided peoples' destinies and could be influenced through sacrifice, prayer, and dance. Supplicants communicated with the deities through shamans, who would go into a trance after the area was purified with juniper smoke to invite the deities' presence. Such communication often resulted in the disclosure of a transgression of purity against a diety, who demanded a sacrifice of livestock in appeasement."

Probably your eyes are failing you, but Yamraj is a "Hindu god".

Richard Strand's Nuristân Site: Peoples and Languages of Nuristan


And I do not understand Pakistanis fascination with fair skin.You people delude yourself that fair skin is some sort of positive. Half of North-India and whole of North-East is fair than you low caste converts, so stop deluding yourself on that mythical account too.

Lol @ "ancient form of hinduism". Even the account clearly describe them as shamanistic, following some form of indo-european religion. They probably followed the same religion as Kalaash, who are definitely not bhagvad gita reading, Ganga bathing hindus. Someone was right here; these Indians will claim everything and anything. Lol.

It's Indians who are obsessed with skin colour and hate their own selves, and always seeking a connection with foreigners like the Brahuis of Balochistan and Afghans etc.

ASI has very good reputation among its peers.None of Pseudo-Historians is part of ASI. Views of Pakistanis never count anywhere.

UNESCO is placing Rakhigarhi on World Heritage list. CHOKE ON THAT!!

http://www.unesco.org/new/fileadmin/MULTIMEDIA/FIELD/New_Delhi/images/Pioneer.pdf

Read the word LIKELY in it. UNESCO doesn't believe crappy hindutva science of flying virmanas and ancient atomic bombs. It would seek confirmation from international teams first. And right now, I have major doubts that Rakhigarhi is an IVC site.

 

[anonymus]

Lol @ "ancient form of hinduism". Even the account clearly describe them as shamanistic, following some form of indo-european religion. They probably followed the same religion as Kalaash, who are definitely not bhagvad gita reading, Ganga bathing hindus. Someone was right here; these Indians will claim everything and anything. Lol.

It's Indians who are obsessed with skin colour and hate their own selves, and always seeking a connection with foreigners like the Brahuis of Balochistan and Afghans etc.

Looks like you think of Hinduism like your narrow book religion. Fact that they do not read Bhagvat Gita only means that they are not Vaishnavas. Shamanic tradition form part of Hinduism.

Yamraj is a proper Hindu god. Nuff said................

Yama - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


And don't project you inferiority complex onto others. You, like all Pakistanis, try to trace your lineage to some concubine of Arab or Persian solider, hence are obsessed by skin colour. It was you who brought skin colour into debate. I have only mentioned religion of Nuristanis which put your arse on fire. It is a historical fact that Hinduism extended from Afghanistan to Indonesia in Past.

 

[ghoul]

Looks like you think of Hinduism like your narrow book religion. Fact that they do not read Bhagvat Gita only means that they are not Vaishnavas. Shamanic tradition form part of Hinduism.

Yamraj is a proper Hindu god. Nuff said................

Yama - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read your own citation. The god was called "Imro". Nuristanis and Kalaash have nothing to do with hinduism. The are thought to follow an indo-iranian pagan religion. What's next? Ancient Persians were also hindus?