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[MumbaiIndians]

Wrong in many ways! They had Volvo aero engines long ago and the engine in the Gripen is a Volvo engine as well, although around 40% is GE origin. The point is, they planed from the start to modify a proven foreign engine, instead of developing an new indigenous one. That's why they had not such problems and delays like we had.

You can't modify a foreign engine just like that. You need blueprints, full access to design codes. Sweden is not under technology sanctions.

 

[gulte]

Wrong in many ways! They had Volvo aero engines long ago and the engine in the Gripen is a Volvo engine as well, although around 40% is GE origin. The point is, they planed from the start to modify a proven foreign engine, instead of developing an new indigenous one. That's why they had not such problems and delays like we had.




MMR is not completely homemade, but uses parts of the Elta 2032 as well, again not from the start, but when we realised that they offer better techs that we can't develop on our own so far and the AESA is even a better example! We started developments alone, IAF found out that it's below their requirements, now they search for an co-development partner for help.

Where did you get 40% number from, the only improvement over original engines was the use of single crystal blades and shafts and some more minor components. India is mainly struggling due its lack of Industrial know how in manufacturing high end miniatured electronics and the deficit might be reduced once we receive know how from MMRCA deal.

 

[MumbaiIndians]

Where did you get 40% number from, the only improvement over original engines was the use of single crystal blades and shafts and some more minor components. India is mainly struggling due its lack of Industrial know how in manufacturing high end miniatured electronics and the deficit might be reduced once we receive know how from MMRCA deal.

Good point.

Also, Israel has access to dual-use american defense research and this is primary reason behind blunder of Israeli dependence on USA. There is barely an Israeli weapon system which doesn't depend on USA for critical components. For every sell to India, they need permission from daddy(USA).

On other hand, DRDO has developed our AESA on its own. A slow but far better approach. Kargil & 26/11 has proved again that India has to chart out its own path. Others won't fight India's wars. Its another matter that NRI lobby is chest-beating about dumping their american daddy in MRCA. Israel is in mess because it depends too much on USA for security and advices on relations with its neighbours.

India is not Israel and will never be.

 

[luckyyy]

...............

 

[Black Widow]

MMR radar: Its based on ELta 2032, The processors are bought from Israel on which DRDO wrote its own code.. Some ppl are skeptic over processor we bought... I would like to give an example...

In my company we buy hardware (Processor) from Sun solaris, and later on that we write our code... No one rant that our product is not indigenous.

I don know what logic ppl apply to prove that MMR is non-indigenous...

Second and foremost point, % of indigenous: I never understood what this means??? BMW/Jaguar/Benz buy their components from India and China (A small city name Belgaum produce Cranks which is used for various range of vehilce (Bike to Cruise ship)) This is how Business work...

Even if we buy Engine, Radar, Avionics, Weapon and Integrate it it is 100% Indigenous..

 

[MumbaiIndians]

Sancho is biggest hidden troll of this thread, always busy in derailing the LCA thread. From here on, ignore him guys.

 

[sancho]

You can't modify a foreign engine just like that. You need blueprints, full access to design codes. Sweden is not under technology sanctions.

You can, if you are in a partnership and that's what they went for.
True, but we wasn't from Russia, or France as well, we had safer options for co-developments, or as stop gap solutions and if we wanted, we could even had joint with the Swedes in that time for Gripen/LCA. That also would have been a great chance, but the decision to develop anything on our own was the major mistake in the LCA program.
The security of the nation, the safty of our pilots, the capability of our industry would be way ahead now, if we have made better decisions back then, especially with a more realistic analysis of our own R&D capabilities!

Sancho is biggest hidden troll of this thread, always busy in derailing the LCA thread. From here on, ignore him guys.

Where did you get 40% number from, the only improvement over original engines was the use of single crystal blades and shafts and some more minor components. India is mainly struggling due its lack of Industrial know how in manufacturing high end miniatured electronics and the deficit might be reduced once we receive know how from MMRCA deal.

Sorry, the other way around 40% are Swedish, 60% are original GE parts of the F404 engine:

Volvo Aero RM12 (Sweden), Aero-engines - Turbofan

Overview
This afterburning turbofan was developed jointly with General Electric to power the JAS 39 Gripen

Description
On 3 June 1981 a consortium of Swedish aerospace companies submitted to the FMV (Swedish Defence Material Administration) the proposal for the next-generation fighter, then called the JAS 39. The document described a relatively small aircraft, powered by a single engine derived from the General Electric (GE) F404. The proposal was accepted, leading to the Saab Gripen (English name, Griffin). The first prototype flew on 9 December 1988.GE Aircraft Engines retains rights to the basic F404 design, and its Lynn, Massachusetts, plant supplies approximately 60 per cent by value of the parts for each engine, in the form of a self-contained production kit. In return, Volvo Aero not only supplies the other 40 per cent, but is also a partner, usually with a 20 per cent share, in all F404 applications. It supplies F404 parts to GE, similar to those that it manufactures for the RM12.Compared with other F404 engines, the RM12 develops significantly increased thrust. This has been achieved by increasing the turbine-inlet temperature by up to 105°C, made possible by changes to the hot-section materials, and by increasing the fan airflow. Because the Gripen is a single-engined aircraft, the RM12 fan is designed to meet more stringent bird-strike requirements. In turn, this requires changes to the control system (itself tailored to a single-engine application), with built-in redundancy to ensure get-home power.RM12 testing started at GE Lynn in June 1984, and testing of the first of six complete RM12 engines in Sweden began at Trollhättan on 23 January

http://articles..com/articles/-Aero-Engines/Volvo-Aero-RM12-Sweden.html

 

[MumbaiIndians]

You can, if you are in a partnership and that's what they went for.
True, but we wasn't from Russia, or France as well, we had safer options for co-developments, or as stop gap solutions and if we wanted, we could even had joint with the Swedes in that time for Gripen/LCA. That also would have been a great chance, but the decision to develop anything on our own was the major mistake in the LCA program.
The security of the nation, the safty of our pilots, the capability of our industry would be way ahead now, if we have made better decisions back then, especially with a more realistic analysis of our own R&D capabilities!

My dear, life is all about learning & sticking to your efforts. Even first 20 of american GE aero-engines failed and blasted on testbeds. Did they start crying or whining? No.

You have two options in life - Live in past, cry about it, be pessimistic, beat your chest OR be positive, humble, act in mature way and stand behind your team.

So far, IAF has failed to show a mature leadership. Same is the case with Army. Navy is far more mature and have better approach to things. They focus on realities rather than living in past and being cynical, pessimistic and showing "devdas" mentality.

IAF = Indian army = Devdas.
Indian Navy(IN) = A mature leadership, quite comparable to USN.

 

[luckyyy]

Sancho is biggest hidden troll of this thread, always busy in derailing the LCA thread. From here on, ignore him guys.

everyone like to became a partner , only once the project is complete !!

 

[soaringphnx]

Sancho is biggest hidden troll of this thread, always busy in derailing the LCA thread. From here on, ignore him guys.

I cant believe you can say such a thing. sancho is one of the most knowledgeable indian members on this forum. He has the respect of a lot of members.

 

[MumbaiIndians]

I cant believe you can say such a thing. sancho is one of the most knowledgeable indian members on this forum. He has the respect of a lot of members.

Does he need your help in trolling?

 

[kingdurgaking]

Does he need your help in trolling?

Oke i think we shouldnt accuse some one has trolling if he is not agreeing with your views... he has his own view and he puts the same in the form of proof... if you dont agree just counter it with your point....

Even I too had lot of heated discussion with him many times... just take what is valuable.. so far we have seen him never moved out of the topic...

 

[luckyyy]

MMR is not completely homemade, but uses parts of the Elta 2032 as well, again not from the start, but when we realised that they offer better techs that we can't develop on our own so far and the AESA is even a better example! We started developments alone, IAF found out that it's below their requirements, now they search for an co-development partner for help.

As I said, I am against AMCA as well but not for payload limitations like you, but because I don't see a real requirement for and would focus on improving LCA + developing AURA UCAV instead!

AMCA specs are not really known, let alone fixed yet. They first wanted just a secondary fighter for strikes mainly, then IAF said they want a fully multi role fighter, without compromises and in the last reports they even said it will be more advanced than FGFA. The same oversetimations that we saw at LCA and that caused the problems and delays!

the main point is no one even trusted the DRDO capabilities to build LCA when the project comes up and then in the senctins comes up.....how could you say then india shouls have gone for co-developing and partner on LCA ..
as far as AMCA is concern , you may go against it , didn't bother anybody , it your personal wish , but i don't thing DRDO will came up in open with detail of the project at this stage just to make armchair gernals happy.....

 

[Black Widow]

Allthough It is not official AMCA thread, i would like to discuss AMCA here, coz AMCA is extension of LCA.. So I am not derailing the thread...
1. The IAF should freeze there requirement. IAF and DRDO must freeze the time bound requirement (this is what happen in corporate world, DRDO must kick hard IAF A**, they did lot of drama during LCA development)
2. Any next requirement of IAF will be covered in next batch/Block..
3. DRDO agree only to realistic requirement and complete it on time by any hook or crook (reverse-engineer, co-operation, tech transfer, spying )

Why AMCA????
1. To gain technological edge...
2. per flight cost of PAK-FA will be too high... AMCA will have less (assumption)
3. If we make it LO instead of VLO then also it will be an achivement. It will act as filler.

 

[MumbaiIndians]

Even I too had lot of heated discussion with him many times... just take what is valuable.. so far we have seen him never moved out of the topic...

Stick to the topic then.

Two trolls are enough to derail this thread. Do they need you?