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Lol at all you guys calling the LCA A failure and whatever. From where India has come from ie ZERO to where it is today is simply night and day. Today India truly is one of the leaders of the aerospace industry- no one will question this if they know what they are talking about. Very few nations have the capacity and capability to have done what India has done under the time it has with the challenges it has faced (sanctions, low funding levels, non-exstent technical base etc). Even if today India is not where everyone would ideally like it to be, the only way is up now- the sky's the limit!!


The foundation India now has will only pay dividends in the coming years/decade.



Everyone has to start somewhere- if it were easy, everyone would do it!!


The good thing about a first project is you only have to do it once.
 
India should concentrate on joint ventures and abandon Tejas......
Same money can be diverted towards FGFA and that plane will flying In India way sooner than Tejas

We have already committed 30 billion dollars for the FGFA program over the next several years, with 5-6 billion dollars at the initial stage itself. How much more should we commit? What magic would the paltry 1 billion or so diverted from the tejas program do to accelerate the FGFA, that the 30 billion would not?

Succesfully completing the Tejas program will ensure that Rafale will be the last foreign fighter that India purchases, with no design share of its own. If we abandon Tejas, we will forever be dependent on foreign aircrafts, which does not go well with India's ambitions.
 
Lol at all you guys calling the LCA A failure and whatever. From where India has come from ie ZERO to where it is today is simply night and day. Today India truly is one of the leaders of the aerospace industry- no one will question this if they know what they are talking about. Very few nations have the capacity and capability to have done what India has done under the time it has with the challenges it has faced (sanctions, low funding levels, non-exstent technical base etc). Even if today India is not where everyone would ideally like it to be, the only way is up now- the sky's the limit!!


The foundation India now has will only pay dividends in the coming years/decade.



Everyone has to start somewhere- if it were easy, everyone would do it!!


The good thing about a first project is you only have to do it once.

we should show support to all hard workers in HAL-ADA , who could leave the country and join some rich paying company but rather chose to work for their nation , even then having to listen to our ungrateful chatter !
 
^^ Project Devil was complete failure.

Had we given up the efforts to develop missiles, what would be the situation today?

Tejas is very important, unless we learn to build a 4th gen fighter on our own(even without having indigenous engine) we can't move to 4.75th, 5th gen fighters and AURA

Missiles are a different ball game..
Nobody sells you strategic missiles..you have to make your own...
But Jet planes..too much TOT and joint ventures are available out there...and that's a quicker way to learn than the Tejas.
 
Missiles are a different ball game..
Nobody sells you strategic missiles..you have to make your own...
But Jet planes..too much TOT and joint ventures are available out there...and that's a quicker way to learn than the Tejas.

Tejas mk1 is here,and mk2 i underdevelopment,now you want us to scrap Tejas program and enter into a new JV??
 
Missiles are a different ball game..
Nobody sells you strategic missiles..you have to make your own...
But Jet planes..too much TOT and joint ventures are available out there...and that's a quicker way to learn than the Tejas.
Quicker way to learn sure but not the most effective way long term. Look at what India is doing- getting the best 4.5++ gen fighter out there with significant ToT (Rafale), simultaneously entering into a JV for a 5th (FGFA) fighter all whilst perusing Self reliance (LCA). Cleverly and shrewdly all these projects are independent of one another and will ensure India will get the best out there whilst also devloping its own organic capabilities.

Best of all worlds.
 
Missiles are a different ball game..
Nobody sells you strategic missiles..you have to make your own...
But Jet planes..too much TOT and joint ventures are available out there...and that's a quicker way to learn than the Tejas.

I have seen ToT quite closely. and I have to respectfully disagree.
 
India should concentrate on joint ventures and abandon Tejas......
Same money can be diverted towards FGFA and that plane will flying In India way sooner than Tejas

As often said, 2 different fighter projects with different aims and different requirements!

LCA project - priority to set up an Indian aero industry, to develop and produce as many parts of the fighter in India
LCA fighter - cost-effective low end interceptor with CAS capability

FGFA project - fast and easy approach to get a NG fighter, NG techs and capabilities, according to Indian requirements, with parts of the development and the full production in India
FGFA fighter - NG air superiority and deep strike fighter at the high end of IAF


So there is neither a point to cancel LCA, nor to compare it to FGFA development, since India needs both for the industrial and operational needs!
 
I have seen ToT quite closely. and I have to respectfully disagree.

Always depending on how good your position is to negotiate. ToT when India was a simple buyer obviously was lower, or for less important parts, than it is today in joint developments or JVs, that sometimes are even based on Indian requirements. The situation today is way different like the MMRCA and our demands for example shows and that's why co-developments and JVs with ToT is the key for us to get fast and easy to high techs (FGFA, Brahmos, MTA, Barak 8, Maitri).
 
Always depending on how good your position is to negotiate. ToT when India was a simple buyer obviously was lower, or for less important parts, than it is today in joint developments or JVs, that sometimes are even based on Indian requirements. The situation today is way different like the MMRCA and our demands for example shows and that's why co-developments and JVs with ToT is the key for us to get fast and easy to high techs (FGFA, Brahmos, MTA, Barak 8, Maitri).

You will never devlop the skill and protocols you need for a product unless you have been responsible for the entire PLM of the product, in ToT your role starts after the original manufacturer has gone through design validation, design Fmea, process fmea, early launch containment, DVP&R, non conforming material process. So by the time the product reaches you, the design, the process, the validation, and quality check for every product is frozen. In other words, you don't get to learn anything in the process. You dont develop engineers and managers who can innovate and lead from thier own experience, you get engineers and managers who can follow instructions.
 
You will never devlop the skill and protocols you need for a product unless you have been responsible for the entire PLM of the product, in ToT your role starts after the original manufacturer has gone through design validation, design Fmea, process fmea, early launch containment, DVP&R, non conforming material process. So by the time the product reaches you, the design, the process, the validation, and quality check for every product is frozen. In other words, you don't get to learn anything in the process. You dont develop engineers and managers who can innovate and lead from thier own experience, you get engineers and managers who can follow instructions.

Take the Brahmos co-development for example, without Russian tot especially on the propulsion and seeker, we wouldn't have such a weapon in our inventory today. We have it, because we used the co-development to include what we was able to do so far and got the part that we couldn't do from the Russians. Now we are at a level to further develop the missile to new varients, applications and even with NG versions in mind.
Same goes for the Maitri SAM, which also is developed according to Indian requirements with the techs that we can't provide and is meant to add French parts and capabilities that we don't have yet.
FGFA, we include materials, coatings, avionics, while we get ToT of the most powerful AESA radar, NG engines and other techs that we aren't able to develop on our own...
...
...

On the other side we have LCA, that sadly was developed with waaay too many indigenous parts in fields where we wasn't realistically able to provide something and that's why the project suffered all the delays and problems and why it will be inducted only decades behind schedule.

Also the Kaveri engine, developed alone, failed completetly and not ready to power an operational fighter anytime soon if we keep doing it alone. So all the money and time was wasted and now we search for a co-development or JV to fix the problems.

LCA and Kaveri as programs were still important, but overestimating your capabilities with the wrong idea that you have to develop anything on your own will lead us nowhere as these developments sadly proved. As I said, times have changed and today we can demand way more than we could in the past and why co-developments and JVs under our requirements are so important for India, if we don't want to remain a generation behind China, Russia or the West and want to catch up faster.
 
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