HAL's PMF/FGFA: The Truths You Always Suspected!

[UKBengali]

IF we have learnt one thing from LCA TEJAS programme versis JF17 THUNDER in Pakistan.

ITS BETTER TO GET HELP TO START WITH

WE have access to help that china & pakistan (our likely adverasries) CAN ONLY DREAM OF ie

ELTA of ISRAEL ,,,,, DASSULT of FRANCE ,,,, & SUKHOI of RUSSIA. take it AND learn to license build first taking as much TOT AS WE can buy $$$$

then build you own LATER

China will surpass all those 3 countries by the end of the decade in aerospace technology anyway, so India will face a qualitative as well as a quantitative deficit by then.

 

[AnGrz_Z_K_Jailer]

^^^

Too many Chinese representivtive on pdf.

 

[sancho]

If you look at the PROJECT - FGFA, I am just seeing the History Repeating Itself.

Welcome Home T-50MKI.

I think @sancho & @Abingdonboy can shed some more light.

Sorry mate, that you should wash your eyes and look at it once more!

But first of all, another crappy "BLOGPOST" of Mr vkthakur, full of speculations and wild guesses, he is only presenting his opinion and although the might be an ex military official, these speculations are not more worth then any post here, unless they are backed up by credible sources!

Back to FGFA, we have discussed this so often and I am kind of amazed that people still don't see the advantages we have with this deal. Not only that we again get hands on a high quality fighter, this time we will be actively involved in the project!

Obviously we are not involved in stealth design, AESA radar or engine developments, because we lack the know how and can't contribute in these fields. That's why these areas will be mainly developed by Russians and why Pak Fa and FGFA "finally" will obviously have the same design, radar and engines.
The difference in design was always stated with HAL beeing included in designing the twin seat version, according to the recent reports there seems to be a change of policy in IAF with that regard, which definitely is a big downer for HAL currently, but the twin seater is still on the card later and for exports, as Sukhoi officials confirmed. They also offered HAL the navalisation, if India would go for a naval version, so that would be another part where we could contribute to the design.

Other than that, it was alyways clear that our part would mainly be in materials and avionics, just like the main differences might be internal once, like a higher use of composites, subsystems produced in India, a different cockpit layout, with displays developed and produced in India, different EW sensors, not to forget the possibility to add different weapons.

Most of this is even visible for the MKI today, where we see more and more parts of the MKI beeing produced in India, where we see Indian avionics, displays and weapons beeing integrated with the coming upgrades...
so with MKI we reached a level to modify a foreign fighter with more indigenous content and replace Russian parts (after 10 years), while FGFA will be our own fighter, that will be developed according our requirements with the parts that we can develop and produce from day 1!

Which leads us to the main point, because we OWN FGFA to 50%, while MKI was and still is a Russian fighter, even if we do some modifications. Any sale of the Su 30, was also a result of the good PR it got after our procurment, but did our industry benefit from it? Of course not, because we had not part in the fighter, but were just a prefered export customer.
Any FGFA sale on the other side, will financially benefit our industry as well, since certain parts, or even the FGFA version as a whole might be produced in India.

Even for future upgrades, things will be totally different in future as they are now. MKI is a Russian fighter, developed by Sukhoi, which means they also develop further upgrades and make the overhauling of airframes. That's why we send MKIs (or any Mig) to Russia, let them build an upgrade package including a full overhaul of the airframe. But for FGFA we will be able to do the most parts on our own in India in future and without beeing totally dependent on what uprgade options Russia offers us (except of engine and radar upgrades). If we want to add different weapons, we can do it, if we want to use new materials, or own coatings, we can do it. More modern displays, other EW sensors, no problem...

The MKI deal for sure was a great step forward for the Indo-Russian relations, but since then much have changed! We were a favourite customer back then, but we are a partner now, be it for FGFA, MTA, or Brahmos and they offering much more.
That makes us much more independent, increases the Indian contend, improves our industry and could generate even export benefits, just like in case of MTA and Brahmos. Not to mention that these weapon systems hugely improves the operational capabilities of our forces, because we get hand on completely new capabilities, things that we couldn't develop on our own anytime soon and that will be our high level systems in the coming decades, which again shows...

...total indigenisation is not the only way to go and there are better ways for India!

 

[ANPP]

China will surpass all those 3 countries by the end of the decade in aerospace technology anyway, so India will face a qualitative as well as a quantitative deficit by then.

China will surpass Dassault/Sukhoi with in a decade, forget it bro. They are still too far. Aerospace tech is not so simple......

 

[Invincible INDIAN]

Sorry mate, that you should wash your eyes and look at it once more!

But first of all, another crappy "BLOGPOST" of Mr vkthakur, full of speculations and wild guesses, he is only presenting his opinion and although the might be an ex military official, these speculations are not more worth then any post here, unless they are backed up by credible sources!

Back to FGFA, we have discussed this so often and I am kind of amazed that people still don't see the advantages we have with this deal. Not only that we again get hands on a high quality fighter, this time we will be actively involved in the project!

Obviously we are not involved in stealth design, AESA radar or engine developments, because we lack the know how and can't contribute in these fields. That's why these areas will be mainly developed by Russians and why Pak Fa and FGFA "finally" will obviously have the same design, radar and engines.
The difference in design was always stated with HAL beeing included in designing the twin seat version, according to the recent reports there seems to be a change of policy in IAF with that regard, which definitely is a big downer for HAL currently, but the twin seater is still on the card later and for exports, as Sukhoi officials confirmed. They also offered HAL the navalisation, if India would go for a naval version, so that would be another part where we could contribute to the design.

Other than that, it was alyways clear that our part would mainly be in materials and avionics, just like the main differences might be internal once, like a higher use of composites, subsystems produced in India, a different cockpit layout, with displays developed and produced in India, different EW sensors, not to forget the possibility to add different weapons.

Most of this is even visible for the MKI today, where we see more and more parts of the MKI beeing produced in India, where we see Indian avionics, displays and weapons beeing integrated with the coming upgrades...
so with MKI we reached a level to modify a foreign fighter with more indigenous content and replace Russian parts (after 10 years), while FGFA will be our own fighter, that will be developed according our requirements with the parts that we can develop and produce from day 1!

Which leads us to the main point, because we OWN FGFA to 50%, while MKI was and still is a Russian fighter, even if we do some modifications. Any sale of the Su 30, was also a result of the good PR it got after our procurment, but did our industry benefit from it? Of course not, because we had not part in the fighter, but were just a prefered export customer.
Any FGFA sale on the other side, will financially benefit our industry as well, since certain parts, or even the FGFA version as a whole might be produced in India.

Even for future upgrades, things will be totally different in future as they are now. MKI is a Russian fighter, developed by Sukhoi, which means they also develop further upgrades and make the overhauling of airframes. That's why we send MKIs (or any Mig) to Russia, let them build an upgrade package including a full overhaul of the airframe. But for FGFA we will be able to do the most parts on our own in India in future and without beeing totally dependent on what uprgade options Russia offers us (except of engine and radar upgrades). If we want to add different weapons, we can do it, if we want to use new materials, or own coatings, we can do it. More modern displays, other EW sensors, no problem...

The MKI deal for sure was a great step forward for the Indo-Russian relations, but since then much have changed! We were a favourite customer back then, but we are a partner now, be it for FGFA, MTA, or Brahmos and they offering much more.
That makes us much more independent, increases the Indian contend, improves our industry and could generate even export benefits, just like in case of MTA and Brahmos. Not to mention that these weapon systems hugely improves the operational capabilities of our forces, because we get hand on completely new capabilities, things that we couldn't develop on our own anytime soon and that will be our high level systems in the coming decades, which again shows...

...total indigenisation is not the only way to go and there are better ways for India!

Thanks a lot buddy and a nice read. I am a defence enthusiastic and always enjoy your posts that helps in increasing my knowledge with a sense of satisfaction.

Yea!!! Sorry because I get so involved in reading your post, sometimes I forget to thank you

 

[arp2041]

Sorry mate, that you should wash your eyes and look at it once more! [/B]

On PDF a member has a RIGHT to make mistakes unless His Name is SANCHO

Having said that, Sancho, i think you, i & the author are saying more or less the same thing:

1. The Twin Seater Version of FGFA is put on back-burner as of now & rightly so since the stealth characteristics of a plane gets compromised with the addition of one more pilot, twin seater version will be used mainly for training purposes.
2. Technically our indigenous industry is not gaining as much as was thought so earlier since we were not involved in the project when the T-50, engine & radars were in it's nascent stages of designing (thanks to our decision making). But i am not saying that this is a great loss for Indian Industry, only more time will be needed to see the results.
3. What I meant with naming T-50MKI was that the basic T-50 version & the Indian versions will not be much different as you urself said that the ac design, engine, radars etc. will be similar in the two, the only difference can be that of western avionics & few other things which IAF demands. This sounds like the similar development of Sukhoi-30K & Sukhoi-30MKI versions.
4. I also said that i see History being repeated b'coz of the reason that i think, in all probability, IAF will induct more or less the same T-50 versions in the early squadrons b'coz of both time & cost constrains, than we can see some major changes & HAL producing almost the entire ac in India just like the MKIs, but it will take another decade or so.

But obviously we have come a long way, from mig-21s ---> sukhoi-30mki ----> FGFA.

 

[sancho]

On PDF a member has a RIGHT to make mistakes unless His Name is SANCHO

Of course WE have, since I am no exception!

1. The Twin Seater Version of FGFA is put on back-burner as of now & rightly so since the stealth characteristics of a plane gets compromised with the addition of one more pilot, twin seater version will be used mainly for training purposes.

I don't think that has any relation to the decisions, but simple cost and time reasons lead to it. Designing new prototypes with a new design and dedicated tests will be more costly and result into more delays. The Russians are already busy with their side of development and are under pressure with the early integration goal. That's why the desicion could be based on keeping things simple, with one basic design for the moment, that still could be a dedicated version for us.
The sad thing is, that if we had took this decision from the start and would be faster in our decision process, HAL could have been involved even in the design of Pak Fa and gained even more experience.

2. Technically our indigenous industry is not gaining as much

That's not correct and where I disagree completely with Mr. Thakur, because his point was ADA don't benefit from FGFA to design AMCA, which is logical, since ADA is not involved in FGFAs design, but HAL is.
On the other side, we immensely benefit from the FGFA project, not only by developing own materials, coatings, avionics and weapons, which could be used on an AMCA as well, but also from getting access to latest Russian radar and engine techs, which are far far ahead of anything we can develop currently on our own. Even the stealth design experience we get through HAL would benefit an AMCA project, if ADA would work together with HAL for it and not see it as a seperate development. Actually the more I think about it, the more logical would be an AMCA in the medium class, based on FGFA, instead beeing further developed from LCA MK2 and it's possible techs.
The experience, the tech and component commonality would be high, which reduced development time and cost, but I doubt ADA/DRDO would let that happen, since their OWN interest is, to develop an own Indian fighter, as silly as it is.

3. What I meant with naming T-50MKI was that the basic T-50 version & the Indian versions will not be much different as you urself said

Which is not correct fot 2 reasons, the FGFA prototype might indeed be very different from the current T50, because that is the prototype aimed on the early Pak Fa, that Russia wants to induct around 2015. FGFA on the other side, might have further airframe changes like new engine coverings, because it is meant to get the new NG engine as well. Maybe not the first FGFA prototype, but the 2nd around 2017 could come with the type 30 engine, not to mention that India might prefer shapings of the IRST and MAWS, not only coatings like the Russians now seems to use for commonality to Su34 and 35.
Also MKI means, an Indian version of the Su 30 MK, with some minor modification offered by the manufacturer, but as I said, FGFA is much more than that, since it is developed jointly by us and according to our requirements, with credible differences wrt materials, or avionics. That's why it deserves an own name / designation!

 

[ANPP]

Which is not correct fot 2 reasons, the FGFA prototype might indeed be very different from the current T50, because that is the prototype aimed on the early Pak Fa, that Russia wants to induct around 2015. FGFA on the other side, might have further airframe changes like new engine coverings, because it is meant to get the new NG engine as well. Maybe not the first FGFA prototype, but the 2nd around 2017 could come with the type 30 engine, not to mention that India might prefer shapings of the IRST and MAWS, not only coatings like the Russians now seems to use for commonality to Su34 and 35.
Also MKI means, an Indian version of the Su 30 MK, with some minor modification offered by the manufacturer, but as I said, FGFA is much more than that, since it is developed jointly by us and according to our requirements, with credible differences wrt materials, or avionics. That's why it deserves an own name / designation!

This is because the version which RuAF will inducting, is not full-flag PAKFA. While IAF want complete a/c so they need to wait more.

 

[Koovie]

China will surpass all those 3 countries by the end of the decade in aerospace technology anyway, so India will face a qualitative as well as a quantitative deficit by then.

None of these aircraft have ever seen combat and have been analysed by anyone outside China, so better dont jump to your ridiculous and completely BASELESS conclusions.