GSLV-D5, India's first indigenous cryogenic rocket, launched successfully

[HariPrasad]

I was at another thread showing the poor of India. I was upset that Indian government do not do enough to feed its poor. While many Indians here cheer about the successful launch of its first cryogenic engine, the majority of Indians go to bed without a full stomach.

Actually Indian people decided to go to bad empty stomach but not to eat dogs, frogs, cockroach and snakes. So some go to bad empty stomach.

 

[gslv mk3]

It is already operational.

Most of it is Russian technology which was clandestinely transferred to India.

Commission to Assess the Ballistic Missile Threat to the United States

Between July and October, however, ISRO personnel were found on site in the Russian rocket manufacturing plants that made the cryogenic stages and Indian officials claimed that Russia transferred more than "4/5ths" of the sanctioned production technology.

The remaining 1/5 was either developed by India or, more likely, transferred subsequently by Russia.

Started burning already?Maybe thats why the entire development took 20 years ( from 1990 when the technology was denied to us ) ?

The ground testing started in 2001.

'Indian officials claimed that' when ?

For the bolded part,India is not Pakistan.

 

[Developereo]

Started burning already?Maybe thats why the entire development took 20 years ( from 1990 when the technology was denied to us ) ???

'Indian officials claimed that' when ?

If facts disturb your chest thumping, that's understandable.

There are three possible reasons India couldn't build/develop the cryogenic engine for all this time:

A-- It took Indian scientists 20 years to develop the remaining 1/5th technology.

B-- Russia dripped off the remaining 1/5th technology over 20 years, extracting a suitable premium along the way.

C-- India had received the remaining Russian technology earlier but agreed with Russia to delay public display. Otherwise,the Russian subterfuge would have been far too obvious.

 

[cloud_9]

It is already operational.

Most of it is Russian technology which was clandestinely transferred to India.

Commission to Assess the Ballistic Missile Threat to the United States

Between July and October, however, ISRO personnel were found on site in the Russian rocket manufacturing plants that made the cryogenic stages and Indian officials claimed that Russia transferred more than "4/5ths" of the sanctioned production technology.

The remaining 1/5 was either developed by India or, more likely, transferred subsequently by Russia.

India overcame US sanctions to develop cryogenic engine - The Times of India

A decade before that, in December 1982, India had formed a cryogenic study team to focus on the development of an engine which could generate a thrust of 10 tonnes. But the project did not take off because Isro realized indigenous development of such engines would pose major technological challenges. It then decided to import these engines from Russia to expedite its GSLV programme.

In 1991, Isro signed a $120-million contract with Glavkosmos of Russia for seven cryogenic rocket engines and also a complete transfer of technology. Isro officials said India had to approach Russia because no other country was willing share this technology fearing it would be used for military purposes.

As the India-Russian agreement was being put in place, the US, in July 1993, arm-twisted Russia into stalling the engine supply saying it flouted the Missile Technology Control Regime ( MTCR). The US sanctions on Isro and Glavkosmos were a huge setback to the GSLV programme.

‘Naughty boy’ GSLV makes Isro parents proud with successful blast-off - The Times of India

So far, only US, European Space Agency, China and Japan have succeeded. The story of India's struggle with the cryogenic engine is linked to the collapse of the erstwhile Soviet Union in 1991, the year in which India was to receive the technology from the Russians. The agreement was Soviet Union would transfer the technology to India and provide three cryogenic engines.

However, after the disintegration of USSR, Russia went back on the pact in 1993 and, under pressure from US, refused to part with the technology. But it agreed to provide four more fully made cryogenic engines, taking the number of such engines in India's kitty to seven.

The man who then headed Isro's cryogenic project, Nambi Narayanan, managed to bring in crucial components of the engine from Russia without drawing US attention. When Air India refused to fly in the hardware fearing US embargoes, the Isro team used Russia's Ural Airlines to transport it in three consignments.

But Narayanan soon found himself in prison following what came to be known as the Isro spy case. His arrest and the espionage charges damaged the team's morale. "There is no doubt the foisted case destroyed the organization's morale," Narayanan said. "Otherwise we would have had the cryogenic engine ready by 2001."

 

[Developereo]

India overcame US sanctions to develop cryogenic engine - The Times of India


‘Naughty boy’ GSLV makes Isro parents proud with successful blast-off - The Times of India

You are quoting public propaganda.

I am quoting a report by Federation of American Scientists.

 

[gslv mk3]

You are quoting public propaganda.

I am quoting a report by Federation of American Scientists.

Who knows more about CE 7.5 ? ISRO or your so called 'Federation of American Scientists' ??

If facts disturb your chest thumping, that's understandable.

There are three possible reasons India couldn't build/develop the cryogenic engine for all this time:

A-- It took Indian scientists 20 years to develop the remaining 1/5th technology.

B-- Russia dripped off the remaining 1/5th technology over 20 years, extracting a suitable premium along the way.

C-- India had received the remaining Russian technology earlier but agreed with Russia to delay public display. Otherwise,the Russian subterfuge would have been far too obvious.

Nice jokes by the way

 

[Developereo]

Who knows more about CE 7.5 ? ISRO or your so called 'Federation of American Scientists' ??

ISRO and the Russians have reason to lie about this.

What reason do the Americans have to lie?

 

[cloud_9]

You are quoting public propaganda.

I am quoting a report by Federation of American Scientists.

Cheers! Dr. Phil.We are fine with propaganda.

Do share that light with your brothers back home......we are fine living in the dark [no pun intended]

 

[gslv mk3]

ISRO and the Russians have reason to lie about this.

What reason do the Americans have to lie?

Oh really?So you are thinking that ISRO is lying?
What reason did they had,to claim 'India would misuse cryogenic engine on ICBMs' when we had considerable expertise in solid fuel stages ??

 

[Developereo]

Oh really?So you are thinking that ISRO is lying?
What reason did they had,to claim 'India would misuse cryogenic engine on ICBMs' when we had considerable expertise in solid fuel stages ??

I am quoting the American claims.

Each reader can weigh the different claims and pick their favorite -- whom they believe and whom they don't.

Note that, even if the ISRO developed the remaining 1/5th technology, it would still be a good achievement. Sometimes, 10% of the tech takes 90% of the ingenuity/effort, and we don't know which parts the Russians gave and which were developed by India.

 

[45'22']

another report by FAS states that the deal was cancelled
@Developereo

Strained Indo-Russian Relations


It was in this atmosphere of uncertain Russian foreign policy objectives that the post-Cold War relations between Russia and India were further strained by two events. The first of these destabilizing events centered around a contract dispute between the Russian space directorate "Glavkosmos" and the government of India for the purchase of cryogenic engines and the related technology. The contract, signed on 18 January 1991, stemmed from India�s desire to gain knowledge of the liquid oxygen propulsion system of Russian cryogenic engines in order to advance India�s geo-synchronous satellite launch vehicle (GSLV) program. If produced indigenously and without Russian assistance, the project was forecast to require fifteen years until it would be operational. For Glavkosmos, the $350 million deal would provide crucial funds during a period of tremendous reductions in Russian defense expenditures.

Over the next two years, the United States protested the proposed transfer of missiles and technology to India on the grounds that the sale would violate the April 1987 Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR). The growing threat of missile proliferation became well known to the United States following the Iraqi Scud missile attacks during the Gulf War and the testing of India�s Agni IRBM missile in 1989. However, the ability of the United States to coherently protest the sale was hampered by the changing of governments in Moscow as the Soviet Union collapsed and as the U.S. Executive Branch changed administrations from President Bush to President Clinton.

From the Indian and Russian perspectives, the cryogenic engine deal was legal under the MTCR on the grounds that the treaty did not block the support of "peaceful space ventures." Furthermore, India asserted that U.S. attempts to block the sale were financially motivated since General Dynamics and the French space-booster manufacturer Arianespace had both been outbid by Glavkosmos.

The new Russian government under Boris Yeltsin promised India�s leadership that it would not give in to U.S. diplomatic pressure. This promise was compromised, however, after the United States applied sanctions in May 1992, and threatened further economic measures. On 16 July 1993, Boris Yeltsin agreed to suspend the transaction and to alter the nature of the transfer to the sale of only the cryogenic engines and not the technology. In exchange, Glavkosmos was given bidding rights on over $950 million worth of future U.S. space projects.

While the ability of India to indigenously produce GSLVs and ICBMs was delayed by several years due to the cancellation of the original cryogenic engine deal, the main concern in New Delhi was that the Yeltsin government had given in to Western pressure. "The conclusion they drew was that Russia�s overriding need for American economic aid would make it susceptible to American pressure. In Indian eyes, Russia is unreliable, and it has also lost its international stature." As Indo-Russian relations appeared to weaken under Western pressure, direct bilateral interactions between the two states also revealed tensions.

INDO-RUSSIAN MILITARY AND NUCLEAR COOPERATION

 

[gslv mk3]

I am quoting the American claims.

Each reader can weigh the different claims and pick their favorite -- whom they believe and whom they don't.

We know their claims...

 

[Developereo]

another report by FAS states that the deal was cancelled
@Developereo

All it is saying is that the deal was officially cancelled.

No one is disputing the official version of events between Russia and India.

 

[gslv mk3]

@Developereo
All it is saying is that the deal was officially cancelled.
No one is disputing the official version of events between Russia and India.

OMG here its goes again..

''The (original) contract involved the transfer of technology. But the MTCR problem was there. So we could not transfer the technology. The halt in sale is connected to the MTCR. But we agreed to give mock-up models and flight stages. We have fully implemented whatever was agreed to in the contract.''

Alexander I. Dunayev, Chairman, Glavkosmos.

The cryogenic engine is 'unique'

 

[45'22']

All it is saying is that the deal was officially cancelled.

No one is disputing the official version of events between Russia and India.

the FAS felt that it would take around 15 years to develop that engine indigenously and it took us even more than that....almost 20 years.......

going by what the scientists are saying its very much possible that the ISRO scientists did it by themselves