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Price Talks Imminent On GE F414 Engine For India LCA

By Neelam Mathews
NEW DELHI

Price negotiations will begin soon for 99 General Electric F414 fighter jet engines selected to power the Mk II version of the Indian Air Force’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

India’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) awarded the contract on Oct. 1, and it is expected to be signed in a few months (Aerospace DAILY, Oct. 1).

The F414 engine was in the running along with the EuroJet EJ-200. The contract’s value cannot be confirmed until it is finalized, a Defense Research Development Organization spokesman says. “We could always go for more [engines],” he adds.

The selection follows earlier GE engine buys for the Indian Air Force (IAF). In 2007, India purchased 24 F404 GE engines, and in 2004 the country bought 17 F404 engines to power a limited series of operational production aircraft and LCA naval prototypes.

The F414-GE-INS6 is the highest-thrust F414 model. It boasts Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC) and additional single-engine safety features. “GE keeps infusing the latest technology,” a company official says. “If, for instance, we have a version 12 of the blade, the customer gets just that.”

Helping seal the deal was GE’s offer to provide increased technical manpower and base workers in India to help develop the engine, officials said.

The contract requires 8-10 engines to be provided in fly-away condition, with the rest to be delivered in semi-knocked-down condition and assembled in India. The agreement also contains a 30% offset clause and will tap some of the 24 Indian companies that GE has certified. “The deliveries will depend on when the development phase of the LCA is over,” and official says.

A remaining point of contention is the technology transfer clause.

“The requirement and conditions were not clear,” an engine manufacturer says. “You cannot offer a product unless you know how it will be used. Besides, you need to consider which of the two technologies are more advanced.” GE requires U.S. government clearance for transfer of technology. “We can almost be sure there will be no transfer of crystal blades of the F414,” an analyst says.

India has expressed interest in the F/A-18 and F-16 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), which can carry an active electronically scanned array radar

There is speculation that the F414 decision is a sign that either the Gripen or F/A-18 — both contenders in India’s program for 126 MMRCAs — will gain a competitive edge. But since the engine comprises 20% of the total aircraft order’s cost, “this will not impact nor provide a financial advantage. The two contracts are not connected with each other at all,” IAF chief V.K. Naik says.

Indian industry says it is looking forward to working with GE in honoring its offset requirements. Quest Global signed an memorandum of understanding with GE a month ago to source assets for the F414. The company says it hopes to be involved in the project by using its current capability in engine design and components manufacturing.

“GE has a strong sourcing strategy ... and we are a part of it. We see Quest supplying seals, casings and engine accessories [for fuel systems] to GE,” says Nagabhushana Junjappa, Quest’s vp for strategy.

While the LCA Mk2 has been slated for production by 2014, that is seen as a distant dream, an analyst says. The new aircraft’s fuselage and components need to be modified and put through armament tests, and the behavioral patterns of the aircraft will change accordingly. The LCA Mk 2 also will need to undergo at least four technology demonstrators that will delay military commissioning beyond 2014, the analyst said.

India also has been in discussions to develop Kaveri, an indigenous engine, for the LCA. Technology and assistance discussions were held with Snecma last week. The Kaveri requires greater thrust and a reduction in weight, a spokesman says.
 
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Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: NEXT WEEK: A Series On The LCA Tejas

DSC00401-709529.JPG


A page from a new Indian defence magazine, a copy of which was sent to me today. Stay tuned for the series -- it starts a week from today.
 
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Any updates about the Radar procurement for LCA LSP 3... Is it confirmed that Elta EL/M-2052 has been finally shortlisted for procurement..?

Wiki says: The development of an AESA radar for the Tejas is expected to begin pending the selection of an developmental partner.The contenders for the contract are the European Consortium EADS and the Israeli company Elta.The initial contract will see the co-development of 10 prototypes.

I don't see or find EADS's involvement anywhere as in no updates about it's involvement is mentioned anywhere....

Can I please knoe the exact capabilities of the Elta's radar.... That is going to be incorporated in the LSP 3...

Thanks...
 
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‘Given the Features and Functionality of the Tejas, We Feel the Weight is Reasonable’
Director ADA, P.S. Subramanyam


What is the current status of the LCA programme?


We have developed 2 technology demonstrators TD-1 and TD-2; we have the four prototypes PV-1, PV-2, PV-3 and PV-4. The Limited Series Production aircraft ranging from LSP-1 to LSP-4 are all flying. TD-1, TD-2 and PV-1 have now become outdated and are used for ground testing or testing of equipment that needs to be developed for the Tejas. All the aircraft from PV-2 onwards are participating in the flying test campaign. LSP-5 is currently the final ‘Standard of Preparation’ that we will deliver to the Indian Air Force (IAF) and this aircraft is expected to fly this month. LSP-6 and LSP-7 will follow and have been earmarked for the user evaluation by pilots belonging to the Aircraft Systems and Testing Establishment (ASTE).

Both the IAF and the Indian Navy have committed some money for the Tejas Mk-2 which will be equipped with a higher performing engine. We now have a concurrent programme to develop the Tejas Mk-2 version for the IAF and the Indian Navy. The PV-5 which is a trainer version of the Tejas’ is flying and another aircraft PV-6 is expected to fly by the end of this year. The maiden flight of the Tejas Mk-2 is expected to take place in December 2014 and production will begin in December 2016.

What is the current order book for the Tejas and what orders can be expected in the future?

Based on the progress observed by the IAF an order for 20 ‘Tejas’ fighters was placed by the IAF in 2006. Further developments in the LCA programme have resulted in order for another 20 aircraft. There exists a requirement on paper for 100 fighters (five squadrons) for the IAF and a 50 for the Indian Navy, which has been put up to the government of India. The technology growth in engines has been so rapid that is has been very difficult to keep pace with the technology. As a result, the Kaveri engine which we began with in the early Nineties is now unable to match the performance requirements demanded by the user. We are confident that the Tejas equipped with the alternate engine will provide the IAF with a fighter which offers contemporary performance over a decade of service.

What is the configuration of the LSP versions and what changes will Mk-2 versions entail?

Equipment-fit LSP-wise is in the final standard of preparation for the IAF. All the sensors, communication equipment and weapons required for the current Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) are present. Also since we were designing a fighter of this class for the first time, we were very conservative in the design. Especially when it came to structural strength characteristics and this has lead to an increase in weight. Weight optimisation will be undertaken for the Tejas Mk-2 variant to reduce its weight. The Mk-2 version will also have better Centre of Gravity (CG) management and maintainability features. Within the programme feasibility, we will be revamping the cockpit electronics to bring it more up to date with technologies that will be prevalent around 2016. There will be advanced electronics, improved cockpit displays and interfaces which will remain contemporary even in the 2020’s.
The Tejas Mk-2 will feature an alternate engine which will offer a performance increase of about 10 per cent. The engine change for Mk-2 will result in the rear fuselage being changed and intakes having to be redesigned. All these structural changes will also reflect in drawing changes and parts fabrication. The digital Fly by Wire (FBW) Flight Control System (FCS) will not change. We do not see much impact when it comes to hydraulics, electronics and undercarriage, etc. With regards to the developmental programme this will not be a major impact.

What is the update on the LCA Naval version?

The ‘Power On’ for the Navy version has to take place where we test all the functions; this will be followed by four to six weeks of exhaustive testing. If we are able to demonstrate the naval variant at the Shore Based Test Facility (SBTF) in Goa, then the navy may consider orders for the Mk-1 variant of Tejas itself, to fill the gap for light fighters to operate off its careers. We also expect the navy to order around 2 squadrons of the Mk-2 variant. Initial funding of about Rs 900 crore was obtained for the Naval variant in 2003, as we went along there were many challenges and we found that a major portion of the structure had to be strengthened, nose droop was required, extra control surfaces and the flight control system of Naval variant differs from the IAF variant because of the low speed landing requirements of the LCA Navy. In hindsight, it would have been easier to design the naval variant first and then quickly move onto the air force variant and not the other way around. Our initial estimates on the amount of work required on the Naval variant were not quite accurate and the programme gave us some surprises.

What is being done to address concerns that the LCA is overweight?

When you consider the amount of features and functionality given in the Tejas, we feel the weight is reasonable. We had planned initially for a fighter in the 5.5 tonne category but currently it has grown to about 6.5 tonne. The penalty of the weight increase is visible in one or two performance parameters. Some parameters like the sustained turn rate and the severity of other performance requirements earlier are not there now because of change in weapon systems. Particularly guided missiles, which today are all aspect missiles slaved to Helmet Mounted Display Systems (HMDS), advanced electronics and radar. Due to the weight growth, there have been certain deviations in the performance parameters. The IAF has validated these deviations to be compensated by advanced weapon systems which were not available in 1985. We will not incorporate any changes in the Mk-1 version as it is ready for production. In the Mk-2 version of Tejas, we expect to see weight savings of around 300 to 500Kg which will come from weight optimisation in the aircraft structures alone.

What is required to ensure CEMILAC clearance will be obtained in December, followed by the IOC?

The CEMILAC clearance is actually a ‘Release to Certification’, with this certification the Tejas can be cleared for use by the operator i.e. IAF. It was being flown till now by pilots belonging to the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC), the ‘Release to Certification’ will see the Tejas being flown by operational pilots of the IAF. To get CEMILAC certification, a process begins and we have to capture all data that has been generated over the last 20 years and put it through filters to address problems if any. CEMILAC will check all the data we provide and match performance figures for the aircraft and then they approve as a third party agency, the ‘Standard of Preparation’. This will happen by December. We have around 300 people working on all the design data generated and double checking the same. We have not encountered any major issues as part of the certification process so far. In the LCA programme, quality has been given the highest priority.

The IOC is an understanding with the users i.e. IAF, telling CEMILAC to clear the aircraft in this particular standard of preparation. We will be providing the IAF with an aircraft that is equipped with a specific set of sensors, weapons, avionics, etc. and a particular standard of performance and functionality as declared in the ‘Standard of Preparation’. The IOC is a nomenclature used by the IAF and the ‘Release to Certification’ is provided by CEMILAC. The IAF will move towards FOC for the Tejas in 2014. We have to add a new CCM, BVR, extra weapons and it will also have a mid-air refueling system along with new drop tanks and few other refinements. We look at adding these features in the second lot of 20 aircraft.

FORCE - A Complete News Magazine on National Security - Defence Magazine
 
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What is being done to address concerns that the LCA is overweight?

When you consider the amount of features and functionality given in the Tejas, we feel the weight is reasonable. We had planned initially for a fighter in the 5.5 tonne category but currently it has grown to about 6.5 tonne. The penalty of the weight increase is visible in one or two performance parameters. Some parameters like the sustained turn rate and the severity of other performance requirements earlier are not there now because of change in weapon systems. Particularly guided missiles, which today are all aspect missiles slaved to Helmet Mounted Display Systems (HMDS), advanced electronics and radar. Due to the weight growth, there have been certain deviations in the performance parameters. The IAF has validated these deviations to be compensated by advanced weapon systems which were not available in 1985. We will not incorporate any changes in the Mk-1 version as it is ready for production. In the Mk-2 version of Tejas, we expect to see weight savings of around 300 to 500Kg which will come from weight optimisation in the aircraft structures alone.

Strange, HAL is showing these specs now:

CIMG2779.JPG



Empty weight: 5680Kg

So had the EADS consultancy doesn't make any improvement, or is the Force magazin writing their usual stuff?
 
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Strange, HAL is showing these specs now:

CIMG2779.JPG



Empty weight: 5680Kg

So had the EADS consultancy doesn't make any improvement, or is the Force magazin writing their usual stuff?

This seems very, very old pic. Look at the combat radius.
 
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Strange, HAL is showing these specs now:

CIMG2779.JPG



Empty weight: 5680Kg

So had the EADS consultancy doesn't make any improvement, or is the Force magazin writing their usual stuff?

Hmmm ..... can some one tell what happened to PV5?? ... the IOC is nearing and it is no where near sight.. any update on this will be helpful...
 
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Good details.

The digital Fly by Wire (FBW) Flight Control System (FCS) will not change. We do not see much impact when it comes to hydraulics, electronics and undercarriage, etc.

This means Tejas's FBW and electronics are advanced enough to retain in mk II as well.

Some parameters like the sustained turn rate and the severity of other performance requirements earlier are not there now because of change in weapon systems. Particularly guided missiles, which today are all aspect missiles slaved to Helmet Mounted Display Systems (HMDS), advanced electronics and radar.

Which HMDS Tejas will get? Elbit's or DRDO's? Most probably Israeli.
 
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Please refer to the picture posted in post 3246 (above)

'when will India fly its indigenous fighter aircraft'

Your new defence magazine is worng on all accounts.
I believe Teja prototype has been flying, however flying is not enough to be a fighter.
Honestly, even K8 can drop bombs and fire missiles.
Next, It is not Teja which is indigenous, it is the word itself which is indigenous and the mag proved it by taking its start from same claim.

Please, drop this MKII humiliation.... what ever new will come will have will have more resemblance to other design concepts rather than Teja.

India will never ever dare to venture into delta wing development and this is not difficult to say after knowing the reasons of its failure.

Tejas frame is heavier than the thrust of its selected engine a very basic design error but matter most.
You need to redesign Teja to a twin engine concept, a whole new design.
Teja have low angle of attack hence need canards.
It is not agile dog fighter hence needed rework in its wing design.
Teja's cockpit shown in pictures is not the same as in the flying prototypes... it means Teja design is not frozen yet. which leads to the perception that every new Teja will be slightly advance in avionics from its predecessor.

Teja production will be waste of money but will serve other objectives than fighting wars.

I don't know what to say more!
 
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Please refer to the picture posted in post 3246 (above)



Your new defence magazine is worng on all accounts.
I believe Teja prototype has been flying, however flying is not enough to be a fighter.
Honestly, even K8 can drop bombs and fire missiles.
Next, It is not Teja which is indigenous, it is the word itself which is indigenous and the mag proved it by taking its start from same claim.

Please, drop this MKII humiliation.... what ever new will come will have will have more resemblance to other design concepts rather than Teja.

India will never ever dare to venture into delta wing development and this is not difficult to say after knowing the reasons of its failure.

Tejas frame is heavier than the thrust of its selected engine a very basic design error but matter most.
You need to redesign Teja to a twin engine concept, a whole new design.
Teja have low angle of attack hence need canards.
It is not agile dog fighter hence needed rework in its wing design.
Teja's cockpit shown in pictures is not the same as in the flying prototypes... it means Teja design is not frozen yet. which leads to the perception that every new Teja will be slightly advance in avionics from its predecessor.

Teja production will be waste of money but will serve other objectives than fighting wars.

I don't know what to say more!

Ah...nice rant. What bothers you? Tejas is overweight because it has a lot more avionics inside and a bigger radar, more robust landing gear and its TWR is already high. But our IAF was not satisfied. The design parameters have now been changed and the flight envelope needed to be advanced. The major addition of weight is done by the HMD system that has been added and the FCS and the FADEC. The were not in the first GSQR floated in 1989.

Lets look at your glorification of delta canards. The LCA carries a cranked delta configuration and it is an interceptor. Why does it need canards? Canards have its own disadvantages. Delta configs bleed more energy in a turning fight and hence deltas always have less manuverablity compared to conventional swept wings.

And FYI the LCA MKII is not a dream and is a reality. Darn, the LCA 1 has enough TWR and infact more than the JF 17.
 
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What rant? what bother?
check your thread it is perhaps first post by any Pakistani since last 3000 posts.
I merely pointed out the misquotation at the cover of your defence magazine!

There got to be technical reasons behinds its delay and its design flaws are reality which you tried to cover up in your justifications..... though justification alone is no solution to answer the questions which your own media is asking in loud.

Next, I don't want to start a comparison here but i reject your claim that LCA exceeds JFT in any parameter let aside TWR.
I think you have not seen in Farnborough fully weighed JFT took off withing 400 meters.
 
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There got to be technical reasons behinds its delay and its design flaws are reality which you tried to cover up in your justifications..... though justification alone is no solution to answer the questions which your own media is asking in loud.

Next, I don't want to start a comparison here but i reject your claim that LCA exceeds JFT in any parameter let aside TWR.
I think you have not seen in Farnborough fully weighed JFT took off withing 400 meters.


Can you please enlighten me what are the design flaws you think Tejas has..

asking these because you seems to be more knowledgeable in this field of fighter aircraft design .


well my understanding so far is it is 18% over weight . and apart from that it doesnt have any thing bad. with existing engine and additional requirements (aesa)

we poor Indians are trying to make a

cheap Low Capabality Aircraft with high composite / quad FBW and unstable aerodynamic , aesa radar, inflight refueling, bvarm capable, carrier landing capable, fuel dump capable, aircraft.


one can do two things.

either watch others doing it and comment on their sufferings
or work like the other person and achieve

first one is really easy..
 
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