Greece to purchase 20 F-35 fighters

[dBSPL]

Except planes..

It is not possible for Turkiye to carry out a national policy(based on own interests) with the F-35s as the main combatant element. If you open a seperate thread on this subject, I can explain the technical reasons one by one.

 

[MeFishToo]

It is not possible for Turkiye to carry out a national policy(based on own interests) with the F-35s as the main combatant element. If you open a seperate thread on this subject, I can explain the technical reasons one by one.

No thanks. I was just pointing out that Turkey was left with no planes being expelled from the program.
I dont know you. You might be legit, but Ive noticed some turkish nationalists tend to describe the turkish arms industry as very powerful and self-sufficient, when infact alot of turkish claimed indigenous systems are licence-produced or based on imported sub-components.

Lets just be allies.

 

[dBSPL]

No thanks. I was just pointing out that Turkey was left with no planes being expelled from the program.
I dont know you. You might be legit, but Ive noticed some turkish nationalists tend to describe the turkish arms industry as very powerful and self-sufficient, when infact alot of turkish claimed indigenous systems are licence-produced or based on imported sub-components.

Lets just be allies.

I don't know you either, and I don't know who you mean,

The issue that I would like to draw attention to in the context of the F-35 is that while an important paradigm shift opportunity has been captured for my country's air force, -industrial relations can continue-, but on the basis of the end-systems, it is necessary to take a step towards ending these major dependence on the US aviation industry and so Senate. France has taken this step successfully in the past, and we have to do it too.

The roadmap of the Turkish defense industry and its targets in the 10-20 and 30 year projections are another subject of discussion;

AND the security risks created by the ALIS system (although it has been updated many times), which was created primarily for logistics integrity, but it convey also very critical mission data and flight profiles of F-35 user countries (this system's headquarters is at USAF base); serious operational problems that the system is still experiencing, and US' tendency of use defense relations as political leverage, etc., is a an another side of coin, which is what I mean here.

If the F-35 can overcome its current technical problems, it will become an important combatant platform in the 2030s, I can't dispute that. However, due to its system architecture, this aircraft will be an ideal choice for countries that will fully comply with or full passive with US global policies and interests. Personally, I am against my country taking a step in this direction.

*

Regarding the allegation; Turkiye's aim is to eliminate the US dependency in defense and security needs and to reach a model similar to France in a sense. It cannot achieve this from today to tomorrow, but by seeing the opportunities in areas where paradigm breaks are experienced, it can try to become one of the leading countries in some specific areas, which you can see if you analyze the current SSB-related developments in depth.

Do not forget that Turkiye has an army that has been actively fighting for years. Our soldiers are not in their barracks, but actively on the battlefield. The socio-cultural structure, economy, and inter-institutional organizations of our country are completely designed to live together with the war. What is done here is to put the only missing piece.

 

[Akritas]

Thanks to this, TAF had the opportunity to conduct tactical and operational training with the S-400 system and (Qatar's) Rafales. link

*

Until Greece declares operational capability for its first F-35 wing (2033-35?), the Turkish air force will take the necessary measures more than enough.

I also do not believe that Greece will use this short window of opportunity to embark on a great adventure. All of Greece's military and industrial targets are within the range of even Turkish artillery units.

Tactical and operational experience, on the other hand, is a completely separate topic of discussion. It would be naive to think that a few jet would create a military deterrent against Turkiye, while TAF was conducting a simultaneous operation with +70 jets on air in an extremely narrow airspaces.

Greece has no aerial refueling capability, its AEW-C capabilities are also limited, these jets have to return to their bases after their sorties, if they can find a base to return to...

The air-to-ground ammunition stocks are ridiculous and let me give you an example, only the number of power plants above certain level is higher than 8500, that is far more than entire arsenal of Greece air force. If Greece wants to enter a war, it must increase its ammunition stocks 4-5 times more than it is now, which is not possible for a country which dont have industry, so without an effort that will take years and billions of dollars.

If Greece, -as the aggressor side-, enters a long-running war against a few times strong and experienced army than its own, the results will be devastating. From our side, this deterrence gives the necessary time to nationalize Turkish military capabilities and make them a X factor.

What you described was the Turkish point of view, which as usual omits crucial parameters such as the Greek aa umbrella, the strength of the Greek air force and also the problems the Turkish air force at the F-16 fleet has due to the American embargo.

First of all, Greece is not the one that wants to expand outside its borders, that is, it does not have an aggressive orientation. The protection of her lands and corresponding offensive strike is her orientation.

You implied in an indirect way that the Greek soldier is not a combatant because he is not on the battlefield. Our difference, however, is that when the Greek soldier needs to fight, it will be for his country, his home and his family.The fact that the Turkish soldier is fighting on 2-3 battle fronts outside Turkish bordrs, is your business, which has to do with false Mîsâk-ı Millî doctrines like "heart Turkish borders reaching Mosul, none of our business.

You talked about air tankers. The reason Greece does not want them is that in the event of a Greek-Turkish war, apart from the fact that they are vulnerable to the Turkish air force, they will waste valuable fighters for their protection.

HAF fleet consists of two main aircraft: the F-16 and the Mirage 2000. After the events of 2020 and the hybrid war declared by Turkey in Greece (which continues), some steps were taken which strengthened the availability of this fleet. E.g. the availability of 40 Mirages, with the help of France, has now reached the amazing rate of 75%, Greece has also procured additional missiles such as Scalp, which have also contributed to the long war capability.

You said that Turkey can raise 70+ aircraft, why won't Greece be able to do the same? Of course it can, it has proven it many times, when Turkey tested the Greek airspace with massive violations.

You forgot to mention the Greek anti-aircraft umbrella, which is a combination of short, medium and long range systems, can deal with a wide range of Turkish threats. I also add that to this umbrella, a modern Israeli anti-drone umbrella is already beginning to be operated, which within a year will cover all borders.

Finally and not to be outdone, the inclusion of 4.5 generation fighter jets, which Turkey does not have, their modern weapons which Turkey also does not have, have already begun to contribute to the air power of the Greek Air Force. By the end of the year, 12 Rafale and 8-10 F-16V will be an additional asset.

Erdogan's Turkey, with the events of 2020, woke up the Greek political leadership from its pacifist lethargy, understood that Turkey is a voracious expansionist state, and within 2 years, things have happened, which even we ourselves did not believe . The F-35s are far away for Greece, but the risk of an invasion by the Turkish troops is present and clear danger.

 

[MeFishToo]

I don't know you either, and I don't know who you mean,

The issue that I would like to draw attention to in the context of the F-35 is that while an important paradigm shift opportunity has been captured for my country's air force, -industrial relations can continue-, but on the basis of the end-systems, it is necessary to take a step towards ending these major dependence on the US aviation industry and so Senate. France has taken this step successfully in the past, and we have to do it too.

The roadmap of the Turkish defense industry and its targets in the 10-20 and 30 year projections are another subject of discussion;

AND the security risks created by the ALIS system (although it has been updated many times), which was created primarily for logistics integrity, but it convey also very critical mission data and flight profiles of F-35 user countries (this system's headquarters is at USAF base); serious operational problems that the system is still experiencing, and US' tendency of use defense relations as political leverage, etc., is a an another side of coin, which is what I mean here.

If the F-35 can overcome its current technical problems, it will become an important combatant platform in the 2030s, I can't dispute that. However, due to its system architecture, this aircraft will be an ideal choice for countries that will fully comply with or full passive with US global policies and interests. Personally, I am against my country taking a step in this direction.

*

Regarding the allegation; Turkiye's aim is to eliminate the US dependency in defense and security needs and to reach a model similar to France in a sense. It cannot achieve this from today to tomorrow, but by seeing the opportunities in areas where paradigm breaks are experienced, it can try to become one of the leading countries in some specific areas, which you can see if you analyze the current SSB-related developments in depth.

Do not forget that Turkiye has an army that has been actively fighting for years. Our soldiers are not in their barracks, but actively on the battlefield. The socio-cultural structure, economy, and inter-institutional organizations of our country are completely designed to live together with the war. What is done here is to put the only missing piece.

I know this: Turkey is dependent on export licence on engines for helicopter, tanks and drones. And not just from the USA. Ships are dependent on Spain, Germany, fighter jets on the UK and main battle tanks south korea.
Intellectual property rights are a major point of contention in the arms industry. I dont see any turkish long term development in the arms industry. I see Erdogan projecting the image of growing military might to the turkish people.

 

[Bengal71]

Turkey needs to realize they were never considered an ally in NATO, they were considered useful, that's all. In the event of an war against Turkey by any enemey if Turkey invokes the article 5 of NATO, NATO countries will find one excuse or other not to help them. Turkey should keep this in mind and when Turkey is needed by the NATO allies to fight a war, Turkey should also find one excuse or other not to join the fight.

 

[KAL-EL]

Grease seems to be getting a lot of goodies lately.

Perhaps the gods are smiling down from Mount Olympus after all

 

[Foinikas]

Turkey is the second biggest arms protector in the NATO after the US... and strategically located at the Black Sea and Mediterranean what a time to sell weapons to a country to be threaten against your frontline nato country what a farce

The problem is that Turkey had been playing on both sides and has been creating a lot of instability in the region.

For example,the S-400 thing,cooperating with Russia in Syria,attacking the Kurds,helping the Azeris against the Armenians,
threatening NATO ships in Libya,threatening Greece...then it's Sweden and Finland etc.

That's the problem. The allies don't see Turkey as a good ally anymore.

 

[waz]

Funny to see two allies treated differently but I get the S-400 threw a spanner in the works.

 

[Foinikas]

I also do not believe that Greece will use this short window of opportunity to embark on a great adventure. All of Greece's military and industrial targets are within the range of even Turkish artillery units.

First of all,our army is only for defence. We don't want a war with Turkey.

Now the problem with the F-35s is that the first ones will be probably delivered in 2028. However,the government has already asked for F-35 simulators,training and other things,as if we are getting them soon.

The good thing is that,by then we will have a full squadron of Rafale F3R and most if not all of the F-16Vs and upgraded F-16 Block 50s.

The Americans offered us another 20.

The air-to-ground ammunition stocks are ridiculous and let me give you an example, only the number of power plants above certain level is higher than 8500, that is far more than entire arsenal of Greece air force. If Greece wants to enter a war, it must increase its ammunition stocks 4-5 times more than it is now, which is not possible for a country which dont have industry, so without an effort that will take years and billions of dollars.

Like I said,our army is only for defence. But right now,we have been buying and ordering a lot of new missiles and equipment.
Apart from the Meteor,SCALP,MICA and Exocet we are also getting

Greece equips its F-16s with Harpoon Block II and AGM-88E AARGM

Greece will buy the AGM-84L Harpoon Block II anti-ship missile and the AGM-88E AARGM anti-radiation missile from the United States, Greek sources reported.

bulgarianmilitary.com

 

[Akritas]

Funny to see two allies treated differently but I get the S-400 threw a spanner in the works.

Allies only on paper, because in practice we are in every kind of war situation. e.g. today we are in a state of hybrid warfare.
The S-400 purchase from Turkey was a gift to Greece, because on the one hand the Americans understood that the Russian-Turkish relations are above from the American-Turkish ones, on the other hand the NATO allies are now giving much more and direct military and geopolitical capital to Greece.

 

[Foinikas]

Funny to see two allies treated differently but I get the S-400 threw a spanner in the works.

I was banned for a week,but I missed you guys

 

[waz]

I was banned for a week,but I missed you guys

Welcome back my friend;

 

[Foinikas]

Welcome back my friend;

What's your opinion on the F-35 in general?

 

[kingQamaR]

The S-400 is generally ineffective against the F-35. It would normally only be able to engage them at ranges shorter than the F-35’s standoff weapons can reach. So Greece would be well served by buying F-35s. Also consider, if the S-400 is so effective than why is Greece buying the Dassault Rafale non-stealth fighter? Greece, which has the S-300 and is well aware of Russian air defense system capabilities, likely understands better than anyone the high degree of hype around the S-400. It may be good, but it is not invincible against either 5th generation or 4th generation aircraft