HAL’s trainer aircraft headed for disaster as development costs soar

[MilSpec]

I don't think it's HAL alone, but as I mentioned earlier the attitude to want too much too fast. Producing an engine, doesn't mean that they have to develop a basic trainer, nor that the Indian forces would require another one. But HAL did not only wanted to develop HTT40 and IJT, but even has plans for an AJT, which is even more silly since the Hawk production is already going in a good scale. Even I as an nonprofessional can predict that IAF will not buy it, because they don't need it. So why does HAL or the industry as a whole look only on their policies and not on what is really needed for the forces and Indias defence?
That privat companies are driven by making money is nothing new and especially in the defence field, that can be a problem too. But DRDO, ADA, HAL...are government agencies, so they should have the priority to provide our forces with what they need. But it seems like showing off and making money has more importance today.

May be working in US for years has spoiled me, or the discipline and dedication I see all around has made me expect too much. I can tell you this I was involved in production design in India, the attitude seemed ok to me then, as that was the only environment I knew. I have been involved in design, execution and installation of 17 projects since then. Approach to problem solving, sticking to schedules, culture of commitment to work, resource planning -mein zameen aasmaan ka fark hai.

I honestly don't think building a prop plane, where the engine is already ready is a big problem. a (dedicated) team of 20 engineers, 20 odd technicians and few project managers can easily execute this project within 6-12 months.

I haven't lost all hopes for HAL yet, I knew a few brilliant engineer and managers in HAL back in the day, The only hope is when they rise to upper management, their spirit is still alive. -Maybe one day even i will go back

 

[sancho]

May be working in US for years has spoiled me, or the discipline and dedication I see all around has made me expect too much. I can tell you this I was involved in production design in India, the attitude seemed ok to me then, as that was the only environment I knew. I have been involved in design, execution and installation of 17 projects since then. Approach to problem solving, sticking to schedules, culture of commitment to work, resource planning -mein zameen aasmaan ka fark hai.

I honestly don't think building a prop plane, where the engine is already ready is a big problem. a (dedicated) team of 20 engineers, 20 odd technicians and few project managers can easily execute this project within 6-12 months.

I haven't lost all hopes for HAL yet, I knew a few brilliant engineer and managers in HAL back in the day, The only hope is when they rise to upper management, their spirit is still alive. -Maybe one day even i will go back

The points are made are aimed on the decision and project planning levels and there it clearly goes in the wrong directions, too much dreaming, too less rationalism.

I didn't said HAL can't build the HTT40, but only because they have the engine, doesn't mean they have to develop it, because they first have to see if our forces needs another trainer and that is not the case to start with. They should concentrate on developing things, that they either can provide now, or where no foreign alternative is available. That's why HTT40, an advanced trainer, or VIP, or 10t helicopters are just a waste of resources, while IJT, a naval Dhruv, Rudra, LCH, LCA and a naval 5th gen fighter should have prioirty!


Btw, since you were in the design field. What's your take on all the design problems of our indigenous aircrafts? Be it LCA, LCH, Saras, or IJT, all suffered from design issues, that caused weight, or drag problems. I was told by some Germans 2 years ago, that IJT looks not well designed and to have design issues, which required the additon of strakes (not sure if that was the right word) and other design changes. LCH had major drag issues and the air intakes were re-positioned for that, which surprised me too, since I thought things like that would have been noticed even during windtunnel tests. What's the root of these problems and how can we improve in this field?

 

[OrionHunter]

The plan to build a Basic Trainer Aircraft (BTA) at home is headed for a nosedive as defence ministry has to take a crucial call on going ahead with the project because of high costs involved. Whereas HAL’s own cost structure showed that at 2011 price for 106 aircraft, each HTT-40 will cost Rs 34.9 crore. If capital cost is added then the price tag goes up to Rs 37.95 crore.

Really? Is that big money? Compare it to the Rs 100,000 crores going to be put into that sinkhole called the Food Security Bill! I daresay that > Rs 50,000 crores will go into the pockets of politicians, bureaucrats and middlemen.

And the same government is getting nightmares on a trainer aircraft costing a measly Rs 37 crores??? Jeeez!

 

[MilSpec]

Btw, since you were in the design field. What's your take on all the design problems of our indigenous aircrafts? Be it LCA, LCH, Saras, or IJT, all suffered from design issues, that caused weight, or drag problems. I was told by some Germans 2 years ago, that IJT looks not well designed and to have design issues, which required the additon of strakes (not sure if that was the right word) and other design changes. LCH had major drag issues and the air intakes were re-positioned for that, which surprised me too, since I thought things like that would have been noticed even during windtunnel tests. What's the root of these problems and how can we improve in this field?

I dont know where to begin, or even if I should respond to this. Giving an opinion on such a vast field of technology when I barely know about 1% or lesser at the topic at hand for sure will make me look like an idiot, but still here goes nothing.

LCA: My knowledge on LCA is derived from conversations with pilots and managers who would tell us what is going on in the project, rest from reading about it from the same sources as anyone else. I have never seen any of the cfd simulations, hence I cannot comment on the what the exact aerodynamic performance limits are but from design stand point, it is pretty ballsy. I follows a slightly unconventional wing and air frame geometry and in plan view the massive wings gives it a pretty cool personality. As a design engineer, I like it. Production design is an entirely whole different story, and we have had that conversation before too.

IJT
My problem is not with the platforms design, it is with the lack of foresight with the design. From what I have seen of IJT, it resembles alpha jet trainer, almost signals lack of imagination from the designers.

I am not sure of the IJT's design and what went behind it but to me the air inlets look small, but then again it is powered by a pretty small 16kn engine, I have no idea what went behind selection of the engine, when the rols royce adour mk102 with fadec from the jaguars with almost 30KN was available with a stronger airframe, you could have had a better aircraft.

I wouldn't want to comment on NAL saras, i dont know anything about it.

ALH structural design is conventional, reminiscent of popular European styling, where it excels is the planning of the design process to have excellent high altitude performance, safety redundancies built into the avionics architecture. LCH I think is the most impressive story of the young promising design team from Bangalore helicopter division, I dont know much about helicopters, but LCH is just a stunner, I dont think there are any known issues with LCH's structural design.

My general overview of the design process in India, has to nothing to do with the projects that HAl or other d-psu's undertake. Primarily extensive reform is needed in the educational sector and training imparted later in the D-Psu's both of them are extremely inadequate. The mentality, the culture of commitment towards tasks, the culture of pulling your own weight, approach to project management, all of the areas need work in the PSU sector. Market needs more maturity, which wont happen till the managers and process matures.