HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions-[Thread 2]

[Suriya]

What doubt exactly?

"That Tejas fight control is a version of the flight-control laws for the X-62", which isn't true.

 

[JamD]

"That Tejas fight control is a version of the flight-control laws for the X-62", which isn't true.

Oh I agree that that isn't true.

You can't take the FCS from an F16 and put it into a delta. That makes no sense. Sorry that I didn't make that clear in my post. I said you can learn many things/lessons that you can apply to the development of your own FCS for your application. This process is very helpful of course but FCS isn't a one size fits all kind of thing. Not yet at least.

 

[SQ8]

Oh I agree that that isn't true.

You can't take the FCS from an F16 and put it into a delta. That makes no sense. Sorry that I didn't make that clear in my post. I said you can learn many things/lessons that you can apply to the development of your own FCS for your application. This process is very helpful of course but FCS isn't a one size fits all kind of thing. Not yet at least.

I have great respect for the Tejas CLAW team - they did get massive support from LM to pull off what they needed to including a dedicated testbed but they did take a baseline and tune it very well for the Tejas

 

[MirageBlue]

I believe there might be some truth to the claims that is then dressed up and presented as something else. What the likely story is:
People from DRDO were sent to various countries to learn the ropes. Lockheed Martin and Dassault in particular. I am fairly sure that this did indeed happen. LM stopped collaboration after the nuclear tests in 1998. It is very possible that DRDO engineers had the chance to learn and develop a version of the flight-control laws for the X-62. And after 1998 these engineers brought back that experience to India and helped develop the LCA's control laws. And then saying "X-62 flew better with LCA's control laws" is the usual bravado.

The deeper point to note is how deeply India has been collaborating with the west in aerospace and for how long. Do we seriously want to believe that 3-4 decades of exchanges have not benefited India greatly even if their final product (LCA) looks less than adequate? They have been playing the technologies game and in that game they have done extremely well. DRDO got flight control tech and engine tech from the west (LM and Dassault, respectively).

On the other hand, we have been playing the capabilities game and done pretty well too. As time has gone by and as our economy has faltered more and more, our technologies game has picked up an increasing amount of rot. We did pick up technologies too but only in a limited manner. We got the ability to manufacture JF-17's structure only. We have little to no experience with engines or flight control laws (https://quwa.org/2020/04/19/why-pac-needs-in-house-development-of-flight-control-systems-2/). It's only a matter of time before India's long-term technologies game beats the crap out of our short-term capabilities game, especially since we rely on buying a lot of our capability and our economy isn't able to support that approach anymore.

In a way what India did in the 90s, MAYBE we are doing with the Turks in 2020s. Just saying. And even that effort might lead us nowhere but it is super important exactly for the reason that we need to build technologies.

There was no bravado or fake claims about what was mentioned by the American test pilot. I will find that part of the book by Air Marshal Rajkumar, where he mentions this.

One thing that every single test pilot that has flown the LCA Tejas has remarked is that it has excellent flight characteristics and the control harmony, the responsiveness of the FCS is superb.

Interview with Tejas test pilot Group Captain Rajeev Joshi

What is the best thing about it?

“The small size and the good sensor package. The ability of the avionics design to absorb changes and upgrades seamlessly is a positive advantage. The biggest strength of the programme comes from the fact that the design and integration is indigenous. This gives the aircraft the ability to match the best in terms of features, utilities and modes.

Small size and low (radar) signature, coupled with a good sensor package, puts the Tejas in a good advantageous spot with respect to bigger birds. The typical ‘first look, first kill’ works very well for the Tejas in a fight, both in the beyond visual and the visual realms.

The Helmet Mounted Display System works well in a snap engagement and the coupled missile ‘line of sight’ (LOS) modes allow the first shot to be good. The HMDS is a very versatile piece of equipment for a number of tasks.

The handling of the flight control system is fabulous and is being refined continuously. Based on the operational feedback from the fleet, the build up of rates is being refined to make it crisper and yet more responsive. In this area too, the 100% indigenous flight control system is a winner. It’s ours, and can be tweaked continuously. The process is very robust and the feedback about handling and what would ‘feel’ better is addressed very quickly.

The full authority Auto Low Speed Recovery makes the aircraft truly carefree, more so than any other fighter in the world. This may be contested, but I’m willing to defend this position in a debate! The ALSR and other higher control law modes put this a notch higher. Throw it around as much as you can — when she says ‘no’, she will take over and recover the situation for you. The control and handling in high gain tasks like aerial refuelling is superb. It will beat contemporaries or older birds in this area. It really makes you feel like a great pilot!”

 

[MirageBlue]

I have great respect for the Tejas CLAW team - they did get massive support from LM to pull off what they needed to including a dedicated testbed but they did take a baseline and tune it very well for the Tejas

Originally Dassault offered India a triplex redundant analog FCS derived from the Mirage-2000 for the LCA. It was rejected by DRDO scientists who wanted the most modern and state of the art quadruplex fully digital FCS to be designed for the LCA. That was the reason that LM was chosen to support the LCA FCS development rather than Dassault.

BAe was also used as a consultant on the LCA FCS initially and they gave some crucial inputs. But as consultants, they give inputs, they don't do the work, as anyone who has worked with consultants will know.

The fact is that after all the computers and data was impounded by the Americans and the Indian scientists and engineers working on it were asked to leave the country immediately, Indian engineers re-started ALL the work from scratch in India itself, which was a mammoth task. I know a couple of people from that team personally and they have recounted how team members worked in shifts to have it going on 24 hours each weekday. People don't realize how amazing the work they did was.

The LCA CLAW team has been one of the biggest gains from the Tejas program, apart from the experience gained in composites, avionics integration and structures design and validation.

It is the primary reason why they are very comfortable with the idea of developing the FCS for Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA within a reasonable time. It would not have been possible if

 

[jk007]

Originally Dassault offered India a triplex redundant analog FCS derived from the Mirage-2000 for the LCA. It was rejected by DRDO scientists who wanted the most modern and state of the art quadruplex fully digital FCS to be designed for the LCA. That was the reason that LM was chosen to support the LCA FCS development rather than Dassault.

BAe was also used as a consultant on the LCA FCS initially and they gave some crucial inputs. But as consultants, they give inputs, they don't do the work, as anyone who has worked with consultants will know.

The fact is that after all the computers and data was impounded by the Americans and the Indian scientists and engineers working on it were asked to leave the country immediately, Indian engineers re-started ALL the work from scratch in India itself, which was a mammoth task. I know a couple of people from that team personally and they have recounted how team members worked in shifts to have it going on 24 hours each weekday. People don't realize how amazing the work they did was.

The LCA CLAW team has been one of the biggest gains from the Tejas program, apart from the experience gained in composites, avionics integration and structures design and validation.

It is the primary reason why they are very comfortable with the idea of developing the FCS for Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA within a reasonable time. It would not have been possible if

All this is good. But why is reluctance from IAF to purchase LCA in large numbers? Like why should parkkar "convince" them?

 

[JamD]

There was no bravado or fake claims about what was mentioned by the American test pilot. I will find that part of the book by Air Marshal Rajkumar, where he mentions this.

Please read what I wrote and don't put words in my mouth:

And after 1998 these engineers brought back that experience to India and helped develop the LCA's control laws. And then saying "X-62 flew better with LCA's control laws" is the usual bravado.

because...

You can't take the FCS from an F16 and put it into a delta. That makes no sense. Sorry that I didn't make that clear in my post. I said you can learn many things/lessons that you can apply to the development of your own FCS for your application. This process is very helpful of course but FCS isn't a one size fits all kind of thing. Not yet at least.

I think I've been very clear in my appreciation of the LCA team. Not sure what are arguing about.

All this is good. But why is reluctance from IAF to purchase LCA in large numbers? Like why should parkkar "convince" them?

If I had to put it in one sentence, it became operational too late. There is also some aspect of India having money to buy a lot of things from abroad so it feels no need to buy its own produdct because it has options. Otherwise, the LCA program has been very very succesful in building aerospace infrastructure in India. You can bet that the next aircraft project India will embark on it'll do very well. Nobody will be making fun of that then.

 

[NAVDEEP DHALIWAL]

All this is good. But why is reluctance from IAF to purchase LCA in large numbers? Like why should parkkar "convince" them?

Because FBW is mot everything. If u ask a person going to fight would u like a experimental vehicle or already fully developed when used by many plus as a bonus u also get kick backs .
I would go with fully developed 1. But ofcourse this a very short sighted view.
Look at pakistan AF , they make do with JF and now r in a position to further upgrade it.

Same thing with Tejas mk2 . It's 10yrs late but thank God not so old technology wise. That's why Tejas jokes although funny doesn't realy tell u the ground reality.

 

[jk007]

But ofcourse this a very short sighted view.
Look at pakistan AF , they make do with JF and now r in a position to further upgrade it.

Aren't you one of the supporters of "farmers" movement? Those "farmers" that had the govt successfully repeal the farm laws??

Many times, it amazes as to how many contractions a human being can hold and still be happy / confident, and think they can lecture others.
And you are talking about "short sighted" view??

From now on, look back and think that you are at least partially responsible for deaths of some farmers [no, not those rich fat "farmers" that are camped on the roads or their paid agents]....but the actual small farmers that try to make their lives better with hard-work.

You sir, have blood on your hands.....Next time, you read about farmers (i.e. real farmers) deaths, please think that you are partially responsible for at least some of them.

Please please enlighten us why those "farmers" are still camped on roads? What else is remaining to "achieve" (err...destroy)?
I guess you believe that those "farmers" that are camped on the roads are far far far far sighted.....

PS: A country that had so much hypocrites (including media) , that everyone knows the truth but refuse to say it or defend it, can never amount to much. It took the "farmers" movement to make me realise the limits of India.

Contrary to what is written in PDF, India is not even a comparision to china. India / Indians should not even dream of competing with China. China is a league of it's own. Credit to them. We, indians, can compare with Pakistan or Afghanistan, and leave it there.

Stupid / Idiot of me - it took so long for me to realise this.

PS#1: forgive me for this question - Are you a Jat or a communist? Please answer this one question please.


Mods - The repeal of farm laws had a huge impact on me (maybe, bought me to my senses). I had to ask these difficult questions to one of the supporters of those responsible for their repeal. Forgive me for diverting from the topic of the thread.

 

[Suriya]

All this is good. But why is reluctance from IAF to purchase LCA in large numbers? Like why should parkkar "convince" them?

Prime reason:
IAF wanted to buy 124 Rafale or Euro fighters which they thought was the solution for all their problems and they feared If IAF commits to LCA then GOI would cut or cancel MMRCA for budget shortfall. And see IAF fear came true, Modi bought 36 Rafales and forced them the buy 114 LCAs.

 

[NAVDEEP DHALIWAL]

Aren't you one of the supporters of "farmers" movement? Those "farmers" that had the govt successfully repeal the farm laws??

Many times, it amazes as to how many contractions a human being can hold and still be happy / confident, and think they can lecture others.
And you are talking about "short sighted" view??

From now on, look back and think that you are at least partially responsible for deaths of some farmers [no, not those rich fat "farmers" that are camped on the roads or their paid agents]....but the actual small farmers that try to make their lives better with hard-work.

You sir, have blood on your hands.....Next time, you read about farmers (i.e. real farmers) deaths, please think that you are partially responsible for at least some of them.

Please please enlighten us why those "farmers" are still camped on roads? What else is remaining to "achieve" (err...destroy)?
I guess you believe that those "farmers" that are camped on the roads are far far far far sighted.....

PS: A country that had so much hypocrites (including media) , that everyone knows the truth but refuse to say it or defend it, can never amount to much. It took the "farmers" movement to make me realise the limits of India.

Contrary to what is written in PDF, India is not even a comparision to china. India / Indians should not even dream of competing with China. China is a league of it's own. Credit to them. We, indians, can compare with Pakistan or Afghanistan, and leave it there.

Stupid / Idiot of me - it took so long for me to realise this.

PS#1: forgive me for this question - Are you a Jat or a communist? Please answer this one question please.


Mods - The repeal of farm laws had a huge impact on me (maybe, bought me to my senses). I had to ask these difficult questions to one of the supporters of those responsible for their repeal. Forgive me for diverting from the topic of the thread.

You know jack shit about farming. My whole family is either in farming , army etc

And for ur kind information, look at the history of Punjab. Punjabi never give rat *** about communists just like now they don't give a f×k abt modi.

As for you calling farmers rich cause they have the guts to stay on the reads, what kind of fkd up logic is that.
Try to sleep on road in heat and cold. And u can also feel very rich. Don't worry u can eat the same food also 4m farmers as well, so u will save money on food.

As far farmers blood, u don't know 1st thing about giving blood in the struggle, punjabi history is full of it. It's just unheard of in a democracy that's what makes me angry.

And to answer your question why farmers not moving , well cause of modi reputation of Jumlebaaz.

They will come back when law is officially called back in parliament. Modi words has zero credibility among farmers.


And how repealing the law affected you ?

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

All this is good. But why is reluctance from IAF to purchase LCA in large numbers? Like why should parkkar "convince" them?

Fighter needs to have IAF expectations which it actually did not meet atleast till 2014. It still does not meet some requirements even in FOC version. For example, the cannon is not operational. DRDO / ADA team argues gun is not important anymore in non contact air warfare. But IAF still wants them to proximity of Pakistani airbases.

Plus corruption had its attempt as well. One ex IAF chief is in jail for corruption in a different case, though might not be surprised if he was on a different company payroll as well.

The LCAs payload capabilities is something that ADA will keep updating. Recently it's payload was increased from 3.5t to 4t with updates in FCS. Initially it was certified for only 3.25t. The ADA expects to increase it further with refinement in FCS.
It's only after the first squadron was raised and pilots were impressed with it, IAF finally decided to take the plunge with more enthusiasm. It also gave them confidence that the Ada team can do Mk1A and Mk2 versions on time with improvements promised.

 

[Vanamali]

You know Tejas is a crappy pos when their own airforce rejects it.

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boss spare this thread with you enlightening posts... this is a sticky thread .. dont repeat your shit again and again like self suggestions.. if you have something to add for discussion pls do else you are free to think that this is test bed and leave us. Instead you can go to JF 17 thread and say its best and it will beat Tejas hands down any day.. you can do this 100 times in morning and 100 times before going to bed.

 

[Suriya]

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

Have a look here plz and then comment about this with confirmed news