HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions

[Sri]

Thanks... Weight mentioned seems to be closer to what Ajay shukla mentioned earlier.

The LCA’s designers say that the removal of telemetry instrumentation, which is essential during flight testing, will bring the Tejas’ weight down by as much as 300-400 kilos. Re-engineering some of the displays and sub-systems within the cockpit will lop off another 300 kilos; the weight reduction of 600-700 kilos is expected to allow the carriage of more weapons.

There is a lack of understanding about what the Tejas’ weight is, since all kinds of figures are bandied about. Let me clarify: The 10.5 tons that I wrote about in my last post is the total weight of the Tejas, with full fuel on board; all 7 pylons fitted but not carrying weapons; and two outboard missiles being carried. The maximum payload of the Tejas is 3.5 tons… carried on its pylons. This could be armament or external fuel tanks; if external fuel tanks are fitted, the weight of fuel will correspondingly bring down the weapons load carried.

But there’s a catch! The maximum take-off weight of the Tejas is 13 tons. So if you load the maximum payload of 3.5 tons onto the 10.5 ton fighter, your weight of 14 tons is beyond the maximum take-off weight. So you’ll have to shed one ton… or either internal fuel or external fuel/armaments. That’s what happens when a fighter’s weight goes beyond what was originally planned.

So the reduction of 600-700 kilos may not actually go into making the Tejas more manoeuvrable. This shaved off weight may be made up by allowing the Tejas to carry (close to) its full capacity of external fuel-cum-armament.


Broadsword: The Tejas LCA: improving performance with the current F-404 engine

 

[sancho]

@sancho and others

Can LCA MK1 Supercruse ? If not than LCA MK2 will? What will be the highest speed at which it can fly without using after burner?

Thanks

No it can't, LCA MK2 should have the same Mach 1.8 goal, but if SC is possible is not clear especially with the drag issues and the high temps in India. Let's wait and see.

Weight : Under control , some 2 year ago it was 600-700 kg heavier, look like that problem has been solved (open 2 year old discussion on BharatRakshak you will find this issue)
High speed: 1.4 Mach achieved till date..

And forum talk on BR is a more reliable source than ADA's and GoI's official specs? As shown in post #7756, Mach 1.6 was achieved at ceilling altitude (15Km) and the weight in 2011 was 6560Kg (1t higher than planned). The even newer government site shows a clean take off weight of 9500Kg, with around 2500Kg internal fuel, some other fluids and the weight of the pilot, it should be clear that the empty weight is still well above 6000Kg.

 

[RPK]

Aeronautical Development Agency, the DRDO lab, which has built Tejas, the indigenous light combat aircraft, in collaboration with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is confident that it will be able to adhere to the September, 2013, deadline for gaining Initial Operational Clearance 2 (IOC 2). The DRDO official spokesperson, Ravi Gupta in a written response to a questionnaire, said: ‘The action plan to complete the flight test activities to achieve the IOC-2 certification is in progress and reviewed on weekly target basis. Eight aircrafts are functional in flight Line to complete the flight tests. We will be able to achieve the deadline of end-September ’13 for IOC 2.’ The IAF had sought 1200-plus changes in the Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft that received IOC 1 certification in January, 2011, as it was found wanting even in terms of the diluted air staff qualitative requirement (AQR). Now as Gupta informed:

‘The IAF had sought … improvements, mostly aiming at enhancing performance and reliability under extreme conditions. These included improvements in Pilot-Vehicle Interface, Brake Management System, Landing Gear, Fuel Systems, mid-air Escape systems and some aspects of Flight Control Laws. The IAF had also sought few design improvements for easier aircraft maintenance. Majority of improvements are implemented and incorporated in one of the LSP aircraft.’

DRDO confident of meeting Op clearance deadline for Tejas | Millennium Post

 

[Sri]

Looks interesting... First they asked for extension to Nov 2013 and now they are confident that they can complete by Sep 13.
If ADA had followed this approach earlier then LCA would have been in Service.

 

[sms]

The IAF had sought 1200-plus changes in the Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft that received IOC 1 certification in January, 2011, as it was found wanting even in terms of the diluted air staff qualitative requirement (AQR). Now as Gupta informed:

Some time I pity DRDO/ ADA team!!

Kudos to IAF to consistently managing a moving goal post. I'd not be surprised if they come back with 1 million change request as a prerequisite for FOC

 

[Black Widow]

Some time I pity DRDO/ ADA team!!

Kudos to IAF to consistently managing a moving goal post. I'd not be surprised if they come back with 1 million change request as a prerequisite for FOC

I wish DRDO/ADA should start working on kick back, 1% to politician, 1% to bureaucrats and rest 1% to IAF officials.. They are trying there level best to sabotage LCA.. Point is simple, if DRDO and ADA can make fighter plane, there income will seize...

As ADA is government agency they are unable to take tough decision. I propose ADA to sue IAF for shifting goal posts.. ADA should change its work-style. They take order from IAF with a condition that the goal-post/requirement will not change once freeze, and IAF will be bound to take the orders they have given..

 

[indian_foxhound]

 

[rockstarIN]

I wish DRDO/ADA should start working on kick back, 1% to politician, 1% to bureaucrats and rest 1% to IAF officials.. They are trying there level best to sabotage LCA.. Point is simple, if DRDO and ADA can make fighter plane, there income will seize...

As ADA is government agency they are unable to take tough decision. I propose ADA to sue IAF for shifting goal posts.. ADA should change its work-style. They take order from IAF with a condition that the goal-post/requirement will not change once freeze, and IAF will be bound to take the orders they have given..

Give it to test in Is AF and they may be call it 'desert fighter' then only our beloved IAF will accept it, just like Arjun.

 

[Manindra]

Aeronautical Development Agency, the DRDO lab, which has built Tejas, the indigenous light combat aircraft, in collaboration with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is confident that it will be able to adhere to the September, 2013, deadline for gaining Initial Operational Clearance 2 (IOC 2). The DRDO official spokesperson, Ravi Gupta in a written response to a questionnaire, said: ‘The action plan to complete the flight test activities to achieve the IOC-2 certification is in progress and reviewed on weekly target basis. Eight aircrafts are functional in flight Line to complete the flight tests. We will be able to achieve the deadline of end-September ’13 for IOC 2.’ The IAF had sought 1200-plus changes in the Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft that received IOC 1 certification in January, 2011, as it was found wanting even in terms of the diluted air staff qualitative requirement (AQR). Now as Gupta informed:

‘The IAF had sought … improvements, mostly aiming at enhancing performance and reliability under extreme conditions. These included improvements in Pilot-Vehicle Interface, Brake Management System, Landing Gear, Fuel Systems, mid-air Escape systems and some aspects of Flight Control Laws. The IAF had also sought few design improvements for easier aircraft maintenance. Majority of improvements are implemented and incorporated in one of the LSP aircraft.’

DRDO confident of meeting Op clearance deadline for Tejas | Millennium Post

But news come from DRDO that IOC2 deadline extended for two month and I did' believe that they achieve in their timeframe.

I think these stupid defence journalists pick up some old story add some spice and publish it.

 

[vsdave2302]

Some time I pity DRDO/ ADA team!!

Kudos to IAF to consistently managing a moving goal post. I'd not be surprised if they come back with 1 million change request as a prerequisite for FOC

Not 1200 changes but 1200 test points to be cleared. Between 80-120 are cleared every month. Almost 2 points every flight.

 

[Manindra]

Not 1200 changes but 1200 test points to be cleared. Between 80-120 are cleared every month. Almost 2 points every flight.

So IAF would have find more than 10000 test points to delay LCA for sufficient time

 

[Black Widow]

Give it to test in Is AF and they may be call it 'desert fighter' then only our beloved IAF will accept it, just like Arjun.

The Govt and IAF officials trust Foreign analyst more. That's why Government a$$ was on fire as TIME mention "Manmohan Singh as Underachiver".


I doubt bro, Some intelliegnt PDF member once said, IA is Happy with blind T72 against Arjuna, and Happy to fly century (half century) old MiG21 against brand new LCA..

Young fighter life and Indian security cost less than there sex trip of pataya.. Next time if you see any Military official son driving Yamaha R1/Hayabusa/Honda CBR1000R. Remember it is bought from blood money. Those BMW/Audi have blood spot of our young pilots.

 

[vsdave2302]

Ajay Shukla article recently published says that LCA tejas' top speed is arround 2000 KMPH. Not bad.



After two decades of development and the expenditure of some Rs 8,000 crore, the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is nearing operational service in the Indian Air Force (IAF). With Final Operational Clearance (FOC) targeted for end-2014, an Indian light fighter would be flying combat missions in any conflict from 2015 onwards. Given that this is India's first modern combat fighter, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) - the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) body that oversees the Tejas project - has developed its debut fighter quickly and cheaply.

It is time to induct the Tejas into the IAF in large numbers, not just to phase out the MiG-21, but also to let line pilots develop confidence in the fighter and allow their feedback to inform further development. But the ministry of defence (MoD) has unwisely decided to build just two squadrons of the already developed aircraft - called Tejas Mark I - and to start developing an even more capable Tejas Mark II. This is an enormous blunder for at least three reasons.

Firstly, as testified by the IAF test pilots who have flown the Tejas through more than a thousand hours of flight-testing, the current version of the fighter, i.e. the Tejas Mark I, is already a world-class fighter that has achieved most performance landmarks that the IAF had demanded. It flies at Mach 1.6 (about 2,000 kmph), a speed that the IAF is satisfied with. Its state-of-the-art quadruplex digital flight control system makes it a manoeuvrable and easy-to-fly fighter, unlike the unforgiving MiG-21 that it is slated to replace. The Tejas has not had a single accident so far, testifying to the stability of its design.

Another key measure of a fighter's capability is the Angle of Attack (AoA) it can achieve. The higher the AoA, the more lift that is generated, allowing a fighter to get airborne at slower speeds from short airstrips, e.g. aircraft carriers. The IAF had demanded an AoA of 26 degrees for the Tejas. The Tejas has already been tested to 24 degrees, and is on course to achieve that target.

Says Air Commodore (Retd) Parvez Khokhar, who was for years the chief test pilot of the Tejas programme: "The Tejas Mark I is far superior to the MiG-21 fleet that the IAF would have to operate to the end of this decade. In key respects, it is a better fighter than even the Mirage 2000. The Tejas Mark I should enter the IAF's combat fleet in larger numbers and the Tejas Mark II scaled down. This would allow the air force to retire the MiG-21 fleet sooner."

For this, the MoD must review its current plan to build just forty Tejas Mark I fighters, and embark upon another risky adventure to develop a more powerful, capable fighter. Since this would take at least four years of development work, the IAF would not start receiving the Tejas Mark II until 2018.

Furthermore, developing an ambitiously-framed Tejas Mark II would be dogged by uncertainty. To give the Mark II additional power, ADA plans to replace the Mark I's General Electric F-404 engine, which develops barely 80 KiloNewtons of thrust, with a more recent General Electric F-414 engine that will provide 90-96 KiloNewtons. But an internal ADA study has found that there may eventually be no benefit from this upgrade, since the Tejas' fuselage would have to be significantly redesigned to accommodate the bulkier, heavier F-414. All this added weight, the study concludes, would neutralise the new engine's added power. Furthermore, there is a longstanding design flaw in the Tejas air intake, which allows barely enough air to be sucked in for the current F-404 engine. Fitting the more powerful F-414 would require the air intakes to be enlarged as well. And the rearrangement of so many major aerostructures would shift the Mark II's centre of gravity, necessitating the shifting around of other components to get the balance right.

Instead of this major redesign, loaded with the likelihood of further delays, it would be far more prudent to order more Tejas Mark I, while restricting the scope of the Mark II upgrade. This is where the third major benefit would come in - through the early activation of a mass production line on which Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) could build fighters quickly. Currently, the tiny volume of orders (20 Mark I ordered, 20 more in the pipeline) prevents HAL from ramping up its supply chains and investing in an assembly line that can churn out at least ten fighters a year. So slow is the current process that HAL will deliver the first Tejas Mark I in mid-2014; the second in late-2014; and just three Tejas in 2015.

Given the need to replace the MiG-21 quickly, as also the need to indigenise our arsenal, this is appallingly slow. Defence Minister A K Antony, at the annual Tejas Review Meeting on June 24, promised HAL Rs 1,500 crore for setting up the Tejas assembly line. But that is missing the wood for the trees; what use is an assembly line in the absence of orders?

What is needed then is an immediate IAF order for at least three squadrons of Tejas Mark I, which would galvanise HAL and the supply chains into activity. While releasing Rs 1,500 crore to HAL, instructions must be issued that the production line must deliver six Tejas Mark I fighters in 2014, and hit its production target of ten fighters per year in 2015. Meanwhile the Tejas Mark II must be fully developed by 2016. This would require it to be less ambitious, restricting itself to modernizing avionics; fitting an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar; mounting more advanced air-to-air missiles; developing an onboard oxygen-generating system; and equipping the fighter with a mid-air refuelling system to increase its range.

A bird in the hand | Business Standard

 

[vsdave2302]

Top speed of MK 2 may roughly be work out.

ADA says that 3% performance improvement will come from refine aerodynamic and new engine will generate at least 20% more power.

So It could be roughly

1.6*1.03*1.2= Mach 1.97 ~ mach 2 not bad.

Article says that it is tested for 24 degree AOA & shall be increased to 26 degree in Mk 1. So we may expect 28 to 30 degree for MK2.

MK2 will be able to carry 5.6 ton of load. That is very decent.

I do not agree that MK2 should not develop. I would rather say that we should keep developing new variant Like Sukhoi series such as Su 27,30,35,37 etc.

 

[rockstarIN]

Top speed of MK 2 may roughly be work out.

ADA says that 3% performance improvement will come from refine aerodynamic and new engine will generate at least 20% more power.

So It could be roughly

1.6*1.03*1.2= Mach 1.97 ~ mach 2 not bad.

Article says that it is tested for 24 degree AOA & shall be increased to 26 degree in Mk 1. So we may expect 28 to 30 degree for MK2.

MK2 will be able to carry 5.6 ton of load. That is very decent.

I do not agree that MK2 should not develop. I would rather say that we should keep developing new variant Like Sukhoi series such as Su 27,30,35,37 etc.

LCA Mk2 will eventually match M2k-9 with one less hard point. IAF will be very happy once it is received by them in full configuration.