Greece to purchase 20 F-35 fighters

[White privilege]

F-35 project has become a white elephant.Better invest in the NGAD program and sell upgraded 4.5 Gen to allies, so in the event of conflict, they can actually help the Americans, instead trying out a white elephant.

 

[Beny Karachun]

F-35 project has become a white elephant.Better invest in the NGAD program and sell upgraded 4.5 Gen to allies, so in the event of conflict, they can actually help the Americans, instead trying out a white elephant.

20 F-35s have the air to air capability to destroy 70 F-16s easily and get out unharmed and undetected.

 

[White privilege]

20 F-35s have the air to air capability to destroy 70 F-16s easily and get out unharmed and undetected.

Real battle doesn't quite work in this mathematical manner.

 

[Akritas]

It's not about the threat, my dear friend. We're trying to explain that it's against the agreements. If you continue to erode Lausanne and Paris the Turkish side will begin to do the same.

What we advocate is the non-violation of the guarantees contained in the conditional transfer of islands.

The first that violate the Lausanne agreement is Turkey, where in 1955 you terrorized, killed and expelled the 50000 Greeks of Constantinople.
Subsequently, and in the well-known Turkish program of national cleansings and displacements, in the mid of 1960s, Turkey built open prisons and established special forces camps on the islands of Tenedos and Imbros, that has as resulting the terrorism and final the expulsion of the 15000 Greek native population.
At the same time, we have the enlargement of the 4th Turkish Army, based in Smyrna, where the threats of invasions in Cyprus and Kastellorizo began.
Finally in 1974, we had the invasion in Cyprus, that was made in violation of the treaties, and the 4th Army was renamed to Aegean Army.
After all this, you have the audacity to talk about breaching treaties.

Erdogan

Erdogan's arrogance and bigotry, if we want to be more specific.

 

[Beny Karachun]

Real battle doesn't quite work in this mathematical manner.

I'm just stating the facts. F-35s can get into a guaranteed kill zone with their AIM120s without being detected by 4th gen aircraft.

 

[dBSPL]

LOL. People who have no depth of knowledge about the subject, inevitably drag the subject to nonsense points with irrelevant posts after a while. And it is tragicomedy that they have only superficial thoughts even at the absurd points where they drag the subject.

***


Let's take a look from the perspective of a Greek officers:

Greek Air Force Academy - Electronics, Electrical, Telecommunications Department Lecturer Konstantinos Zikidis, some important thoughts about the Greek air force

O εκσυγχρονισμός 121 μαχητικών F-16, αναβαθμίζει τον μελλοντικό ρόλο του F-35 στην Πολεμική Αεροπορία - Defence Review

Η αποστολή LοR (Letter of Request) for LoA (Letter of Acceptance) στις ΗΠΑ (https://defencereview.gr/polemiki-aeroporia-apostoli-episimo/) για την αγορά 20+20 F-35A πριν από λίγα μόλις εικοσιτετράωρα και αμέσως μετά την έγκριση από τη Βουλή των Ελλήνων του εκσυγχρονισμού των 38 F-16 Block 50 της...

defencereview.gr

> It is well known that I watched the F-35 in particular with reservations. It is well known that there are about 750 registered issues (increasing instead of decreasing), very high procurement costs (not per unit, but entire package) and especially very high operating costs (company's report).

> The intention to reduce the operating cost to less than $25,000 in 2025 seems cheesy as it is so far from reality, often disguised by the fact that this is the budget value for fiscal 2012 and not the present value.

> When it comes to detecting stealth threats like the F-35, our findings tell us that the saying holds true: on a frequency basis, the lower the better. And we know that our neighbor (TR) has several LM FPS-117 and Leonardo RAT-31D radars transmitting in the L band (relatively low).

> These can provide a detection distance of roughly 100 nm against the F-35. In addition, Turkiye's flying radars operate in the same band.

By the end of the next decade, when we assume we will get the first F-35s, no one can prevent them from acquiring more L-band or even lower frequency radars (UHF/VHF-band). The fact of the matter is that they may already own what they have developed/produced by that time.

> In the Greece Air Force, the Block 50 upgrade to 50M is quite a few (38). The eventual upgrade of Block 50s to Vipers will offer greater flexibility and economies of scale in terms of operating costs. Therefore, under the current circumstances, the upgrade decided seems to be the optimal solution as the budget is constrained. However, the cost of the upgrade will be much higher. however, studies, prototyping, testing, etc. will require a lot of money, a lot of time and a lot of risk. Time is a critical parameter.

> I believe this is one of the main reasons the US decided to upgrade the 608 F-16: in the long run, it will pay for itself due to lower radar support costs, while still having the capabilities of an AESA radar.

 

[Foinikas]

It's not about the threat, my dear friend. We're trying to explain that it's against the agreements. If you continue to erode Lausanne and Paris the Turkish side will begin to do the same.

So basically it's an excuse to attack and take the islands. Like I've explained to you,we are not doing anything outside of the Treaties and international law. Because you accepted the militarisation of the northern Aegean Islands and you are not a signatory member when it comes to the Dodecanese.

So Turkey is just looking for excuses. And why is Akar annoyed by Greek politicians visiting the islands? They are our territory.

LOL. People who have no depth of knowledge about the subject, inevitably drag the subject to nonsense points with irrelevant posts after a while. And it is tragicomedy that they have only superficial thoughts even at the absurd points where they drag the subject.

***


Let's take a look from the perspective of a Greek officers:

Greek Air Force Academy - Electronics, Electrical, Telecommunications Department Lecturer Konstantinos Zikidis, some important thoughts about the Greek air force

O εκσυγχρονισμός 121 μαχητικών F-16, αναβαθμίζει τον μελλοντικό ρόλο του F-35 στην Πολεμική Αεροπορία - Defence Review

Η αποστολή LοR (Letter of Request) for LoA (Letter of Acceptance) στις ΗΠΑ (https://defencereview.gr/polemiki-aeroporia-apostoli-episimo/) για την αγορά 20+20 F-35A πριν από λίγα μόλις εικοσιτετράωρα και αμέσως μετά την έγκριση από τη Βουλή των Ελλήνων του εκσυγχρονισμού των 38 F-16 Block 50 της...

defencereview.gr

> It is well known that I watched the F-35 in particular with reservations. It is well known that there are about 750 registered issues (increasing instead of decreasing), very high procurement costs (not per unit, but entire package) and especially very high operating costs (company's report).

> The intention to reduce the operating cost to less than $25,000 in 2025 seems cheesy as it is so far from reality, often disguised by the fact that this is the budget value for fiscal 2012 and not the present value.

> When it comes to detecting stealth threats like the F-35, our findings tell us that the saying holds true: on a frequency basis, the lower the better. And we know that our neighbor (TR) has several LM FPS-117 and Leonardo RAT-31D radars transmitting in the L band (relatively low).

> These can provide a detection distance of roughly 100 nm against the F-35. In addition, Turkiye's flying radars operate in the same band.

By the end of the next decade, when we assume we will get the first F-35s, no one can prevent them from acquiring more L-band or even lower frequency radars (UHF/VHF-band). The fact of the matter is that they may already own what they have developed/produced by that time.

> In the Greece Air Force, the Block 50 upgrade to 50M is quite a few (38). The eventual upgrade of Block 50s to Vipers will offer greater flexibility and economies of scale in terms of operating costs. Therefore, under the current circumstances, the upgrade decided seems to be the optimal solution as the budget is constrained. However, the cost of the upgrade will be much higher. however, studies, prototyping, testing, etc. will require a lot of money, a lot of time and a lot of risk. Time is a critical parameter.

> I believe this is one of the main reasons the US decided to upgrade the 608 F-16: in the long run, it will pay for itself due to lower radar support costs, while still having the capabilities of an AESA radar.

Yeah but I'd least we'll have about 84 F-16Vs and 38 upgraded F-16 50s by then.

 

[Clutch]

Didn't Greece just go bankrupt just a few years ago???.... What happened ... Now they are buying a boat load of F-35???...

 

[Ghazwa-e-Hind]

I dont have much knowledge on fighter jets.

The F-35 is designed to be heavy maintenance jet, we used to make fun of Russians for Sukhois grounded most of time for maintenance.

Countries should ditch F-35 and opt for the F-22. The stealthiness is useless if it costs a fortune to maintain it.

 

[Akritas]

So Turkey is just looking for excuses. And why is Akar annoyed by Greek politicians visiting the islands? They are our territory.

Βecause one photo is equal with 1000 words, Turkish minister Akar, at the TAF operational center, with a prominent place-without hiding-information maps of targeted facilities in Greek Aegean islands.

 

[dBSPL]

So basically it's an excuse to attack and take the islands. Like I've explained to you,we are not doing anything outside of the Treaties and international law. Because you accepted the militarisation of the northern Aegean Islands and you are not a signatory member when it comes to the Dodecanese.

So Turkey is just looking for excuses. And why is Akar annoyed by Greek politicians visiting the islands? They are our territory.


Yeah but I'd least we'll have about 84 F-16Vs and 38 upgraded F-16 50s by then.

The Straits Convention is a sea transition regime that aims to secure the international transit route. It also limits the passage of foreign warships to the Black Sea.

Greece cannot make a hypothetical interpretation of this agreement unilateral and in its favor. In Montreux, there is no article about Greece in the Straits agreement, there is no statement regarding the Greek islands.

On the other hand, valid articles are clearly written one by one, under which terms of transfer about how Greece officially took over the sovereignty of the islands.

In the Paris Agreement, which concerns the 12 Islands, the condition of transferring the sovereign rights of the islands was designed directly to address Turkiye's security concerns. The fact that TR is not a party to this agreement does not mean that it will remain silent about the violation of this agreement.

Greece accepted these conditions. If Greece declares its exit from these agreements, TR's strategy will be shaped accordingly.

There is no valid agreement preventing Turkiye's military establishment on the eastern shores of the Aegean, but Greece have on some written areas. Knowing these conditions, Greece signed these agreements. The address of these problems is not the US Senate, but the dialogue between the two countries.

It is Turkiye that has committed to not holding exercises in the Aegean during the summer months in order not to undermine Greek tourism. A much more historical example: When Greece unilaterally disregarded Lausanne and increased its territorial waters from 3 miles to 6 miles, we did not object to this in order to preserve good neighborly relations. We are not as uncompromising as you might think. But if you try to put this knife to the bone, we cannot remain unresponsive.

I don't know what all this has to do with the F-35 issue. It is obvious that we cannot agree on this issue, so there is no need for us to get into this deadlock on every separate topic.

 

[Akritas]

Didn't Greece just go bankrupt just a few years ago???.... What happened ... Now they are buying a boat load of F-35???...

Debt is high as a percentage of GDP, but tranches have been arranged through the Eurozone, ECB and the IMF to make it sustainable. The debt to the IMF has already been repaid.
Regarding the purchase of F35, any payment will begin with the end of the F16V program, i.e. in 2027 or 2028 with a ten-year duration.

 

[aviator_fan]

Turkiye is a country with a resident population approaching 100 million; and over 100 million together with its diaspora in Europe, the Balkans and the Middle East. It is a country whose industrial capacity has increased by 30% annually, and its industrial figures have been breaking new records every month. There is a complete boom in industrial investments. It is visited by 40 million tourists annually; together with its facilities and institutional infrastructure, it holds the most important tourism industry in its region. It doubled its energy supply in 20 years, and rebuilt its entire logistics and infrastructure. It is either a regional leader or has the highest growth figures in Europe in many sectors such as automotive and sub-industry, shipbuilding, machinery, manufacturing, construction and defense. It is the strongest country in the region in terms of service sectors. With the efforts of TPAO, it will end foreign dependency on fossil fuels in 20 years(which is biggest problem of Turkish economy right now), and it will become production center for strategic industrial raw materials, especially with REE, with organizations such as Eti-Maden. It is becoming production center that is opening Europe's largest facilities in renewable energy and battery production for example. Even now, only machinery exports are greater than Greece's total exports. In debt terms, the ratio of the country's total external debt to GDP is 37%.

The devaluation of TL does not mean everything by itself as a macroeconomic indicator. You can't get a meaningful macro view without combining this with industry and production data, sectoral profitabilities and balance sheets.

Wide space and advantages created by the geopolitic conditions for Turkiye is a completely different discussion.

Moreover, in which topic are we discussing these issues? Greece. Its population is 7 million. Its entire industry output is smaller than any province of the Marmara region in Turkiye. No production but Its debt stock is 3 times the GDP and it is a technically bankrupt country. It is unlikely that it will even slow down debt growth until 2040. In the field of defense, it is completely dependent on foreign countries and continues to purchase weapons with long-term debts. Greece is the country that spends the most money per capita on armament in the world. The fate awaiting Greece is pretty clear if Turkiye heats up the arms race a bit.

With regard to the F-35, Turkiye has made good profit of approximately 7-8 billion dollars from this project, which is large enough to finance the MMU. The project, which started in 2011, will start delivering aircraft to the air force as of 2028. In another important project, Kızılelma, deliveries will start from 2025.

The structuring in defense, which started after the 1974 embargoes, turned into a de facto strategy with the 2004 SSIK decisions. We will begin to see the results of these efforts from the end of the 2020s. We have a few barriers ahead of us. However, there are very good developments in these areas that increase our hope. Our aim is to end foreign dependency in the field of defense and security, in a model similar to that of France. As a by-product of these efforts, the Turkish defense industry is the fastest growing sector in the world in terms of turnover, and exporting to 176 countries today.

In fact, I can discuss each of these issues one by one under its own special title, and show you very detailed reports and international audit results. However, your superficial knowledge of Turkiye's opinions is just as much as some media campaigns and news headlines that have been caught in the tail of the anti-TR campaign, so your awereness is not suitable for discussing them.

The point was not to compare Greece's economy to Turkey. It was that irrational decisions made by the leader (like picking a worthless S-400 over a plane that it could reap decades of benefit thousands got produced). Turkey would have had 100s of F-35s.

This is recreating narrative of history what you outline that it was the best thing that happened to Turkey to have left the F-35 program. If leaving the F-35 program was such a good idea, then why have joined it at all and gone it all alone? Or was that the plan all along that to do the F-35 program just to the point that production started and then be shown the door.

And you do know that Turkey is pretty much asking for one way or the other to get F-16Vs. If the decisions were so sensible , then why go with a begging bowl and get the F-16 or then fall back on Typhoon. I think strongman leaders should make the right decisions for the country but should have the ability to deliver. Not be emperors with no clothes on. Get kicked out of F-35 only to go beg for F-16s when your #1 adversary just moved up the food chain to F-35.

I have no way to know if Turkey's industry is growing and it may very well be and I hope that it is and outpaces Greece and every other neighbors in all vectors. But I also know that with an inflation rate of 76% year over year published just today, is not sustainable. This is what countries on verge of collapse do.