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[AHAM BRIHMASMI]

Typical Sancho ... who will read this Mahabharata??

your assumption "N-LCA will play no role in future anymore, nor will it have any reasonable effect on us developing a naval fighter" debunked here..

1. Abhi Dilli door hai bhai, 5th gen fighter for Carriers is distance dream. By that time I will become Grand-Pa...
2. Even India will go for CATOBAR (Which is not 100% sure till date) still Iindia will have 50% SATOBAR Carrier

"delay in LCA prgm"
3. NAVY must not give a sh!t , Its developer job to do time management.

" but order additional Mig 29Ks"

4. I don't remember a single war , when India was not short of resources. Insha-Allah if NLCA will come, at least NAVY will not short of fighters...

I am with N-LCA, Who else is with me???

and finally your assumption "SATOBAR bird development won't help CATOBAR bird development"

4. Need some expert advice
Gambit, PTld3, Somnath, KRAIT, S-DUCT, DARKY Do you guys Agree with Sancho??

Count me on your side brother, @sancho, I read your every post and every time I suspect that you are working for arms Importers lobby in india, everything which is being developed in india is bad, inferior, useless and waste of money according to you, and must be stopped immediately , and we should only rely on purchased weapons, KAB TAK DOST ?? we are a poor nation, we can not afford to spend huge money on arms till infinity. we have to develop our own industry one day. so why not now ?? and even if our self developed products are a bit costlier then as per economics it will be almost free, because money will remain inside our country.

 

[Srinivas]

Some more pics of LSP 8 first flight

 

[Anony]

Typical Sancho ... who will read this Mahabharata??

your assumption "N-LCA will play no role in future anymore, nor will it have any reasonable effect on us developing a naval fighter" debunked here..

1. Abhi Dilli door hai bhai, 5th gen fighter for Carriers is distance dream. By that time I will become Grand-Pa...
2. Even India will go for CATOBAR (Which is not 100% sure till date) still Iindia will have 50% SATOBAR Carrier

"delay in LCA prgm"
3. NAVY must not give a sh!t , Its developer job to do time management.

" but order additional Mig 29Ks"

4. I don't remember a single war , when India was not short of resources. Insha-Allah if NLCA will come, at least NAVY will not short of fighters...

I am with N-LCA, Who else is with me???

and finally your assumption "SATOBAR bird development won't help CATOBAR bird development"

4. Need some expert advice
Gambit, PTld3, Somnath, KRAIT, S-DUCT, DARKY Do you guys Agree with Sancho??

@Beerbal. Dude it's not about to be with you or not. It's about strategic and defence need. I am not saying your point is baseless but you probably have overlooked certain factors. Firstly India is going to have 3 AC in it's arsenal and not more. The IAC-1 will be ready by 2018 and IAC-2 by 2027. And it's very much known that post 2025 will be the era of 5th gen fighter. Thus IAC-2 in all probability will fly 5th gen fighter. INS Vikramaditya and IAC-1 will carry 18 odd fighters each.With these we need additional 18 in reserve and approximately the same no. during war. Thus the total requirement of IN is 75 odd 4.5 gen fighters.

So others member are stating it's better to order 30-40 more Mig 29k than invest in a complete new machine which in every respect will not be as capable as Mig-29k are. As for experience, India could have negotiated for joint production. Being the largest operator of Mig-29k, India would have been well placed for the negotiation to happen.

 

[Beerbal]

@Beerbal. Dude it's not about to be with you or not. It's about strategic and defence need. I am not saying your point is baseless but you probably have overlooked certain factors. Firstly India is going to have 3 AC in it's arsenal and not more. The IAC-1 will be ready by 2018 and IAC-2 by 2027. And it's very much known that post 2025 will be the era of 5th gen fighter. Thus IAC-2 in all probability will fly 5th gen fighter. INS Vikramaditya and IAC-1 will carry 18 odd fighters each.With these we need additional 18 in reserve and approximately the same no. during war. Thus the total requirement of IN is 75 odd 4.5 gen fighters.

So others member are stating it's better to order 30-40 more Mig 29k than invest in a complete new machine which in every respect will not be as capable as Mig-29k are. As for experience, India could have negotiated for joint production. Being the largest operator of Mig-29k, India would have been well placed for the negotiation to happen.

Bro I was just pulling leg, Sancho is one of the best member here. He has gain respect. But when it comes to LCA, he get itchy.. I remember long ago (when he was not Think tank) some one honoured/Crowned him "Greatest troll of LCA". Having said that I will reiterate that I have lot of respect for him.



If Navy has decided to go for N-LCA, they must have thought some thing. N-LCA will serve base to N-AMCA. Navy don't want F35 (cost restriction) and N-FGFA (I don't think N-FGFA will be made), NAVY want N-AMCA.


Even if N-AMCA will be CATONBAR, N-LCA will give awesome experience. So the question arise now (Sancho suggested it many time), why not restrict N-LCA as demo project?? My view is, No, No demo project, let it be complete project, unless NAVY use it for 4-5 years they can't give feedback to N-AMCA team.

N-LCA is nececary for Indian NAVY, IN knows it, its only few member not agree with...

 

[sancho]

I read your every post and every time

Then I highly suggest to read the posts correctly, because you clearly didn't!

I am all for LCA, that's why I am fully supporting it for the IAF, where it would be really useful for us, just like I would fully support AMCA for IN, why I want ADA/DRDO to work more effectively on LCA and don't let them distract from AMCA project now and why I want IAF to induct it as soon as possible.
BUT I don't blind myself by pride reasons, that's why I don't support useless developments like N-LCA, criticise ADA/DRDO for the LCA project management and the radar/engine development disasters and will continue to do so!

we can not afford to spend huge money on arms till infinity.

Exactly, that's why I want to use the money more effectively! There is no operational need for N-LCA, since we get all we need by the Migs and the N-LCA tech demonstrator. So why are we wasting money on a (as IN already admitted) modest single engine, light class, 4th gen STOBAR fighter, instead investing in a development of a NG carrier fighter and to get catapults?
We have several 4th gen carrier fighters , so we don't need another one only because it's Indian, but if it would offer operational advantages in war times. That isn't the case with N-LCA, but that would be the case with a naval AMCA!!!

we have to develop our own industry one day. so why not now ??

Who said we shouldn't? But again, do it with a little bit of logical sense and not to show off like DRDO does it and for pride reasons. That's why I said that we need the N-LCA tech demonstrator, to gain experiense in "general" navalising, to set up test facilities and industries, but not N-LCA carrier fighters in numbers, with all the changes that caused further delays in LCA MK2 as well.
That's why I said, develop LCA MK2 for IAF, but if possible use the same indigenous techs and weapons for Mig 29K too!


Take one step at the time, make it simple and use foreign partners, THAT'S how we get stronger and less dependent in the long run. Not by claiming we can do this and that, just as good as others can, to get a reality check later and embarrass ourselfs in front of the world.

 

[sancho]

If Navy has decided to go for N-LCA, they must have thought some thing.

Of course:

LCA-Navy Not What We Want, But It's Ours

It may not be what we want, but it is our own aircraft," says the Indian Navy's Flag Officer Naval Aviation (FONA) Rear Admiral Sudhir Pillai on the LCA Navy...

...I wish wish we could straightaway develop a Rafale. But seriously, we have to look at the Indian Navy and it commitment towards indigenisation. I agree that we have made a modest start, but it has been a huge learning experience. LCA Navy will remain a modest platform with an uprated engine which will give us adequate capability at sea. While it is easy to buy from abroad, sometimes it is extremely difficult to support those platforms. Our past experiences tell us that it is worth committing resources to develop our own assets."

Livefist: "LCA-Navy Not What We Want, But It's Ours": FONA


Primarily they wanted to support the industry to gain experience in the naval aviation field, which then could benefit IN in future fighter projects and to be less dependent from foreign supplies, but not because N-LCA would be a good carrier fighter!

That's the same that I want as well, but in a simpler and more rational way, without mixing:

1) LCA MK1 and MK2 for IAF
2) N-LCA MK1 TD for the industry
3) LCA MK2 techs and weapons (if mature and good enough) to replace Russian parts on Mig 29K for IN
4) FGFA and AURA for IAF
5) AMCA for IN


I know that many won't agree for the reasons I stated, but I prefer a Mig 29K with Indian AESA, Astra missile, Sudarshan LGB, Helina ATGM, Brahmos light and possibly even Kaveri K10 engines, ANY DAY over N-LCA, simply because it combines capability with indigenous developments and not only pride to have an indigenous carrier fighter. The earlier will protect India, the latter wont!

 

[3Idiots]

Count me on your side brother, @sancho, I read your every post and every time I suspect that you are working for arms Importers lobby in india, everything which is being developed in india is bad, inferior, useless and waste of money according to you, and must be stopped immediately , and we should only rely on purchased weapons, KAB TAK DOST ?? we are a poor nation, we can not afford to spend huge money on arms till infinity. we have to develop our own industry one day. so why not now ?? and even if our self developed products are a bit costlier then as per economics it will be almost free, because money will remain inside our country.

Dude, I get exactly the same feelings whenever I read his posts. :shrug:

 

[Sergi]

Count me on your side brother, @sancho, I read your every post and every time I suspect that you are working for arms Importers lobby in india, everything which is being developed in india is bad, inferior, useless and waste of money according to you, and must be stopped immediately , and we should only rely on purchased weapons, KAB TAK DOST ?? we are a poor nation, we can not afford to spend huge money on arms till infinity. we have to develop our own industry one day. so why not now ?? and even if our self developed products are a bit costlier then as per economics it will be almost free, because money will remain inside our country.

You should have read his posts before commenting something like this ^^^

Don't generalise the point. He is against the N-LCA and pushing N-AMCA. So is IN. do you want to call them agents of weapon dealers too ???

Mig-29K will be better than N-LCA any day. Mig-29K production line can't remain open without Indian order. So there is a chance that we can buy the entire line and bring it to India and mod the plane with our weapons ,radar and engine. That's will be effective application of our development.

100% wrong on LCA. He is biggest support of LCA as a platform. He is just the biggest criticiser of the Managing agencies DRDO/ADA/HAL. Show one post where he is against the development of LCA


One of our services chief clearly said our PSUs should make what services want and NOT what they can make. Even then we see the model of a trainer which IAF clearly don't want

 

[Anony]

If Navy has decided to go for N-LCA, they must have thought some thing. N-LCA will serve base to N-AMCA. Navy don't want F35 (cost restriction) and N-FGFA (I don't think N-FGFA will be made), NAVY want N-AMCA.


Even if N-AMCA will be CATONBAR, N-LCA will give awesome experience. So the question arise now (Sancho suggested it many time), why not restrict N-LCA as demo project?? My view is, No, No demo project, let it be complete project, unless NAVY use it for 4-5 years they can't give feedback to N-AMCA team.

N-LCA is nececary for Indian NAVY, IN knows it, its only few member not agree with...

Agreed. Most of it. Though I am not a supporter of N-LCA because of limited role it can play. I too believe N-FGFA will not be a realty and Navy will go for N-AMCA. I even agree that many things can be learned because of this project even if IAC-2 will be of CATOBAR type. But I don't support N-LCA because of other reason mentioned below:-

1. It will never able to carry Brahmos under its wings. Atleast Mig 29k with little modification can. That means it can't achieve a kill on major warships from distance.

2.It's range is limited. We can't have aerial tanker for it in the sea.

3. No doubt it will be a very potent aircraft in its category in the world but its design is more for a point interception and IN might not need any aircraft for this role in mid sea. (Pakistan will not provide such threat and PLAAF AC will not come till IOR and even if it does, we must understand Mig 29k on carrier deck will be a better choice.)


@sancho I want AMCA in IAF as well. AMCA with it's range & capability will be way too good against Pakistan.

 

[Sergi]

Agreed. Most of it. Though I am not a supporter of N-LCA because of limited role it can play. I too believe N-FGFA will not be a realty and Navy will go for N-AMCA. I even agree that many things can be learned because of this project even if IAC-2 will be of CATOBAR type. But I don't support N-LCA because of other reason mentioned below:-

1. It will never able to carry Brahmos under its wings. Atleast Mig 29k with little modification can. That means it can't achieve a kill on major warships from distance.

2.It's range is limited. We can't have aerial tanker for it in the sea.

3. No doubt it will be a very potent aircraft in its category in the world but its design is more for a point interception and IN might not need any aircraft for this role in mid sea. (Pakistan will not provide such threat and PLAAF AC will not come till IOR and even if it does, we must understand Mig 29k on carrier deck will be a better choice.)


@sancho I want AMCA in IAF as well. AMCA with it's range & capability will be way too good against Pakistan.

1. There are other anti ship missiles that N-LCA can carry so that's not the point

2. True. Range is limted. So have to carry external fuel tanks. So less weapons. There are refuelers and buddy refuelers for Navy too

3. LCA was never designed to a potent platform. It was aimed to achieve low cost low end plane

4. N-AMCA will be a great power projection but we don't need that for Pakistan with whom we share land and see border.

 

[Anony]

1. There are other anti ship missiles that N-LCA can carry so that's not the point

I have very cleraly mention in my post "can't achieve a kill from distance" which means from 300km away. I know that India has other anti-ship missiles which N-LCA can carry. But you must understand that, only Brahmos has the potential to achieve a complete kill with one hit as it's inertia will be close to 16-32 times more than what will be achieved by other anti-ship missiles. Thus Brahmos can destroy the hull of the ship in one hit and also that it can target warships from that distance where there is no threat to the aircraft.

3. LCA was never designed to a potent platform. It was aimed to achieve low cost low end plane

Again I mentioned potent in its class. There is no naval light weight fighter used by any navy which is of its weight class and still is significantly superior than N-LCA. Potent compared to light weight alternative that our adversaries have.

4. N-AMCA will be a great power projection but we don't need that for Pakistan with whom we share land and see border.

We need both AMCA & N-AMCA. It's for the same reason that we share both land and sea.

 

[sancho]

You should have read his posts before commenting something like this ^^^

Don't generalise the point. He is against the N-LCA and pushing N-AMCA...

...He is just the biggest criticiser of the Managing agencies DRDO/ADA/HAL.

That is the problem, many of our fellow countrymen prefer to jump around and celebrate any first flight of an LCA prototype, while completely ignoring the problems the delays causes to our forces, what kind of mismanagement and failures our industry has caused.
There is something called constructive criticism, to show weakpoints, better and more effective ways and more importantly to learn and improve, so these mistakes won't be done again. But sadly too many don't know about this and only generalise things to either one or the other side.

@sancho I want AMCA in IAF as well. AMCA with it's range & capability will be way too good against Pakistan.

Even LCA is good enough against Pakistan and IAF will also have Rafale and MKI for the next 30 years. As I explained ofter, there is no fighter that would need to be replaced by AMCA, nor does it add any capability that IAF wouldn't have by the 4 fighters it already gets + Rustom H and AURA drones.
IN on the other side has no NG aircrafts on offer other than the F35 (that they and we all don't want), so the only logical choice would be either N-FGFA or N-AMCA. By the fact that these would have to face China and PLAN on IAC 2, the importance should be even more obvious and why ADA/DRDO are doing a major mistake again, to focus on IAF now.

 

[3Idiots]

^^ more like the usual sancho.

 

[Echo_419]

any one knows when the damn thing will get IOC & FOC

 

[Sergi]

@sancho : what will be the better option for IN ??? FGFA or AMCA ??? Assuming everything promised as of now comes true.