HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions

[sancho]

 

[sancho]

@sancho i like your avatar

After 3 years here I thought it was time for one.

 

[sancho]

Guys, please use this thread for LCA discussions and news, to keep them at one place which makes it easier to find interesting stuff later too.

Did anyone notice the air intake in front of tail fin! That was first think I noticed.

That's the APU intake, but it's not actually new. They have made some changes last year with the arrival of LSP 6 and 7 to reduce drag, just like at the air intakes.

Older version without APU and air intake changes:

 

[sancho]

If LCA is a sucessful we can also venture into other countries market by selling it cheaper than any other country.

There is not a single other country that could use N-LCA on it's carriers and by the pace and reputation of the LCA project as a whole, there are not much countries left that would buy it.

I know, but HAL should rather concentrate on the current LCA, thats enough. The higher the number of projects, the higher the possibility of delay. HAL will have to work on the SU 30MKI production, the entire Rafale program, the FGFA program and many other things. And HAL is not really known for its project management skills....

N-LCA was proposed to IN by ADA/DRDO not by HAL, HAL is just the manufacturer and responsible for production and testing, the developers are ADA/DRDO.

How else would we learn to navalize a fighter? If we want a homegrown 5th gen fighter to take off from our carriers (N-AMCA) we will HAVE to learn this, and we can only learn it with our own product.

Sorry mate, but that makes no sense.

1) You don't need a fully fledged carrier fighter program to learn how to navailise fighters, you ONLY need tech demonstrators

2) Navalising LCA to N-LCA for STOBAR carriers is way simpler, than navalising a fighter for CATOBAR carriers, so if we go for catapults on IAC2, we hardly learned anything useful with N-LCA.

3) Navalising a 4th gen design is simpler than a 5th generation one

4) We could have learned this from Russia, as a return of beeing Mig 29Ks main operator, or as they suggested by developing the naval design for Pak Fa / FGFA (for example about folding wings, which we didn't learned anything yet)

5) We don't learn now because it's an Indian product, but because we chose EADS (which is a questionable selection itself) as a consulting partner for the navalising

Imagine how much OPEX costs the IN can save during peacetime, if they fly sorties of N-LCA as opposed to twin engine jets like MIg-29K.

That would be a point for IAF, but can't be for IN, since a carrier air wing is highly limited wrt numbers and performance, that's why you add as many high quality fighters as possible. That's why a Mig 29K with more hardpoints and payload, would be a better choice than N-LCA with several operational limitations.

 

[Srinivas]

There is not a single other country that could use N-LCA on it's carriers and by the pace and reputation of the LCA project as a whole, there are not much countries left that would buy it.

I am saying in the context of whole LCA project not N-LCA. If LCA is successful then there are countries whom India can sell these fighter jets.
Since we will have the tech derived from PAK-FA and Rafale LCA mark 2 will be a fighter jet to recon.

 

[Hulk]

There is not a single other country that could use N-LCA on it's carriers and by the pace and reputation of the LCA project as a whole, there are not much countries left that would buy it.



N-LCA was proposed to IN by ADA/DRDO not by HAL, HAL is just the manufacturer and responsible for production and testing, the developers are ADA/DRDO.




Sorry mate, but that makes no sense.

1) You don't need a fully fledged carrier fighter program to learn how to navailise fighters, you ONLY need tech demonstrators

2) Navalising LCA to N-LCA for STOBAR carriers is way simpler, than navalising a fighter for CATOBAR carriers, so if we go for catapults on IAC2, we hardly learned anything useful with N-LCA.

3) Navalising a 4th gen design is simpler than a 5th generation one

4) We could have learned this from Russia, as a return of beeing Mig 29Ks main operator, or as they suggested by developing the naval design for Pak Fa / FGFA (for example about folding wings, which we didn't learned anything yet)

5) We don't learn now because it's an Indian product, but because we chose EADS (which is a questionable selection itself) as a consulting partner for the navalising




That would be a point for IAF, but can't be for IN, since a carrier air wing is highly limited wrt numbers and performance, that's why you add as many high quality fighters as possible. That's why a Mig 29K with more hardpoints and payload, would be a better choice than N-LCA with several operational limitations.

NLCA does not make any sense.

 

[sancho]

I am saying in the context of whole LCA project not N-LCA. If LCA is successful then there are countries whom India can sell these fighter jets.

Beyond 2020 (for exports), with an US engine? Doubtful

Since we will have the tech derived from PAK-FA and Rafale LCA mark 2 will be a fighter jet to recon.

It has not techs from Pak Fa and any fighter could be used for recon, it just needs a recon pod.

 

[Beerbal]

NLCA does not make any sense.

How will India gain the experience of making Futuristic Naval fighter? Tell me few things

1. Do you believe India will have 4+ Aircraft carriers in coming year?
2. Do you believe India will need Aircraft for these carriers?
3. Do you believe India will need Experience of making naval fighter???

One more question: In war scenario suppose India loose 5-6 MiG29K, Carriers will be useless? In that scenario if India have NLCA, Carrier will be useful.

 

[3Idiots]

NLCA is necessary, precisely for the reasons mentioned by Beerbal.

Mig-29s are only a stop gap thing... till we take things indigenous.

NLCA is perfectly compatible with INS Vikramditrya; STOBAR carriers .. it will have a mix of Mig-29 and NLCA.

 

[sancho]

1. Do you believe India will have 4+ Aircraft carriers in coming year?
2. Do you believe India will need Aircraft for these carriers?

It seems IN wants a 3 or 4 aircraft carriers at max and by the time they will come, N-LCA and hopefully ski-jump take off is not important for us anymore. That's why N-LCA will play no role in future anymore, nor will it have any reasonable effect on us developing a naval fighter, because we need to learn different things for a 5th gen carrier fighter, that needs to take off via catapults.

3. Do you believe India will need Experience of making naval fighter???

Of course, that's gaining experience is the core for the whole LCA program, but for operational reasons, LCA was only needed and useful in IAF, in higher numbers, next to highly capable fighters, supported by tankers and AWACS, in limited range roles.
But to gain experience in making a naval fighter, all we need is a tech demonstrator program and a foreign partner, so basically what we have now. It shows us how to strengthen the gear, what changes might be needed for the landing and we can test it at INS Hansa in simulated take offs and landings. All that is needed for this TD is the current N-LCA, based on the MK1 and not a fully fledged carrier fighter version, based on the MK2, with credible changes especially for the navy, which then delayed the whole LCA program again!

One more question: In war scenario suppose India loose 5-6 MiG29K, Carriers will be useless? In that scenario if India have NLCA, Carrier will be useful.

Why would a carrier that can carry around 20 fighters be useless, when it looses 5 fighters? Of course it is better to havy ANY fighter then NO fighter, but you don't develop and produce N-LCAs only to have fighters in reserve, but order additional Mig 29Ks, that's what we already did with the follow order.


The best way for both operational and industrial reasons would have been:

1) ordering additional Mig 29Ks for both carriers, instead of N-LCAs

2) insisting on more Indian participation in Mig 29K, be it through licence production of of parts, or the later integration of Indian radar, or engines (indigenous AESA, Kaveri K10) diverted from LCA program

3) hire Mikoyan as a partner for the navalising of LCA

4) opening a seperate (from IAFs LCAs) N-LCA Tech Demonstrator program, to gain experience in this field and set up own R&D and test capabilities in India


=> 1 and 2 would have made IN stronger, since they get higher numbers of the more capable plattform. But also can integrate core indigenous techs later, to make them more independent on Russia for upgrades or spare supply.
3 and 4 would have benefitted Indian industry, because the Russians had way more experience with navalising fighters for STOBAR carriers, than EADS had. They would have got anything needed to build up own capabilities and IF IN would want naval FGFA, this would have directly went into us navalising the fighter too. But most importantly this wouldn't had any further effect on the general LCA program!

 

[S-DUCT]

LCA-Tejas has Completed 2114 Test Flights successfully.(1-April-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-359,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,LSP5-153,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)

From

LCA-Tejas has Completed 2109 Test Flights successfully.(25-Mar-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-356,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-71,LSP5-153,LSP7-34,NP1-4)

 

[Hulk]

How will India gain the experience of making Futuristic Naval fighter? Tell me few things

1. Do you believe India will have 4+ Aircraft carriers in coming year?

I can see only 3 of them.

2. Do you believe India will need Aircraft for these carriers?

Are we going to use NLCA, looking at timelines, it might not be the case.

3. Do you believe India will need Experience of making naval fighter???

If NLCA takes resources (scientist) that delays LCA then very bad call. Getting LCA out ASAP should be top priority and once you have done with LCA than think about NLCA. Before you raise the second foot have the first foot in ground.

One more question: In war scenario suppose India loose 5-6 MiG29K, Carriers will be useless? In that scenario if India have NLCA, Carrier will be useful.

 

[DARKY]

Tejas LSP-8 first flight photos

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Tejas LSP-8 first flight photos

 

[Beerbal]

I can see only 3 of them.
Are we going to use NLCA, looking at timelines, it might not be the case.
If NLCA takes resources (scientist) that delays LCA then very bad call. Getting LCA out ASAP should be top priority and once you have done with LCA than think about NLCA. Before you raise the second foot have the first foot in ground.

Let it be 3, 3 carriers need at least 60 operational and 20-30 reserve birds. In war time 20 more birds so all together 120 Birds. The truth is 5th generation Carrier born fighter plane are 20-25 year ahead. Till that time 4.5 gen birds will be backbone of carrier fleet.

Except USA and brits, I don't see any one putting 5th gen birds in next few decades. So yes NLCA has potential for future.

Indian Navy is pragmatic, They know if they don't trash fleshy a$$ of HAL/DRDO they can't get proper result in future. IN is committed towards N-LCA, They will definitely buy 40 (a considerable number of N-LCA). Some time you need to learn fly before learning to walk.

 

[Beerbal]

It seems IN wants a 3 or 4 aircraft carriers at max and by the time they will come, N-LCA and hopefully ski-jump take off is not important for us anymore. That's why N-LCA will play no role in future anymore, nor will it have any reasonable effect on us developing a naval fighter, because we need to learn different things for a 5th gen carrier fighter, that needs to take off via catapults.
...........................................

Typical Sancho ... who will read this Mahabharata??

your assumption "N-LCA will play no role in future anymore, nor will it have any reasonable effect on us developing a naval fighter" debunked here..

1. Abhi Dilli door hai bhai, 5th gen fighter for Carriers is distance dream. By that time I will become Grand-Pa...
2. Even India will go for CATOBAR (Which is not 100% sure till date) still Iindia will have 50% SATOBAR Carrier

"delay in LCA prgm"
3. NAVY must not give a sh!t , Its developer job to do time management.

" but order additional Mig 29Ks"

4. I don't remember a single war , when India was not short of resources. Insha-Allah if NLCA will come, at least NAVY will not short of fighters...

I am with N-LCA, Who else is with me???

and finally your assumption "SATOBAR bird development won't help CATOBAR bird development"

4. Need some expert advice
Gambit, PTld3, Somnath, KRAIT, S-DUCT, DARKY Do you guys Agree with Sancho??