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Hanwha’s Chairman to Visit Vietnam

Club of Rich Country?

I dont see Vietnam flag here

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Well while Tpp brings prestige, investments and exports, G20 is a worthless gathering that costs tax payers money. Either way, in case you haven’t noticed: Vietnam was invited to both G7 and G20 summits this year in Canada and Germany.

As the G20, the Germans especially hate the gathering. You should have observed the riots in Hamburg. Street scenes like the Wehrmacht storming Stalingrad.

upload_2018-11-27_19-32-6.jpeg
 
LOL, this thread..... :pop:

I just read Euro 5 vs Euro 6. and there is no different for Euro 5 and Euro 6 cars using Petrol. Only different for car/truck using diesel fuel ( refuce Nox from 0,18 to 0,8 and need better SCR/aftertreament system). so Vinfast using BMW N20 engine wt Euro 5 standar pass Euro 6 cos it use petrol.

So now, u should know that when we need some engines,then VN will buy the license from German. SK engines r far worse than German/JP ones, even S-korean also admit it.

Nice bro :cool:
 
Small country like Singapore try to talk big

A nation that doesnt have an aerospace company who can build a simple aircraft under its name is acting arrogance. Singapore also imported rocket from Western company instead of manufacturing it like Indonesia does.

When they still need water supply from Malaysia and gas supply from Indonesia they should rather shut up and act more grateful to both nation. I am happy that we stop our sand export since 2004 to Singapore. They will no longer able to add more land into their tiny island.

Singapore live under constant fear of being invaded by Indonesia thats why their defense budget is huge if we compare to their 323 billion GDP. When Indonesia raise its defense budget into 8 billion USD, they start to increase their defense budget greatly into 14 billion, almost a double increase from previous year (9 billion), it shows how fear Singapore is on Indonesia.

Singapore is likely to become more irrelevant and narrow if their airspace will be in our control. Their F 16 and F 15 need to get clearance first before flying. :D
“Small” Singapore has a Gdp of $323 billion. Imagine how much it’s GDP if it’s population has the size of Indonesia?

I just read Euro 5 vs Euro 6. and there is no different for Euro 5 and Euro 6 cars using Petrol. Only different for car/truck using diesel fuel ( refuce Nox from 0,18 to 0,8 and need better SCR/aftertreament system). so Vinfast using BMW N20 engine wt Euro 5 standar pass Euro 6 cos it use petrol.

So now, u should know that when we need some engines,then VN will buy the license from German. SK engines r far worse than German/JP ones, even S-korean also admit it.
Diesel has no future. Germany’s major cities here begin to forbid cars with euro 4 or lower. Later, euro 5 will be banned too. N20 is great. Vinfast should accelerate electric car production though.
 
“Small” Singapore has a Gdp of $323 billion. Imagine how much it’s GDP if it’s population has the size of Indonesia?
.

It is a city state, understandable, Jakarta GDP PPP is 483 billion USD which is near Singapore GDP PPP which is 527 billion USD. It doesnt necessary said that each 10 million of Indonesian people will have similar GDP with Jakarta. Singapore economy also rely heavily on Multinational company where MNCs account for more than two-thirds of manufacturing output and direct export sales.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indonesian_provinces_by_GRP_per_capita

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)
 
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It is a city state, understandable, Jakarta GDP PPP is 483 billion USD which is near Singapore GDP PPP which is 527 billion USD. It doesnt necessary said that each 10 million of Indonesian people will have similar GDP with Jakarta. Singapore economy also rely heavily on Multinational company where MNCs account for more than two-thirds of manufacturing output and direct export sales.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indonesian_provinces_by_GRP_per_capita

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)
Vietnam was held back by 4 wars after 1945, economic sanctions, mismanagement and Chinese artillery bombardment. Indonesia is only held back by incompetence. Surpassing Indonesia GDP is just a question of whether in 5 or 10 years.
 
Vietnam was held back by 4 wars after 1945, economic sanctions, mismanagement and Chinese artillery bombardment. Indonesia is only held back by incompetence. Surpassing Indonesia GDP is just a question of whether in 5 or 10 years.

As i said before, your steam had run out of place. Now your GDP growth is in between 6 percentage meanwhile your GDP is still at low base, and you are already passed your demographic dividen.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/new...-ticking-time-bomb-of-elderly-poverty-8758426

You are much worse than China, Korean and Japan. Getting old before striking rich.

Not to mention you are one of the most corrupt nation on earth made it worse
 
As i said before, your steam had run out of place. Now your GDP growth is in between 6 percentage meanwhile your GDP is still at low base, and you are already passed your demographic dividen.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/new...-ticking-time-bomb-of-elderly-poverty-8758426

You are much worse than China, Korean and Japan. Getting old before striking rich.

Not to mention you are one of the most corrupt nation on earth made it worse
Nonsense. Corruption is certainly an issue but that doesn’t hinder the inflow of money, investment and technology to come to Vietnam. Not 6, growth rate will reach 7 percent this year. Getting older has benefits though. That proves Vietnam life expectancy is rising. I agree Vietnam needs more babies.

How about return to topic?

Hanwha pours $400 million (hanwha techwin $100 million, hanwha engine $300 million) into plant construction. Another $500 million are on the pipeline. You should wish Vietnam luck because if Vietnam gets rich we will buy more stuffs from Indonesia.
 
Nonsense. Corruption is certainly an issue but that doesn’t hinder the inflow of money, investment and technology to come to Vietnam. Not 6, growth rate will reach 7 percent this year. Getting older has benefits though. That proves Vietnam life expectancy is rising. I agree Vietnam needs more babies.

How about return to topic?

Hanwha pours $400 million (hanwha techwin $100 million, hanwha engine $300 million) into plant construction. Another $500 million are on the pipeline. You should wish Vietnam luck because if Vietnam gets rich we will buy more stuffs from Indonesia.

Will and will you use lot of future tense lately heh
 
Small country like Singapore try to talk big

A nation that doesnt have an aerospace company who can build a simple aircraft under its name is acting arrogance. Singapore also imported rocket from Western company instead of manufacturing it like Indonesia does.

When they still need water supply from Malaysia and gas supply from Indonesia they should rather shut up and act more grateful to both nation. I am happy that we stop our sand export since 2004 to Singapore. They will no longer able to add more land into their tiny island.

Singapore live under constant fear of being invaded by Indonesia thats why their defense budget is huge if we compare to their 323 billion GDP. When Indonesia raise its defense budget into 8 billion USD, they start to increase their defense budget greatly into 14 billion, almost a double increase from previous year (9 billion), it shows how fear Singapore is on Indonesia.

Singapore is likely to become more irrelevant and narrow if their airspace will be in our control. Their F 16 and F 15 need to get clearance first before flying. :D


There is a difference between working with the best companies in the world and bankrupting yourself backing a useless company that makes simple turboprop plane aerostructures. Something North Korea can do better than you, might I add.

There is a difference between rationality and useless bravado.

Singapore has no fear of Indonesia, at the moment. That is because of Singapore's continued military superiority in the region.

GDP is a poor measure of economic clout or that matter, scientific and technological achievement.

Indonesia is the finest example.

Due to bigger population, your GDP is higher. But Australia has an even bigger GDP. Does that mean Australia can conquer Indonesia? If you say so.

A backward country can do very little in the modern era. That is the reality that people around the world has come to realize. That is the reason China pursues its Made in China 2025 strategy. GDP alone means little.

For your information, Singapore's current account surplus last year was ~US$60 billion. More than what Indonesia can dream of earning in a decade maybe? And have you heard of Sovereign Wealth Funds? Singapore's forex reserves alone are more than twice that of Indonesia.

In short, Singapore can spend US$30 billion a year in times of crisis without breaking a sweat. Can Indonesia do that too? Most importantly, can Indonesia develop any technology on its own? Why are Indonesia's high tech exports so low? Why can't Indonesia develop more high tech products and produce a lot of high quality papers in science, technology, engineering and mathematics?

In fact, Singapore is the first country in ASEAN with domestically developed satellites in space, with the ability to produce aero engines, to manufacture and design integrated circuits, equipment for the manufacture of integrated circuits, Landing Platform Docks, Infantry Fighting Vehicle, Self Propelled Howitzer, Guided Missiles, MMIC for RF purposes. With domestically designed, developed and tested spaceplane prototype. With domestically designed and developed flank array sonar, electro optical systems and a whole host of systems too numerous to mention.

Indonesia, meanwhile, remains a primitive country. Can budget or GDP alone compensate for that?

Jesus ****!ng christ just shut up.

The guy just take side with guys who think kidnapping german scientist is somehow a legitimate way of gaining technologies & thinks that just because a company opens up factory inside the country means they get the whole tech alongside with it. The same kinds of logic like if I rent out space for KFC means I'm entitled to their 11 herb & spices recipe & then have the galls to call someone else low "IQ" despite the vietnamese here fit more of that description.

I think that's punishment enough.

If you get to develop the herbs and spices for not only KFC but also Texas Chicken, Jollibee or what have you - frankly speaking, I am not that good with fast food brands - then you might have said so.

Because, quite obviously, then you would be developing the herbs and spices rather than just purchasing them off the shelves.

Dont mind those @Senang Diri he is verified idiot

He just calling Turks as primitive country at Turkish section, lmao and compared their achievement with Sinkies.



Well actually he is an idiot

Your post has been reported for personal insult.

We know IQ scores of Indonesians, Turks and other similar countries. We know your PISA scores, TIMSS scores, Maths Olympiad or Science Olympiad standings, publications of high quality papers in science, tech, engineering, or mathematics.

I don't recall comparing Singaporean achievements with Turkish. Maybe you can show me where I did that?

Nevertheless, it is true that Turkey is a primitive country with very little scientific or technological output. Most of their defence ''accomplishments''are misappropriations of foreign technology. I don't bother discussing with idiots, I have some free time today. Humoring 'em for just that.

It is a city state, understandable, Jakarta GDP PPP is 483 billion USD which is near Singapore GDP PPP which is 527 billion USD. It doesnt necessary said that each 10 million of Indonesian people will have similar GDP with Jakarta. Singapore economy also rely heavily on Multinational company where MNCs account for more than two-thirds of manufacturing output and direct export sales.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indonesian_provinces_by_GRP_per_capita

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)


Have some shame before blabbering like an ...

1. Jakarta is way poorer. Your source is Wikipedia! Who believes Wikipedia?

2. Indonesia has tremendous natural resources and plenty of energy, mineral and land. Yet, it is a dirt poor country. Jakarta is always stuck in traffic.

3. Price levels in Jakarta are higher than a village in Sumatra or Kalimantan. Therefore, your PPP estimates are not backed by any sound econometric method.

4. That is not true either. Because loads of Singaporean companies such as Venture Corp, Hi-P, SAM Aerospace, CEI, FA Systems, Sembcorp, Keppel, ST Engineering operate subsidiaries abroad.

Many multinational corporations operating in Singapore are former Singapore companies. Examples: Globalfoundries acquired Chartered Semiconductor of Singapore. IQE plc acquired MBE Technologies from Singapore. There are too many such companies to list. In the final analysis, a lot of high tech work is being done in Singapore and by Singaporean companies abroad.

5. You showed your IQ level by trusting Wikipedia.

As i said before, your steam had run out of place. Now your GDP growth is in between 6 percentage meanwhile your GDP is still at low base, and you are already passed your demographic dividen.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/new...-ticking-time-bomb-of-elderly-poverty-8758426

You are much worse than China, Korean and Japan. Getting old before striking rich.

Not to mention you are one of the most corrupt nation on earth made it worse

That is a Singaporean news outlet.

Tells you a lot that right after dissing Singapore you had to fall back on Singapore for information. Even simple information can not be delivered to your doorstep by your people.
 
There is a difference between working with the best companies in the world and bankrupting yourself backing a useless company that makes simple turboprop plane aerostructures. Something North Korea can do better than you, might I add.

There is a difference between rationality and useless bravado.

Singapore has no fear of Indonesia, at the moment. That is because of Singapore's continued military superiority in the region.

GDP is a poor measure of economic clout or that matter, scientific and technological achievement.

Indonesia is the finest example.

Due to bigger population, your GDP is higher. But Australia has an even bigger GDP. Does that mean Australia can conquer Indonesia? If you say so.

A backward country can do very little in the modern era. That is the reality that people around the world has come to realize. That is the reason China pursues its Made in China 2025 strategy. GDP alone means little.

For your information, Singapore's current account surplus last year was ~US$60 billion. More than what Indonesia can dream of earning in a decade maybe? And have you heard of Sovereign Wealth Funds? Singapore's forex reserves alone are more than twice that of Indonesia.

In short, Singapore can spend US$30 billion a year in times of crisis without breaking a sweat. Can Indonesia do that too? Most importantly, can Indonesia develop any technology on its own? Why are Indonesia's high tech exports so low? Why can't Indonesia develop more high tech products and produce a lot of high quality papers in science, technology, engineering and mathematics?

In fact, Singapore is the first country in ASEAN with domestically developed satellites in space, with the ability to produce aero engines, to manufacture and design integrated circuits, equipment for the manufacture of integrated circuits, Landing Platform Docks, Infantry Fighting Vehicle, Self Propelled Howitzer, Guided Missiles, MMIC elements. With domestically designed, developed and tested spaceplane prototype. With domestically designed and developed flank array sonar, electro optical systems and a whole host of systems too numerous to mention.

Indonesia, meanwhile, remains a primitive country. Can budget or GDP alone compensate for that?



If you get to develop the herbs and spices for not only KFC but also Texas Chicken, Jollibee or what have you - frankly speaking, I am not that good with fast food brands - then you might have said so.

Because, quite obviously, then you would be developing the herbs and spices rather than just purchasing them off the shelves.



Your post has been reported for personal insult.

We know IQ scores of Indonesians, Turks and other similar countries. We know your PISA scores, TIMSS scores, Maths Olympiad or Science Olympiad standings, publications of high quality papers in science, tech, engineering, or mathematics.

I don't recall comparing Singaporean achievements with Turkish. Maybe you can show me where I did that?

Nevertheless, it is true that Turkey is a primitive country with very little scientific or technological output. Most of their defence ''accomplishments''are misappropriations of foreign technology. I don't bother discussing with idiots, I have some free time today. Humoring 'em for just that.




Have some shame before blabbering like an ...

1. Jakarta is way poorer. Your source is Wikipedia! Who believes Wikipedia?

2. Indonesia has tremendous natural resources and plenty of energy, mineral and land. Yet, it is a dirt poor country. Jakarta is always stuck in traffic.

3. Price levels in Jakarta are higher than a village in Sumatra or Kalimantan. Therefore, your PPP estimates are not backed by any sound econometric method.

4. That is not true either. Because loads of Singaporean companies such as Venture Corp, Hi-P, SAM Aerospace, CEI, FA Systems, Sembcorp, Keppel, ST Engineering operate subsidiaries abroad.

Many multinational corporations operating in Singapore are former Singapore companies. Examples: Globalfoundries acquired Chartered Semiconductor of Singapore. IQE plc acquired MBE Technologies from Singapore. There are too many such companies to list. In the final analysis, a lot of high tech work is being done in Singapore and by Singaporean companies abroad.

5. You showed your IQ level by trusting Wikipedia.



That is a Singaporean news outlet.

Tells you a lot that right after dissing Singapore you had to fall back on Singapore for information. Even simple information can not be delivered to your doorstep by your people.

A country as little as Sinkies which just a mere red dot on our little map can only dwelve on as information broker and finance institution, with some assembly on high tech industry no more than that. SINKIES will never had complete chain of production units, you will never able to developt large steel industry producing all steel product needed by industry. You never had sufficient parts manufacturing industry needed for automotive, shipyard building and aeronautica industry. Starting from raw material until half processed units you still need it from other. Thats why you shouldnt be so smug, even before your larger neighbours.
 
A country as little as Sinkies which just a mere red dot on our little map can only dwelve on as information broker and finance institution, with some assembly on high tech industry no more than that. SINKIES will never had complete chain of production units, you will never able to developt large steel industry producing all steel product needed by industry. You never had sufficient parts manufacturing industry needed for automotive, shipyard building and aeronautica industry. Starting from raw material until half processed units you still need it from other. Thats why you shouldnt be so smug, even before your larger neighbours.

Primitive countries can never think beyond steel or car.

Hello, you should learn about the meaning of high technology first and foremost.

Might I add, Indonesians should not over estimate themselves. You are a false country, held together by brutal military power. One stroke at the fault lines and your cracks will be rendered wide open. You are an archipelago. You can never ensure security to all your islands at the same time in the face of a full on hypothetical Singaporean assault.

Assembly is the task designated for low income countries such as ... ASEAN countries with less than $20,000 per person in earnings.

I sometimes wonder what makes these illiterate people from some of the world's most backward countries feel that they are some big wigs?

Here, take a close look. China, a potential superpower, the world's most populous country works with Singapore in developing multiple planned cities for high tech sectors. A recent example is the Sino Singapore Guangzhou Knowledge City.

vt2GFVt.jpg


Edited: The image was not showing , had to re upload.
http://www.ssgkc.com/P04_01.asp

I really wonder what makes you personally want to shoot of your mouth in spite of inescapable evidence of proven Singaporean superiority in IQ, high tech production, development, R&D, high quality papers in science, technology, engineering, mathematics, military domain, forex reserves, current account surplus, PISA, TIMSS, IQ scores, Maths and Sciences Olympiads scores when you people can barely string two sentences together and find it hard to add two single digit numbers.

Now do tell us, when did China ever work with Indonesia, Turkey or any of the big mouth third world countries here on high tech projects or wanted to learn from the Indonesian or Turkish high tech (!) experience?

The question that should bother us all, and I am sure it does bother the more intellectually able members and lurkers alike, is how are you able to remain so confident in your inability in spite of the overwhelming evidence in front of you?
 
There is a difference between working with the best companies in the world and bankrupting yourself backing a useless company that makes simple turboprop plane aerostructures. Something North Korea can do better than you, might I add.

There is a difference between rationality and useless bravado.

Singapore has no fear of Indonesia, at the moment. That is because of Singapore's continued military superiority in the region.

GDP is a poor measure of economic clout or that matter, scientific and technological achievement.

Indonesia is the finest example.

.
Nice, seem like ID only can scare Sing when ID got nuke bomb...but that may never happen :laugh:

Beside that, VN got the right to enrich uranium on our soil, which mean VN can make nuke bomb in emergency case
------------
U.S. Vietnam nuclear talks focus on enrichment



Nonproliferation objectives get attention from Congress and China

The Wall Street Journal reports Aug 3 that US talks with Vietnam about its plans to build nuclear reactors has “unsettled“ key members of Congress. The Hindu, one of India’s largest newspapers, reports Aug 9 that China is annoyed by reports Vietnam might develop uranium enrichment capabilities with U.S. technology.

The WSJ report leads with news that the Obama administration is “in advanced negotiations to share nuclear fuel and technology... that would allow Hanoi to enrich its own uranium.”

It didn’t take long for a reaction in Congress. On Aug 6 the WSJ reports that Rep. Illeana Ros-Lehtinen (R-FL), the ranking Republican on the House Foreign Affairs Committee, said the negotiations are an example of a double standard when compared to the “hard line position” the US took in its 1-2-3 agreement with the United Arab Emirates.

The UAE promised not to develop its own uranium enrichment or spent fuel reprocessing capabilities in return for the right to import U.S. commercial nuclear energy technologies and components. So far the arrangement hasn’t done much for U.S. nuclear firms as last December the UAE awarded a $20 billion contract to South Korea to build four 1,400 MW reactors.

China reacts to US initiative

China, which considers Vietnam to be within its sphere of political influence due to their long common border, is not happy about the potential for US uranium enrichment technology being sold to its neighbor to the south.

In an interview with the Hindu newspaper, Zhai Dequan, (right) deputy secretary of the China Arms Control & Disarmament Association, criticized the US negotiations.

He called the negotiations with Vietnam a “double standard” in comparison to the UAE 1-2-3 agreement. He said China is “worried” about the potential for Vietnam having enrichment capabilities.

The Chinese state-controlled news media frequently rolls out statements by Dequan when it has something to say about nonproliferation issues. Also, the Times of India reports Aug 6 that China was “surprised” by reports the US plans to introduce enrichment technology in Southeast Asia. India is worried about China’s plans to sell nuclear reactors to Pakistan.

US State Department spokesman Philip Crowley was widely quoted by wire services as dismissing these concerns saying the decision to involve the US in Vietnam’s nuclear energy plans “don’t involve China.”

The WSJ reported that Vietnam denied it had any interest in plans to enrich uranium. Vuong Huu Tam, Director of the Vietnam Atomic Energy Institute, told the newspaper the county feels the issue is “too sensitive” to pursue.

All nonproliferation agreements are not the same

The WSJ reported that the State Department highlighted differences in its approach to nonproliferation issues in the Middle East and in Asia. The newspaper cited a senior government official who said the US is “setting a different standard for Hanoi” because it consider the proliferation risks in the Middle East to be much more serious.

“We believe the UAE agreement is a model for the region. These concerns do not specifically apply to Asia. We will take a different approach region by region and country by country.”

A leading nonproliferation expert questioned the wisdom of the US stirring up China on this issue. Henry Sokolski, (right) director of a Washington,DC, arms control think tank, told wire services, “Does it make sense to be peddling nuclear cooperation in a way to make and influence friends there ?”

He said the US would be “buying trouble” by selling enrichment technology to Vietnam.

What does seem clear is that the U.S. civilian nuclear renaissance is involved in a head-on collision with foggy bottom’s foreign policy objectives. It ain’t pretty.

Where would the US get enrichment technology to sell ?

There are two possible sources of uranium enrichment technology from US firms. The first is USEC’s American Centrifuge Facility being built in Piketon, OH. The facility is behind schedule with a revised application for a loan guarantee pending with the Department of Energy for the $2.8 billion plant.

GE-Hitachi is developing a laser enrichment plant in Wilmington, NC. However, the answer to the question of whether the technology will scale to a production facility from the test loop is still under wraps. The firm has said publically it will complete the NRC licensing process and have the plant under construction by 2012.

Nonproliferation experts have seized on the laser enrichment technology as a proliferation threat. In response, Tammy Orr, the CEO of the GE business unit, told the Global Security Newswire for Aug 2 the technology would have "detectable signatures" to prevent illegal use of the laser enrichment process. Neither GE nor USEC firm have said anything in their public marketing programs about exports or licensing of their respective technologies to other countries.

Areva’s planned Idaho Eagle Rock Enrichment Facility and Louisiana Energy Services New Mexico enrichment plant do not have the ability to export the enrichment technology they use in their facilities. The European supplier puts strict controls on the use of the centrifuges in these plants.

Does Vietnam need enrichment ?

In fact, for its first deal for new reactors, Vietnam doesn’t need uranium enrichment technology. The country earlier this year signed an agreement with Russia to buy several nuclear reactors. The Russians typically supply the finished fuel rods for their export reactors and also retrograde the spent fuel from customers.

Japan is planning a major push to export its nuclear reactor technology to Vietnam. The country has been training Vietnam’s nuclear engineers for years. The Financial Times reports Aug 10 that while Japan has tremendous capabilities in the nuclear energy field, getting organized to export its reactors to other countries will be a challenge for the “fragmented” industry. Still, Vietnam is close at hand for Japan which makes it an easy sales call.
https://www.sortirdunucleaire.org/U-S-Vietnam-nuclear-talks-focus-on
 

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Nice, seem like ID only can scare Sing when ID got nuke bomb...but that may never happen :laugh:

Beside that, VN got the right to enrich uranium on our soil, which mean VN can make nuke bomb in emergency case
------------
U.S. Vietnam nuclear talks focus on enrichment


Good luck with that.

I have my doubts over the Americans allowing Viet Nam to enrich uranium. They didn't allow Taiwanese nuclear weapons programme to blossom. I don't believe they will allow Viet Nam to enrich uranium. I may be wrong though. Let time be the judge.
 
Good luck with that.

I have my doubts over the Americans allowing Viet Nam to enrich uranium. They didn't allow Taiwanese nuclear weapons programme to blossom. I don't believe they will allow Viet Nam to enrich uranium. I may be wrong though. Let time be the judge.
Bro, just see if US allow Nkorea to enrich or not ?? Obviously NO.

VN is powerful enough to enrich uranium even when US doesnt allow cos we defeat US in 1975 while TW and other US's allies r just US's cow cash and never get the right to enrich.But VN just dont wanna get US's sanction again and the neighbours like Sing may not consider Vn as her good friend any more.:)
 
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