Hameed Gul on Wagah blast.

[pkuser2k12]

Of course, thats how the Zia administration convinced the naive Pakistanis, while taking econimic help from them in the eighties!

Ladies and Gentlemen, a big round of applause to the power of propaganda. Big cheers to creation of imaginary threats and enemies to further american interests in the region and for taking U.S. Aid! Under the guise of religion, even absurdly absurd things are more than acceptable to most people.

chalo ab kafi bs nikal li dil kii now relax karo ziada tension na lay jana ......

 

[Judge]

@Secur and @Oscar @Bang Galore

Since all of you respected members of this forum, and Secur your a TT as well.

Can I present a hypothetical scenario for you in which you are an Indian PM. I would like to hear your views of how India should tackle 'the Pakistan problem' ( ofcourse from an Indian POV). I would like to pick your brain on this issue.

Be ruthless in your assessment - use the true strengths and weaknesses of both India and Pakistan.

 

[root]

Hamid Gul is a true Patriot.If it was not due to him Pakistan would have been integrated into soviet Russia long time ago.I know you are getting emotional.But you should understand that India is funding all these terror group to destabilize Pakistan and with their new terrorist PM they have increased their terrorist activities inside Pakistan.Look at all the MODI interviews his mission is to wipe out Pakistan from earth.So show some respect to Sir Hamid Gul rather than becoming emotional.

 

[Judge]

Nothing at all is wrong with them. They are not national security threats and have no ill-design against our nation, nor have they broken any laws. They may not be YOUR ideals, but that doesnt figure into our priorities how you feel about them

You misunderstood me then.
I am fully aware that they dont have an ill design for Pakistan by intent or that they have broken any Pakistani laws.

 

[Sugarcane]

Ladies and Gentlemen, a big round of applause to the power of propaganda. Big cheers to creation of imaginary threats and enemies to further american interests in the region and for taking U.S. Aid! Under the guise of religion, even absurdly absurd things are more than acceptable to most people.

Highlighted part is not phenomena of 80s, it's quite old.

 

[Secur]

chalo ab kafi bs nikal li dil kii now relax karo ziada tension na lay jana ......

Oh come on! I was hoping you could explain me all this, since you have a morbid fear of USSR.

In 1971, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto succeeded to bring full-scale Soviet investment in this project, and laid the foundations of the steel mills in 1972 with the help of Soviet Union.[4] In 1980-85, the Soviet direct investment increased from 10% to 15% after officially signing an economic cooperation agreement in 1985.[5] The overall 1.6% of all Pakistan's exports were accounted in 1981, which increased to 2.5% in 1985.[5] Particularly, the Soviet material exports exceeded the imports in three-fold method in early 1980.[5] In April 1981, Pakistan and Soviet Union formed a joint private company to start the manufacture of the agriculture tractors, for which Soviet Union offered $20 million US dollars.[5] In November 1981, the Soviet Ambassador to Pakistan, V.S. Smirnov, publicly announced that the USSR was ready to provide the financial and technical assistance to set up the export-oriented industries.[5] In November 1981, the USSR financially funded and solely establishing the Guddo Thermal Power Station, and surprise Pakistan by offering to build a second nuclear power plant in May 1981.[5] In 1983, the USSR agreeably sold components of oil-drilled equipments for the construction of the Multan Heavy Water Reactor (Multan-I).[5] In 1985, with Soviet presence, President Zia-ul-Haq inaugurated the vertically integrated and the largest Steel Mill in the South Asia, the Pakistan Steel Mills in Karachi, on 15 January 1985.[4] This project was completed at a capital cost of Rs.24,700 million; and even as today, the Steel Mills maintains a respected history and great symbol for the relations of USSR and Pakistan.[4]

Source: Multiple Terrorist groups claim Wagah Border attack, 55 people killed. | Page 55

When you are done, I shall present you with declassified documents from the Kremlin, explaining the mood inside Moscow, before the start of the Afghan war. Later, you can explain me if destroying our own country to further U.S. interests was as fine an idea, as you think it to be.

The opposition for " entering forces in Afghanistan " came from the top brass itself . " We believe it would be a fatal mistake to commit ground troops. If our troops went in, the situation in your country would not improve. On the contrary, it would get worse. Our troops would have to struggle not only with an external aggressor, but with a significant part of your own people. And the people would never forgive such things; Alexei Kosygin, the Chairman of the USSR Council of Ministers .[33]

Similar concerns would be raised by other Soviet leaders that " full Soviet intervention "would only play into the hands of our enemies; both yours and ours " - Leonid Brezhnev, the Soviet head of state warned . [34]

Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov sent a letter to the Soviet embassy in Kabul noting that "to fight in Afghanistan with the basmachi [armed Muslim guerrillas who fled from Soviet Central Asia] and the White Guard would mean provoking a war in Central Asia, which would be to the advantage of Germany and Japan. It would undercut our prestige in the East and destabilize the territories behind the Red Army's front lines. Therefore, neutralization of Afghanistan and cooperation with Iraq and Saudi Arabia, along with strengthening relations with Yemen are the main tasks of our policy in this region." [35]

On March 17-19, 1979 - The Soviet Politburo met in three extended sessions during the height of the Herat crisis to discuss pleas from Taraki and Amin to send troops. The next day, however, even though the situation in Herat has worsened, Kosygin, Andropov and others still advocated staying away from a commitment of troops. Gromyko delivered a detailed rundown of the reasons why such a commitment would be a mistake . He also pointed out that the conflict is an internal Afghan affair. A verbatim transcript of the politburo discussion has become available in the public domain .

Yuri Andropov : Comrades , I have thought this issue over very thoroughly since yesterday and have concluded that we should consider very, very seriously whether it would make sense to send troops into Afghanistan . The economy is backward , the Islamic religion predominates , and nearly all of the rural population is illiterate . I do not think we can uphold the revolution in Afghanistan with the help of our bayonets. The idea is intolerable and we can not risk it.

Andrei Gromyko in the Politburo told the committee " I fully support Comrade Andropov’s view that we should exclude the dispatch of troops to Afghanistan . The Afghan army is unreliable and our army would become an aggressor. With whom will it fight? With the Afghan people! Our Army would have to shoot them! To be blunt, the Afghan [communist] leaders have made many mistakes and haven't got the support of their own people . "

Andrei Kirilenko : Tanks and armored vehicles cannot rescue them [the PDPA]. I think that we must frankly tell them that. We must say that we will support them to the hilt, we shall give them all of the aid that we have promised to give , but we cannot send troops [37][38]

In Late September 1979 - The Politburo commission on Afghanistan summoned the chief of the military advisory group, Gorelov, and KGB representative Ivanov to Moscow on short notice. Questioned separately, Gorelov again strongly contended that it would not be a good idea to increase the Soviet military presence in the country .[39]

Contrary to the popular belief , even for the Soviets , the Afghanistan wasn't the much hyped strategic prize , it was always thought to be . This is reinforced by the Soviet General Secretary in his initial encounter with Afghan President Babrak Karmal, where Gorbachev made clear his determination to end the war: Karmal would have to defend his own country, Gorbachev told him in no uncertain terms, by the summer of 1986.

According to recently disclosed Russian documents, Gorbachev said that Karmal was shocked by this news. "[He] was dumbfounded, in no way expected such a turn, was sure that we needed Afghanistan more than he did, and was clearly expecting that we will be there for a long time, if not forever,"[40]

Source: The War That Never Was .

No one line BS, this time, take your time and do answer me, all of this.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

I would have appreciated if you had choose to answer a single point, raised in both posts. But hey why answer, when the supreme belief of infallibility of the Commander of the Faithful suffices? So its fine for Good Taliban - the Afghan Taliban to condemn the death of TTP chief- a person who has been our worst enemy?

Answer me any one of these. Have the remnants of the Afghan Jihad not targeted Pakistan, after 2001? Have the fighters or Mujahids that served in the Afghan Jihad, not returned to fight alongside TTP and other banned organizations? Have the foreign militants, settled in Pakistan, during the 80's, not become a problem? Is the Jihadi infrastructure, not become a threat to national security? Has the ideology brought to fight the Afghan war and subsequent indoctrination of Pakistans with it, not resulted in extremism and terrorism, in the country? Who brought the Afghans with drugs and guns and allowed them to roam freely across the country?

most of the TTP terrorists we kill are in their 20s and 30s......they werent even alive during the anti-soviet campaign, which was a noble cause and suited our interests at the time.

i agree though that the foreign militants and those that indoctrinate people to take up arms against our own motherland are liabilities and we must deal with them using an iron fist

the broader issue is the lack of spine showed by any of our esteemed elected leaders....the current one was receptive to peace-talks with these very same people. When "peace" failed, the army was called in.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

You misunderstood me then.
I am fully aware that they dont have an ill design for Pakistan by intent or that they have broken any Pakistani laws.

Okay..? so what's the problem

 

[Pakistani shaheens]

I would have appreciated if you had choose to answer a single point, raised in both posts. But hey why answer, when the supreme belief of infallibility of the Commander of the Faithful suffices? So its fine for Good Taliban - the Afghan Taliban to condemn the death of TTP chief- a person who has been our worst enemy?

Answer me any one of these. Have the remnants of the Afghan Jihad not targeted Pakistan, after 2001? Have the fighters or Mujahids that served in the Afghan Jihad, not returned to fight alongside TTP and other banned organizations? Have the foreign militants, settled in Pakistan, during the 80's, not become a problem? Is the Jihadi infrastructure, not become a threat to national security? Has the ideology brought to fight the Afghan war and subsequent indoctrination of Pakistans with it, not resulted in extremism and terrorism, in the country? Who brought the Afghans with drugs and guns and allowed them to roam freely across the country?

It's not right to put all blames on hamid gull as he remained in office for only couple of years and during time when the Sovient war was ended. TTP was created by USA which you haven't mentioned anywhere in your debate. Instead you are bashing Hamid gull as if he was a sole person who has created a giagantic organization to destroy USSR. And just look how much peaceful were we before this fake jamuriat and Musharraf era. The only people who are to be blamed are these incompetant politicians who screwed things up.

 

[Jayanta]

Here is another masterclass video...

 

[Secur]

most of the TTP terrorists we kill are in their 20s and 30s......they werent even alive during the anti-soviet campaign, which was a noble cause and suited our interests at the time.

i agree though that the foreign militants and those that indoctrinate people to take up arms against our own motherland are liabilities and we must deal with them using an iron fist

the broader issue is the lack of spine showed by any of our esteemed elected leaders....the current one was receptive to peace-talks with these very same people. When "peace" failed, the army was called in.

I speak, of the leaders and prominent commanders, most of whom are found with background in the Afghan Jihad, you cant pretent no longer that these people aren't the derivatives of the war fought on Afghan soil. Many of these fighters have such families. Those foreign militants you are fighting, were imported in the eighties. I do not agree that it was ever in the country's interest, its never good to create monsters who inevitably and ultimately go out of your control, as it later happened. Its never good to fight other's war and when fighting, involving the whole country and making your soil, the battleground. We should have learned from the Peshawar accords after seeing the Mujahids go haywire. The Reds had left, by then.

Peace talks are for humans, these are animals. They understand only the language, in which the military is communicating to them right now. No terrorists Mullahs like Abdul Azeez landing in North Waziristan for dialogues, no longer. However, the current one, like all of them, before him, understood once the peace talks failed. That is enough.

 

[Prometheus]

just a question ............that dilusional old mate in the video says India was never united except under mughals or British .

wasnt Emperor Ashoka had larger kingdom????

and when in the history mughals had control of whole India ???? South India was out of their reach ....so was Assam ....in fact Assam defeat mughals when mughals attacked them

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Here is another masterclass video...

doesnt come close to masterpieces from across the border, like Subramaniac Swampy or Bha-rat Vermin

 

[Secur]

It's not right to put all blames on hamid gull as he remained in office for only couple of years and during time when the Sovient war was ended. TTP was created by USA which you haven't mentioned anywhere in your debate. Instead you are bashing Hamid gull as if he was a sole person who has created a giagantic organization to destroy USSR. And just look how much peaceful were we before this fake jamuriat and Musharraf era. The only people who are to be blamed are these incompetant politicians who screwed things up.

Not all blame of course, he's not the main architect, but he played his part well. He has contributed to the current state of the country. Give me one shred of evidence that TTP was created by U.S.A. There were enough Jihadis and their offsprings leftover from the Afghan Jihad and enough infrastructure, ideology and extremism for it to be formed, indigenously, by Pakistanis on Pakistani soil. There's more than enough evidence that TTP is a domestric phenomenon. The problem with you people that you dont wish to answer points raised in previous posts, you have to repeat it all over again.

@Abu Zolfiqar What is the prominent belief in the army, about TTP? Both foreign and domestic? Or one of them?

 

[Secret Service]

Mr. Gul is a pissant and a hardcore Talibitches supporter. He has done more harm to Pakistan than India did in all the wars together.

how ??