HAL LCH| Updates and Discussions

[KS]

The LCH mock up used twin pylons for ATGM, LAHAT is possible with these quad pylons, but it is only a light ATGM (warhead weighs 4.5Kg, Nag warhead has a weight of 8Kg), if we chose an Israeli ATGM it should be Spike.
However, we also have to keep in mind the MTOW of the helicopter and the weight of such missile packs. This also limits the weapon load and that's why heavy attack helicopter like the Apache can carry 16 ATGMs, instead of 8 like the light once.

But the weight of the Spike is more than twice that of the LAHAT which is a constraint on the LCH.
Moreover if the 4.5 kg is enough to do the job...y go for 9 kg which is an overkill..?

 

[Kinetic]

But the weight of the Spike is more than twice that of the LAHAT which is a constraint on the LCH.
Moreover if the 4.5 kg is enough to do the job...y go for 9 kg which is an overkill..?

It will be LAHAT and Helina. LCH already got laser designator for LAHAT and Helina is exclusively developed for LCH.

 

[CONNAN]

Network Centric, Light Combat Helicopter with all weather operability impresses IAF and Army Aviation

8ak - Indian Defence News

8ak/PIB/HAL: HAL got compliments from all quarters today with the successful, official maiden flight of the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) in Bangalore today. With some good engineering and commonalities with the Advanced Light Helicopter platform, it took HAL just 40 months to develop the LCH project which started in 2006.

The 5.8 tonne LCH inherits many technical features of the ALH Dhruv which includes the hingless-rotor system, transmission, Shakti engines, hydraulics, IADS, weapons system and avionics. The features that are unique to LCH are sleek & narrow fuselage, tri-cycle crashworthy landing gear, tandem cockpits, crash-worthy & self sealing fuel tanks, aero foil shaped stub wings for weapons, armour protection, NBC protection and low visibility features.

LCH is fitted with a 20mm turret gun which will be controlled by a helmet-mounted sighting system. Besides Air-to-Air missiles, it is believed that DRDO's Helina (NAG) anti-tank guided missile will also be integrated with this platform giving it significant air-to-ground attack capability.

The helicopter would have day/night targeting systems for the crew including the Helmet pointed sight and Electro-optical pod consisting of CCD camera/FLIR/laser range finder/laser designator. The LRF & LD facilitate measurement of range to the target & guidance to the Laser guided Missiles respectively. A Digital Video Recorder would enable recording of the vital mission for debriefing purposes.

The LCH is fitted with Self Protection Suite consisting of Radar/Laser Missile warning systems and Countermeasures dispensing system. It is also planned to integrate IR/Laser missile jammer on the helicopter.

The helicopter would be fitted with a Data Link for Network-centric operations facilitating transfer of the mission data to the other airborne platforms and ground stations operating in the network, thus facilitating force multiplication. It has a sophisticated mission system called the Target Acquistion and Designing System (TADS).

The machine is designed for low detection (visual, aural, radar & infra-red) and includes armour protection of critical areas. A 30 minute dry running capability of the gear box is a built in feature to survive after a ballistic hit to the transmission system. Crash-worthiness features are built into the wheel landing gear & structure. Dual redundant systems also enhance the effectiveness of the helicopter in the battlefield environment.

HAL claims that the performance features of the LCH i.e. rate of climb, cruise speed, service ceiling are on par, if not better than other helicopter in its class like A129/Tiger and with bigger dedicated combat helicopters like Apache, Kamov 30 or Mi-35.

The development team included members of HAL, Indian Air Force, the certification authorities CEMILAC, DGAQA and the various suppliers of the onboard systems. LCH prototype development was based on the concept of design, ground testing and fabrication concurrently. The design & manufacturing was carried-out using the state-of-art C.A.D/C.A.M facilities which obviated the requirement of an interface check rig. The ground testing included wind-tunnel testing, landing gear drop tests, and shake test. A mock up was also built for evaluation by the Indian Air Force.

Besides the Indian Air Force, the helicopter has also impressed the Army Aviation Corp who could use it in a surveillance role as they await the Light Observation Helicopter which will be a single engine version for high altitudes. Operational clearance is expected in 2012 with EcoTimes reporting that induction will begin in 2014.

Meanwhile, DNA reported on May 12 that the procurement of 197 reconnaissance & surveillance helicopters meant for Army Aviation may be cancelled.

Separately, speaking to ANI, HAL Chairman Ashok Nayak said that HAL is also working on the Lakshya Mark II UAV.

 

[CONNAN]

 

[sancho]

But the weight of the Spike is more than twice that of the LAHAT which is a constraint on the LCH.
Moreover if the 4.5 kg is enough to do the job...y go for 9 kg which is an overkill..?

That's what I said, LAHAT is more an tank ammo and not really an ATGM, all real air launched ATGMs are clearly heavier:

NAG/Helina: normal weight 42Kg, warhead 8Kg
Spike: 34Kg, ?
Hellfire: 45 - 49Kg, 8 - 9Kg
Pars 3: 49Kg, 9Kg
Brimstone: 48.5Kg, ?

LAHAT: 13.5Kg, 4.5Kg

The fact that even the Israeli forces don't use only LAHAT but developed several versions of the Spike missile, should make clear that bigger ATGMs are needed in the anti tank role.
Not even the official brochure calls it ATGM:

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/3/34883.pdf

 

[KS]

That's what I said, LAHAT is more an tank ammo and not really an ATGM, all real air launched ATGMs are clearly heavier:

NAG/Helina: normal weight 42Kg, warhead 8Kg
Spike: 34Kg, ?
Hellfire: 45 - 49Kg, 8 - 9Kg
Pars 3: 49Kg, 9Kg
Brimstone: 48.5Kg, ?

LAHAT: 13.5Kg, 4.5Kg

Dude i agree that the warhead is small..But my only query is if 4.5 is enough for the job why go for 9 kg ?

The fact that even the Israeli forces don't use only LAHAT but developed several versions of the Spike missile, should make clear that bigger ATGMs are needed in the anti tank role.

the Spike can be used on heavy duty choppers like the Apache which incidentally the Israelis use and which doesnt have that much weight constraints as the LCH.

The LAHAT can be suitable for our LCH (less weight) and the Spike better suited for the heavy attack chopper like Mi-35 which we r currently using or the 22 attack choppers that we r gonna buy.

 

[Dash]

Sancho showed us a pic for LCH pylons, in fact we all have seen it by now which is a missile from MBDA. So most probably Brimestone. abnd Iam not sure if LAHAT and HELINA both can be used...?

 

[sancho]

Dude i agree that the warhead is small..But my only query is if 4.5 is enough for the job why go for 9 kg ?



the Spike can be used on heavy duty choppers like the Apache which incidentally the Israelis use and which doesnt have that much weight constraints as the LCH.

The LAHAT can be suitable for our LCH (less weight) and the Spike better suited for the heavy attack chopper like Mi-35 which we r currently using or the 22 attack choppers that we r gonna buy.

If such a small warhead would be enough, don't you think that every country would go for it? But as I showed you, all air launched ATGMs for light, or heavy combat helicopters are heavier and use around 8Kg warheads. I don't deny that LAHAT could be used with LCH, but most likely not in the anti tank role, possibly more against armoured vehicles, or light tanks.

 

[Dash]

Dude i agree that the warhead is small..But my only query is if 4.5 is enough for the job why go for 9 kg

LAHAT I dont think can be used from Helis, as its a tank gun based missile system.
Like Sancho said you need to have air launch missile system like, hell fire, Brimestone, so that should answer your query.

Sancho -
Only I guess Spike NLOS can be heli launched, but that itself is around 70 Kg I read somewhere.
So do you think Spike as a feasible system for LCH?..

 

[KS]

I don't deny that LAHAT could be used with LCH, but most likely not in the anti tank role, possibly more against armoured vehicles, or light tanks.

Yeah this is realistic.We can go afor a combination of LAHAT and SPIKE/BRIMSTONE (Till HELINA comes) and use them according to the mission requirements.

LAHAT I dont think can be used from Helis, as its a tank gun based missile system.
Like Sancho said you need to have air launch missile system like, hell fire, Brimestone, so that should answer your query.

No,it can be launched from Helis also.

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/3/34883.pdf

 

[gowthamraj]

already tons of times posted. .

 

[Moscow]

have to wait for the high altitude test to fix the higher load issue in thinner air ....

 

[Dash]

No,it can be launched from Helis also.

Hmm. I guess I missed that info as everywhere I read they said nothing about LAHAT being fired from a heli. Thank you

We will have to wait and see when they select the wepons for LCH. I guess it will ab year or something when the weapons trial will start.

 

[wali87]

Lessons , the key important word ,

You see sir, India has learned her lessons building Helicopters from the ALH(Dhurv) .A heli that was also critiqued alongside the tejas and the Arjun . but what did that prove ,nothing . Today we have the LCH as result of the good work we did on the Dhurv.

Now while you may say



you forget , that both those projects are also undergoing a Mk-II project.

While we may all agree the MK-I's have had their shortcomings , they are still very mature and capable platforms.

you see , sir if you actually have been following the latest news with regards to these projects.

you would be aware , that The tejas is less than 6 months away from IOC . With the first squadron already under construction. and another squadron the following year.

Arjun has showed superiority in the trials against the T-90 , and another 124 tanks have been ordered. Bringing the total to 248 tanks.

More orders will probably follow for the Mk-I's of both machines.

On top of that Funding and approval for MK-II of the projects has already been given.

Both expected to be rolled out in the next 5 years.

__________________________________________________________________

the one lesson people have not leaned is that none of these projects are a failure

My point is that LCH seems to be a success while arjun and tejas are not.
I dont want to discuss these two here but 25 years in development of a plane, by the time mk2 comes out its going to be 35 years since the the plane was started. Hence, the platform will already be obsolete.
same goes for arjun.

In the field of defense, i don't think nations the have time and precious taxpayers money JUST TO LEARN LESSONS specially when they have enemies sitting on two of their borders. The government is wasting money on learning lessons while half of your population is dying of hunger? would you call that moral? how many other countries have spent so much time learning just lessons?

Why waste time when you can easily obtain all the necessary avionics and other hardware from friendly countries like Russia and Israel who won't even put sanctions rather support you in hard times.

Anyhow, dhruv took 5 years. and LCH took 2. this is how you define success. money well spent.

 

[ramu]

My point is that LCH seems to be a success while arjun and tejas are not.
I dont want to discuss these two here but 25 years in development of a plane, by the time mk2 comes out its going to be 35 years since the the plane was started. Hence, the platform will already be obsolete.
same goes for arjun.

Totally disagree. India had very little understanding of building and managing projects of the scale of LCA. It is not just technological pit falls but the sheer magnitude and synchronization required to make this work. LCA or Arjun took a long time but 25 years is not the actual number. Indians have the habit of announcing the project and hyping it up but the project and funds start trickling a decade later. This is a flaw in the system but not good to add it to the actual time of development. We did take a long time but not longer than we can afford.

The incentives in kick backs and all the good things associated with imported 'maal' is a mindset that has to change even in defense sectors. The IAF was a not so ideal customer by making changes in the requirements and so is the case for Arjun. Taking a wide brush and labeling them failed is to ignore the supporting industries and the defense ecosystem created in India because of these projects. In many ways, the LCA project has helped ramp up the Dhruv and LCH but not many outsiders know about this.

In the field of defense, i don't think nations the have time and precious taxpayers money JUST TO LEARN LESSONS specially when they have enemies sitting on two of their borders. The government is wasting money on learning lessons while half of your population is dying of hunger? would you call that moral? how many other countries have spent so much time learning just lessons?

Anyhow, dhruv took 5 years. and LCH took 2. this is how you define success. money well spent.

If you are a carpenter and import wood for your job. You can't get wood from the local forest because your axe is not sharp enough. Would you continue importing or take time to sharpen your axe or import an axe ?

The lessons learnt will go a long way in saving loads of foreign exchange in the years to come. Once organisations like HAL[ADA], BEL, DRDO start delivering and private players like L&T, TATA, Mahindra recognize the lucrative defense market and gear up to it, mark my words. India on Top