HAL LCH| Updates and Discussions

[Joe Shearer]

Well I see LCH operating in tandem with fast moving IBG's in the plain lands, providing forward air control, lasing targets for CAS fixed wings and ambushing armor.


In mountainous terrain, its often better to overwhelm the enemy with tube and conventional arty. I dont see the LCH doing much in that terrain other Spec ops.

In fact, further to your observation about the ineffectiveness of the LCH in mountain terrain, it will be more vulnerable in that terrain. Flying attack helicopters in the mountains is asking to lose a lot of helicopters.

 

[Bl[i]tZ]

OSCAR should read that the American Air Campaign in the first gulf war begun only after the destruction of radars and enemy air defences by Apache. .

Actions in Desert Storm--
In Operation Desert Storm, the Apache was called on to perform its primary mission of tank-killing and did so with tremendous success. In some of the first attacks of the air war, Apaches attacked Iraqi command and control centers for air defenses on the border. Using the laser-guided Hellfire missile, Apaches destroyed a number of tank and armor units prior to the ground invasion. In one of the more interesting attacks of the air war, two Apache's were successful in forcing some 400Iraqi prisoners to surrender just prior to the start of the ground war. When the ground war commenced, Apaches provided close air support to advancing allied forces, destroying a considerable number of Iraqi tanks.

274 AH-64's were deployed to the KTO. This represented 45% of the Army's AH-64 fleet at the time. AH-64's flew over 18,700hours with a readiness rate of over 90 percent. One AH-64 was lost to enemy fire, but its crew was recovered. Sand was a major enemy of the aircraft, causing serious problems with auxiliary power unit, environmental controls and shaft dirven compressors.

The 20k feet is required to smoke out tourists from Pakistan who sometimes happen to show up in Kargil or later in Siachen when Pakistan violates the authentication of AGPL, delineation and demarcation into LoC it is going to sign for the withdrawl of Indian troops.

 

[Omega007]

OSCAR should read that the American Air Campaign in the first gulf war begun only after the destruction of radars and enemy air defences by Apache. .



The 20k feet is required to smoke out tourists from Pakistan who sometimes happen to show up in Kargil or later in Siachen when Pakistan violates the authentication of AGPL, delineation and demarcation into LoC it is going to sign for the withdrawl of Indian troops.

Yeah,LCH was infact built for high altitude close air support.That's why IAF had recomended LCH to carry 600 kg payload at 22k feet whici it did and actually surpassed by far with carrying 800 kg payload to 26k feet during the IOC.But still I think that it would have been better if DRDO could have come up with an armed MALE UAV for that role.
By the way,I know that LCH is a HAL project but they sgould now seriously consider approaching DRDO to develop a mmw radar for LCH.They had tested a mmw seeker for Helina ATGM so making a mmw radar like the Longbow shouldn't be a tough job.

 

[IndianArmy]

In fact, further to your observation about the ineffectiveness of the LCH in mountain terrain, it will be more vulnerable in that terrain. Flying attack helicopters in the mountains is asking to lose a lot of helicopters.

Hey Joe.. Would it still be a nightmare for a Helicopter in Mountain terrains with a maneuvering capability of flying at an extreme angle of 70-80 degree Nose down??

 

[SQ8]

OSCAR should read that the American Air Campaign in the first gulf war begun only after the destruction of radars and enemy air defences by Apache. .



The 20k feet is required to smoke out tourists from Pakistan who sometimes happen to show up in Kargil or later in Siachen when Pakistan violates the authentication of AGPL, delineation and demarcation into LoC it is going to sign for the withdrawl of Indian troops.

And Blitz should read up on the strike, what preceded it .. and how it was carried out..
and not at 20000 ft before trying to make a point.

The LCH is not going to face a half baked ADGE in Pakistan, it also has to face a fairly potent one in the north..
It and the AH-64 will find themselves facing medium level SAM's...point defence LD-2000 systems.. and the like.
The LCH along with the Ah-64 will succeed in the mission by employing smart tactics and shooting first before being seen.
Not by flying at 20000 ft to avoid a single MANPAD system.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hey Joe.. Would it still be a nightmare for a Helicopter in Mountain terrains with a maneuvering capability of flying at an extreme angle of 70-80 degree Nose down??

Let me put it to you this way: think about the pilot.

Ask among your Army Aviation friends. Ask from a safe distance.

 

[Black Widow]

And Blitz should read up on the strike, what preceded it .. and how it was carried out..
and not at 20000 ft before trying to make a point.

The LCH is not going to face a half baked ADGE in Pakistan, it also has to face a fairly potent one in the north..
It and the AH-64 will find themselves facing medium level SAM's...point defence LD-2000 systems.. and the like.
The LCH along with the Ah-64 will succeed in the mission by employing smart tactics and shooting first before being seen.
Not by flying at 20000 ft to avoid a single MANPAD system.

At Longewala Pakistan had supremacy but they lost, Similarly in 65 We had better IAF but still cause more damage. So it all depends upon strategy.

LCH, ALH, Apache, EuroCopter all are destructible. I will give an example
Suppose India deployed ABM in all major cities, what about minor cities? Pakistani ABM can hit it. Its not old age war where both party come face to face and fight. Its modern war, ppl hit where you are weak. The Helos will not sent on Kamikaze mission, They will be guarded against Man-Pad. SEAD missions will precede before helos enter the hostile land.

Where as in defesive role, no need to afraid of SAMs. Manpad will be taken care by Tanks and Infantry..

P.S.: The Helos will be used by IA aviation wings, which will take help of IAF for SEAD misions.

 

[SQ8]

At Longewala Pakistan had supremacy but they lost, Similarly in 65 We had better IAF but still cause more damage. So it all depends upon strategy.

LCH, ALH, Apache, EuroCopter all are destructible. I will give an example
Suppose India deployed ABM in all major cities, what about minor cities? Pakistani ABM can hit it. Its not old age war where both party come face to face and fight. Its modern war, ppl hit where you are weak. The Helos will not sent on Kamikaze mission, They will be guarded against Man-Pad. SEAD missions will precede before helos enter the hostile land.

Where as in defesive role, no need to afraid of SAMs. Manpad will be taken care by Tanks and Infantry..

P.S.: The Helos will be used by IA aviation wings, which will take help of IAF for SEAD misions.

Again, the focus on invulnerability must end for all..
I mean of all the things.. the mighty F-22 ends up killing its own pilots by poisoning their oxygen.
The LCH , or the AH-64 is not MANPAD proof.. but will employ tactics to reduce the threat as much as possible.
for eg.. the AH-64 anti radar strike quoted by the eager beaver here.. was not carried out by AH-64's alone..
they were supported by MH-53 PAVE LOW helicopters carrying IRCM systems and a large cache of flares which they dispensed every now and then to make sure no Iraqi Sam system was able to get a clear shot.

No system operates alone in war.. be it the LCH, MKI or the FGFA...
Each will be dependant on a long list of supporting assets that will ensure that the crafts 100% potential is augmented to make it a 150%.
That is the spectre of Modern war.. its Mano a many mano..
A Chinese J-11 will not just be engaging an MKI, it will alert the Indian ADGE closest to it.. it will alert the supporting EW system.
It will alert the MKI's flight.. and it will alert the Air operations command for that sector..
It will be engaging them all by engaging the MKI.

 

[Black Widow]

Again, the focus on invulnerability must end for all..
I mean of all the things.. the mighty F-22 ends up killing its own pilots by poisoning their oxygen.
The LCH , or the AH-64 is not MANPAD proof.. but will employ tactics to reduce the threat as much as possible.
for eg.. the AH-64 anti radar strike quoted by the eager beaver here.. was not carried out by AH-64's alone..
they were supported by MH-53 PAVE LOW helicopters carrying IRCM systems and a large cache of flares which they dispensed every now and then to make sure no Iraqi Sam system was able to get a clear shot.

No system operates alone in war.. be it the LCH, MKI or the FGFA...
Each will be dependant on a long list of supporting assets that will ensure that the crafts 100% potential is augmented to make it a 150%.
That is the spectre of Modern war.. its Mano a many mano..
A Chinese J-11 will not just be engaging an MKI, it will alert the Indian ADGE closest to it.. it will alert the supporting EW system.
It will alert the MKI's flight.. and it will alert the Air operations command for that sector..
It will be engaging them all by engaging the MKI.

Right we are on the same page, "Good weapon with Good strategy" Win the war... Cool.. And I think LCH will prove itself as good weapon...

 

[Joe Shearer]

Right we are on the same page, "Good weapon with Good strategy" Win the war... Cool.. And I think LCH will prove itself as good weapon...

He didn't say that. He said Good Weapons integrated in a Good System with Good Tactics will win a battle.

 

[sancho]

The LCH , or the AH-64 is not MANPAD proof.. but will employ tactics to reduce the threat as much as possible.

Maybe interesting in this regard:

IAF (Israel AirForce) mulls missile defense system for helicopters

Proposal comes in face of growing surface-to-air missile threat against IAF aircraft from the Gaza Strip and Lebanon.

The air force is looking into installing an active protection system aboard its helicopters that would intercept enemy missiles, similar to a system recently proven in combat on IDF tanks.

The proposal comes in face of the growing surface-to-air missile threat against IAF aircraft from the Gaza Strip and Lebanon.

The requirement for such a system was recently issued by the IAF’s Helicopter Air Directorate in light of the success of the Trophy active protection system developed by Rafael Advanced Defense Systems, which intercepted a rocket-propelled grenade fired at a Merkava Mk 4 tank deployed along the border with the Gaza Strip in March.

The Trophy system, which weighs 800 kg, would not be appropriate for helicopters since it fires off a cloud of countermeasures that could damage the aircraft’s rotor. The Trophy consists of radar that detects threats and activates one of two launchers, which discharges a cloud of “hard-kill” countermeasures that physically attack incoming threats.

“We are looking into a hard-kill system for helicopters that would work like Trophy,” a senior IAF officer said. “It is still under review and consideration...

IAF mulls missile defense system for helicopte... JPost - Defense

 

[Capt.Popeye]

In fact, further to your observation about the ineffectiveness of the LCH in mountain terrain, it will be more vulnerable in that terrain. Flying attack helicopters in the mountains is asking to lose a lot of helicopters.

Joe; I would go with that view. The Attack helicopter is analogous to a 'flying tank' to put it over-simplistically. Who is able to operate tanks in the mountains?

In the NE (Arunachal for instance), it will be tough enough for a helicopter pilot to handle weather in the valleys (down-drafts and wind-shears et. al) than to worry about evading ground fire. When any attack helicopter sorties take place in the (high and narrow) mountains, top cover will be a must. Not to mention effective recce pre-ops.
War in that area will strictly work for Infantry 'Pongos'. On another thread here I observed quite some discussion about use of Arty in Higher Reaches. Hardly suitable for that, considering that even siting gun emplacements for large howitzers is not easy. Max. portable howitzers or the ubiquitous field guns.

Ladakh is different, there is some scope for use of Attack Helos. Otherwise they are optimised for the plains and easily undulating terrain where they can use 'nape of the earth' flying to advantage.

 

[IndianArmy]

Let me put it to you this way: think about the pilot.

Ask among your Army Aviation friends. Ask from a safe distance.

Well the Training imparted plays the role as it must. A Vehicle of such caliber must not be ditched in the terrains where its built for.

 

[Bl[i]tZ]

And Blitz should read up on the strike, what preceded it .. and how it was carried out..
and not at 20000 ft before trying to make a point.

The LCH is not going to face a half baked ADGE in Pakistan, it also has to face a fairly potent one in the north..
It and the AH-64 will find themselves facing medium level SAM's...point defence LD-2000 systems.. and the like.
The LCH along with the Ah-64 will succeed in the mission by employing smart tactics and shooting first before being seen.
Not by flying at 20000 ft to avoid a single MANPAD system.

I was actually talking about two differing things - a normal strike mission in the plains and and ability to hit at 20k feet as well (the latter is an additional capability not the primary one).

Not trying to be provocative but even after all the ADs you mentioned, Americans just took out two posts of PA on the western border, without taking a single hit. Apaches struck for over 45 min, PA didn't have anything substantial to hit back. (May be that's just western border)

 

[SQ8]

I was actually talking about two differing things - a normal strike mission in the plains and and ability to hit at 20k feet as well (the latter is an additional capability not the primary one).

Not trying to be provocative but even after all the ADs you mentioned, Americans just took out two posts of PA on the western border, without taking a single hit. Apaches struck for over 45 min, PA didn't have anything substantial to hit back. (May be that's just western border)

No AAA, No MANPADS..
think.