HAL divestment plan gains speed

[sancho]

What can I say... I'm not going to nitpick anymore

No need to, just tell me how NAL did get the Hansa to prototype level and why HAL wasn't able to do the same?

Suggesting TATA will bring modern manufacturing techniques implies HAL's manufacturing regime is outdated... I will contest that with any production manager any day... get your data to suggest so and i will explain in detail the manufacturing system and opex planning regime...

Not outdated, but is it as effective?

TATAs production line of S92 cabins:

Sikorsky to ramp up production of cabins for S-92 helicopters

...The TASL facility will increase its annual capacity from 12 to 26 from this month and later scale it up to 36 per annum..

Sikorsky to ramp up production of cabins for S-92 helicopters - The Hindu


How many Dhruvs cabins can HAL produce per year after all these years of production? Can HAL match that and if not why?

Also, getting Tata on HAL's side would also be a tactical move, look at the IN naval helicopter requirement. Sikorskys team up with Tata is actually the kill for HAL's IMRH in the same class and for the same purpose. Do you really think that IN/IAF or MoD will wait till HAL has developed it, while they could get S70s made in India via Tata (hopefully NFH90s) sooner? That's the competition you earlier wanted with private players, but that HAL will lose, when they don't go the same way and find JV partners, either foreign once, or even better Indian once!
Btw, if the NFH90 would be selected and the final deal could grow up to 100 or more, I even think that HAL would try to get the licence production of them. As you can see, HAL is limiting itself by not taking the chances with Indian privat industry, or at least team up with foreign partners for NG helicopter projects.

HAL should have kicked ADA in teeth for LCA mk1, HAL needs better marketing, HAL needs to grow more balls and stop providing warranty concessions for IAF

Exactly, HAL todays is downgraded to "just" a manufacturer, of things ADA and DRDO has developed and that's a problem. Not sure if you have seen it, but I once suggested that it would be far better to see HAL and NAL as prime developers for indigenous aero developments, with labs like ADA/DRDO assisting them (not the other way around) with development of certain techs, or design assistance + private players (Indian mainly, but also foreign since we have the access to them) on the other side for production assistance. HAL and NAL would have control of the overall project, but could divert responsibilities, or get advantages from other government or private players.
The same could be done in the naval field as well, since the key remains to give not labs the project management, but those that actually have an idea about it.

But for this HAL needs a much better standing in India, which it don't get by just switching to the next projects, without getting the current projects done. Being Indias major in the aero field alone is not enough, you also need to improve yourself (like you said as well) and must show some results too.

And if disinvestment is a magic cure, I have a better Idea, why not sell HAL to TATA

That is not different that selling HAL shares at the stock market, since the outcome is profit oriented, but that can't be the aim.

 

[Echo_419]

No need to, just tell me how NAL did get the Hansa to prototype level and why HAL wasn't able to do the same?




Not outdated, but is it as effective?

TATAs production line of S92 cabins:

Sikorsky to ramp up production of cabins for S-92 helicopters - The Hindu


How many Dhruvs cabins can HAL produce per year after all these years of production? Can HAL match that and if not why?

Also, getting Tata on HAL's side would also be a tactical move, look at the IN naval helicopter requirement. Sikorskys team up with Tata is actually the kill for HAL's IMRH in the same class and for the same purpose. Do you really think that IN/IAF or MoD will wait till HAL has developed it, while they could get S70s made in India via Tata (hopefully NFH90s) sooner? That's the competition you earlier wanted with private players, but that HAL will lose, when they don't go the same way and find JV partners, either foreign once, or even better Indian once!
Btw, if the NFH90 would be selected and the final deal could grow up to 100 or more, I even think that HAL would try to get the licence production of them. As you can see, HAL is limiting itself by not taking the chances with Indian privat industry, or at least team up with foreign partners for NG helicopter projects.




Exactly, HAL todays is downgraded to "just" a manufacturer, of things ADA and DRDO has developed and that's a problem. Not sure if you have seen it, but I once suggested that it would be far better to see HAL and NAL as prime developers for indigenous aero developments, with labs like ADA/DRDO assisting them (not the other way around) with development of certain techs, or design assistance + private players (Indian mainly, but also foreign since we have the access to them) on the other side for production assistance. HAL and NAL would have control of the overall project, but could divert responsibilities, or get advantages from other government or private players.
The same could be done in the naval field as well, since the key remains to give not labs the project management, but those that actually have an idea about it.

But for this HAL needs a much better standing in India, which it don't get by just switching to the next projects, without getting the current projects done. Being Indias major in the aero field alone is not enough, you also need to improve yourself (like you said as well) and must show some results too.



That is not different that selling HAL shares at the stock market, since the outcome is profit oriented, but that can't be the aim.

Question
Why doesn't hal signs a MOU like mazagon docks did with Pipav shipyard

& how is the performance of BEL & BEML has it improvedimproved

 

[sancho]

Question
Why doesn't hal signs a MOU like mazagon docks did with Pipav shipyard

& how is the performance of BEL & BEML has it improvedimproved

That's something that Sandy can answer better than I could, but the team up of Mazogon and Pipav is how I would like to see it in the aero field as well. Both are still teaming up with foreign and Indian privat companies too AND are benefiting from DRDO for example as a provider of naval systems.

 

[Echo_419]

What can I say... I'm not going to nitpick anymore... I have repeatedly said that HTT 40 is low impact high benefit project which makes a good business case but it keeps falling on deaf ears... And HAL is providing an option and not shoving it down IAF's throat.

TATA LT or Mahindra doesn't bring an ounce of technological benefit and comparing them to BAE, EADS, DB or RADS is just silly.

Suggesting TATA will bring modern manufacturing techniques implies HAL's manufacturing regime is outdated... I will contest that with any production manager any day... get your data to suggest so and i will explain in detail the manufacturing system and opex planning regime...

HAL shortfalls are immense:

HAL has shortfalls, MKI production rate could use rapid improvements, strategic planning for FGFA could be done before hand, HAL should have kicked ADA in teeth for LCA mk1, HAL needs better marketing, HAL needs to grow more balls and stop providing warranty concessions for IAF, HAL needs to MRP restructuring for inventory turn around time, Hal needs to cut down raw rolling stock, HAL needs to stop paying out of it's own pocket for IAF's base repair depot maintenance costs, HAL should stop integrating DARE III upgrades to for Mig 27 and transfer the project to ADA which has barely any business value, HAL needs to stop life extension programs for overhauls and stick to it's scope of std work and Let IAF deal with life extensions for LGU's for mig 27, Jaguar and mig 21 bison units.

And if disinvestment is a magic cure, I have a better Idea, why not sell HAL to TATA, they seem to have some magic cure that I dont see.... If 10% will get all the improvements you envisage, shouldn't 100% increase that 9 folds....

Question
Why doesn't hal signs a MOU like mazagon docks did with Pipav shipyard

& how is the performance of BEL & BEML has it improved
Since similar disinvestment was also done in then

 

[MilSpec]

Question
Why doesn't hal signs a MOU like mazagon docks did with Pipav shipyard

& how is the performance of BEL & BEML has it improved
Since similar disinvestment was also done in then

before we start exploring options and actions, let me understand what problem are we trying to solve.....

We cannot envisage copying solutions from other businesses and atart applying them to HAL to solve all prblems it faces...Just because Antihistamine works on allegies doesn't mean it will cure cancer

Lets Identify the problem, (reason)
List the current state (measurable metric, Fpy, Copq, Cogs, Takt,)
Define the target state (measurable Metric)
Analyze the Gap between the Initial and target state
suggest the projects that would bring improvements to close the gaps.
Project planning- (Include in AOP, CE Matrix)
Allocate the funding for those projects
Define timeline for project completions
Analyse results
Lessons learnt

 

[Echo_419]

before we start exploring options and actions, let me understand what problem are we trying to solve.....

We cannot envisage copying solutions from other businesses and atart applying them to HAL to solve all prblems it faces...Just because Antihistamine works on allegies doesn't mean it will cure cancer

Lets Identify the problem, (reason)
List the current state (measurable metric, Fpy, Copq, Cogs, Takt,)
Define the target state (measurable Metric)
Analyze the Gap between the Initial and target state
suggest the projects that would bring improvements to close the gaps.
Project planning- (Include in AOP, CE Matrix)
Allocate the funding for those projects
Define timeline for project completions
Analyse results
Lessons learnt

Aap bade pade lekhe lag rahe ho

Mein toh bas 11th pass hu
12th karaha hu

Can you please tell me how is the performance of BEL & BEML
After similar disinvestment was made In then

 

[MilSpec]

Aap bade pade lekhe lag rahe ho

Mein toh bas 11th pass hu
12th karaha hu

Can you please tell me how is the performance of BEL & BEML
After similar disinvestment was made In then

I am not a big fan of claims!

I am not aware of what BEL and BEML problems were... how many of them were fixed, What Dis-investing brought to the table, what was the change in culture, best practices... so I cannot answer your question.

I am very glad that at your age you are interested in such discussions. I envy your generation

That's something that Sandy can answer better than I could, but the team up of Mazogon and Pipav is how I would like to see it in the aero field as well. Both are still teaming up with foreign and Indian privat companies too AND are benefiting from DRDO for example as a provider of naval systems.

what is the problem we are trying to solve?

 

[Echo_419]

I am not a big fan of claims!

I am not aware of what BEL and BEML problems were... how many of them were fixed, What Dis-investing brought to the table, what was the change in culture, best practices... so I cannot answer your question.

I am very glad that at your age you are interested in such discussions. I envy your generation


what is the problem we are trying to solve?

That's very flattering of you
Thx got the problem I will try to post their performance since disinvestment was made

 

[sancho]

We cannot envisage copying solutions from other businesses and atart applying them to HAL to solve all prblems it faces...

A partnership with TATA would not be a copy of other businesses, but taking an already established JV of both companies to the next level!

Tata HAL Technologies Limited
Strategic aerospace program partner for aerostructure engineering, design and manufacturing

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Asia’s premier aerospace manufacturer and Tata Technologies, a global leader in engineering services outsourcing, merge their formidable engineering, design & manufacturing resources and market reach through the formation of their joint venture company – Tata HAL Technologies Limited.

• Only dedicated Aerostructures design house in India. Leverages HAL design and manufacture facilities, Tata Technologies global delivery centers and Tata Group aero manufacturing and assembly facilities, to provide an end to end solution to customers globally”

• Comprehensive ‘Design-to-Build’ program delivery and management

• From Concept Design to Certification and Manufacturing support, the entire virtual world of Aerostructures including Optimization and Value Engineering

Welcome to TataHal.com


So when HAL thinks it's a good idea to team up for engineering, design and manufacturing in the Civil aero field, why not do the same in the defence aero field as well?

Lets Identify the problem, (reason)

Issues in aircraft design (which is a problem in India in general as it seems), slow manufacturing capability (you didn't answered about HAL's production of Dhruv cabins vs TATAs S92), reportedly slow maintenance timelines for Dhruv, which might need improvements or could be partially outsourced (if I'm not wrong Mahindra will take over maintenance for Eurocopter civil helicopters in India), wrong development priorities to start with.
The parts we agree on wrt to lack of PR and balls to take on ADA/DRDO are different issues, but not related to a partnership with a privat partner.

 

[fockewulf190]

My take on this, firstly the political interference and trade union blackmails should be minimised and managements should be given more autonomy. Secondly, defence institutions must become more competent, that i think is happening big time in India both vertical and horizontal. I am sure many times, components are sourced from production units to improve the serviceability (because of improper forcastings or improper, impractical plannings in the prototype/design/MOU stages) where they are required more. I think once components are sourced from production units and are removed, production delays are the order of the day. Components of such units are not manufacture in days but months. Regards.

 

[MilSpec]

A partnership with TATA would not be a copy of other businesses, but taking an already established JV of both companies to the next level!

Welcome to TataHal.com

So when HAL thinks it's a good idea to team up for engineering, design and manufacturing in the Civil aero field, why not do the same in the defence aero field as well?

HAL brings the design and production package in the civil aviation field, and TATA provides the manufacturing support. So Tata doesn’t bring anything to the table that is game changer, but the idea of collaboration does have certain positives. HAL offsetting smaller non critical non strategic assets to tata under a JV seems to be a good initiative. But TATA buying stake in HAL to benefit from established technology, order book, and manufacturing capability is another domain altogether.

Issues in aircraft design (which is a problem in India in general as it seems).

That is a very vague acquisition, Which exactly are the issues in design, was HAL allowed to participate in design of LCA, AMCA, AURA, Rustom? Deliverables for ALH is excellent example, the timeline was ensured by offsetting shortfalls in design validation by JV with European partners, same was done with ALH- Shakti engine, if HAL took the kaveri route, not a single ALH would have been in air today. That is the difference between DRDO and ALH to be noted. Deliverables for Bis upgrade to bison was delivered 8 months before schedule. LCH prototype design, and flight tests were conducted 7 months ahead of schedule. Mig 27 MLU life extension was solely done in-house which brought significant research and development of system for identifying stress concentration and fatigue failure zones from NDT data.

Shortfall may exist in my opinion in the intermediate jet trainer, but then again I am not aware of the air force staff hq requirements, so cannot comment on that.

slow manufacturing capability

I know this a favorite for MKI line. The simplest example is, pressure cooker… I am sure your family might have owned one… For a family of say 4 people a 6 liter pressure cooker may suffice, will that be able to accommodate a family 10 people… some might disagree…

So when the Air staff hq requirements were for 100 units and then they change to 270 units the scope of project within the deliverables changes and thus causes the delay. With a change in orderbook of such magnitude, the proposals for capacity increment was rejected BY MOD, which is the prime cause of delay… wit this smaller pressure cooker , you will have to cook twice for larger output and that will cause delays..

(you didn't answered about HAL's production of Dhruv cabins vs TATAs S92),

How can I, I don’t know what material are being used for TATA, what kind of CKD support they have, I don’t know what is their production rate, I don’t know what kind of floor space or plant layout they have, I don’t know what is the scope of the work for S92, I don’t know what welding technologies, fixtures, composites, resins, fillers, surface treatments, Cmm checks,NDT and control automation they have developed in house or were directly transferred by sikorsky, I don’t know what is their tool rebuild and calibration regime, I don’t know what kind of ToT they have recieved,I don’t know what are key process takt times… What am I supposed to compare it with Dhruv’s production line? If you have such data please go ahead and point me to the shortfalls, I will be more than happy to learn about them.

reportedly slow maintenance timelines for Dhruv, which might need improvements or could be partially outsourced

By HAL or by customer? But I do see where you might be going with this, HAL has relied for ages on BRD for due diligence, and also has taken a ding on warranties and concessions for the same. HAL needs to a better job in service team training and documentation.

(if I'm not wrong Mahindra will take over maintenance for Eurocopter civil helicopters in India), wrong development priorities to start with.

I don’t know about that, and how that is relevant here…


I have no disagreements with anyone on larger role for Indian private players in form of Joint ventures, But to suggest Dis investing a defence PSU, in other words providing potential to make business and strategic decisions in a PSU environment to any entity whose end objective is profit maximization is slippery slope… Once you go down that road, it will be too late to reconcile the damage done….

My take on this, firstly the political interference and trade union blackmails should be minimised and managements should be given more autonomy. Secondly, defence institutions must become more competent, that i think is happening big time in India both vertical and horizontal. I am sure many times, components are sourced from production units to improve the serviceability (because of improper forcastings or improper, impractical plannings in the prototype/design/MOU stages) where they are required more. I think once components are sourced from production units and are removed, production delays are the order of the day. Components of such units are not manufacture in days but months. Regards.

You have hit the nail on the head brother.... welcome !!! Btw cool username- another creation of Kurt tank....

 

[Echo_419]

A partnership with TATA would not be a copy of other businesses, but taking an already established JV of both companies to the next level!



Welcome to TataHal.com


So when HAL thinks it's a good idea to team up for engineering, design and manufacturing in the Civil aero field, why not do the same in the defence aero field as well?




Issues in aircraft design (which is a problem in India in general as it seems), slow manufacturing capability (you didn't answered about HAL's production of Dhruv cabins vs TATAs S92), reportedly slow maintenance timelines for Dhruv, which might need improvements or could be partially outsourced (if I'm not wrong Mahindra will take over maintenance for Eurocopter civil helicopters in India), wrong development priorities to start with.
The parts we agree on wrt to lack of PR and balls to take on ADA/DRDO are different issues, but not related to a partnership with a privat partner.

Hal should first upgrade their website even the Pakistan Aerospace Complex website is far better
& this shows we are heading in right direction
If a strong govt comes in centre & I mean NDA under Modi
We can see some serious reforms in almost all of the sectors

 

[sancho]

HAL brings the design and production package in the civil aviation field, and TATA provides the manufacturing support. So Tata doesn’t bring anything to the table that is game changer

The main point for me would be manufacturing support, but also techs and partnerships that would benefit in co-developments. Again, take the NAL/Mahindra NM5 as an example, Mahindra bought an Australian aero company, absorbed their technical capability and expertise and used that in the development of the NM5. Tata can do the same, unlike a government owned company like NAL or HAL! They are dependent on JVs with foreign companies, to benfit from their expertise, which then again is limited.
So, lets assume Tata would have a stack of HAL and both would want to develop drones. Tata can easily get expertise by taking over foreign companies with the required know how. That would dramatically push not only them, but also a co-development with HAL!
Tata btw has a big stack of Piaggio afaik, which now are developing a MALE drone, based on their civil prop aircraft, which is similar by design to SARAS:

http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Piaggio-PHH.jpg


So simply to say, they don't bring anything on the table is not correct and don't forget the money HAL would get in return for the shares. HAL could modernise it's R&D capabilities, without begging MoD for funds and co-development with Tata would also not see any funding issues!

That is a very vague acquisition, Which exactly are the issues in design, was HAL allowed to participate in design of LCA, AMCA, AURA, Rustom?

Hehe, I knew that you would directly point to the ADA developments, but I am talking about IJT, or LCH to some extend as well. IJT reportedly had design issues which even caused crashes and required later addition of airframe parts and something that is evidend in all Indian aircraft designs, is the problem with overweight and too much drag. The later modifications of LCH makes that evident as well!

So when the Air staff hq requirements were for 100 units and then they change to 270 units the scope of project within the deliverables changes and thus causes the delay.

You mean the additional MKI kits that were procured from Russia? Because the order for the licence production was always for 140.

How can I, I don’t know what material are being used for TATA

That's why I asked you about HALs Dhruv production line and how many Dhruvs cabins HAL can produce per year, since Tata according the report can produce 26 currently with the aim of 36 in future. They only started it some years ago, while HAL is producing Dhruv for years, so comparing the production capability of cabins gives a hint on how comparable HALs production line is.



By HAL or by customer? But I do see where you might be going with this, HAL has relied for ages on BRD for due diligence, and also has taken a ding on warranties and concessions for the same. HAL needs to a better job in service team training and documentation.

 

[MilSpec]

The main point for me would be manufacturing support, but also techs and partnerships that would benefit in co-developments. Again, take the NAL/Mahindra NM5 as an example, Mahindra bought an Australian aero company, absorbed their technical capability and expertise and used that in the development of the NM5. Tata can do the same, unlike a government owned company like NAL or HAL! They are dependent on JVs with foreign companies, to benfit from their expertise, which then again is limited.
So, lets assume Tata would have a stack of HAL and both would want to develop drones. Tata can easily get expertise by taking over foreign companies with the required know how. That would dramatically push not only them, but also a co-development with HAL!
Tata btw has a big stack of Piaggio afaik, which now are developing a MALE drone, based on their civil prop aircraft, which is similar by design to SARAS:

http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Piaggio-PHH.jpg


So simply to say, they don't bring anything on the table is not correct and don't forget the money HAL would get in return for the shares. HAL could modernise it's R&D capabilities, without begging MoD for funds and co-development with Tata would also not see any funding issues!




Hehe, I knew that you would directly point to the ADA developments, but I am talking about IJT, or LCH to some extend as well. IJT reportedly had design issues which even caused crashes and required later addition of airframe parts and something that is evidend in all Indian aircraft designs, is the problem with overweight and too much drag. The later modifications of LCH makes that evident as well!



You mean the additional MKI kits that were procured from Russia? Because the order for the licence production was always for 140.



That's why I asked you about HALs Dhruv production line and how many Dhruvs cabins HAL can produce per year, since Tata according the report can produce 26 currently with the aim of 36 in future. They only started it some years ago, while HAL is producing Dhruv for years, so comparing the production capability of cabins gives a hint on how comparable HALs production line is.



By HAL or by customer? But I do see where you might be going with this, HAL has relied for ages on BRD for due diligence, and also has taken a ding on warranties and concessions for the same. HAL needs to a better job in service team training and documentation.

Alright I concede, HAL should be dis invested...
thanks