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Greece to purchase 20 F-35 fighters

What's your opinion on the F-35 in general?

Great jet the best alongside the F-22 and the J-20 nothing else comes close.
It's operated by many allies of Greece (no shortage of training partners), has economies of scale, it's sensor suites are amazing etc.
It's an excellent buy.
 
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The S-400 is generally ineffective against the F-35. It would normally only be able to engage them at ranges shorter than the F-35’s standoff weapons can reach. So Greece would be well served by buying F-35s. Also consider, if the S-400 is so effective than why is Greece buying the Dassault Rafale non-stealth fighter? Greece, which has the S-300 and is well aware of Russian air defense system capabilities, likely understands better than anyone the high degree of hype around the S-400. It may be good, but it is not invincible against either 5th generation or 4th generation aircraft
Previously I mentioned about the military capital that Greece gained - and is gaining - after the aggressive behavior of Turkey. As a result of this capital, it was the acquisition of 12 used Rafales at 50% of their price, 12 new Rafales at 75% and of course the acquisition of at least 50 Meteors (final number unknown), a total of 24 4.5 generation aircraft, 12 within 2 years, all together in just 4.
This will result in retirement(transition to France) of 35 older Mirage 2000s.
Coming out of nowhere, and within 4 years, the Hellenic air force acquired 24 4.5 generation aircraft.

The S300 was never a choice of the Greek armed forces, they came out of nowhere in Greece, after Turkey's threats to Cyprus, Greece always preferred the Patriot. I wish we could send them to Ukraine and get other batteries, like used Patriots.
 
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So Greece is getting them but Turkiye, a Nato member isn't! How will Turkiye respond remains to be seen. It will change the balance of power in Greece favour significantly.
Well, they were warned not to buy the S-400.
 
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I am joking don't take it serious...its Sunday.

Hopefully Greece will love in peace with its neighbours and will be prosperous


Loooool best thing for Turkey is not to get the f35s
Probably not the best thing for Turkey to be booted out as an industrial partner of F-35 and to be going back and asking for additional F-16s (Vs and upgrade kits). How is this the best thing? And if they don't get F-16s, it will be Typhoon. Sacrificed a Gen 5 aircraft to go back to Gen 4 compromise, only because of Erdogan's impulsiveness and lack of rationality.

Same principles that has been used for economic mismanagement and firing economists from central bank as in 8 years the Turkish lira is worth 1/8th of what it used to be. Great if you want to visit a cheap place as a tourist, but horrible if you live there and see your purchasing power vanish....

Who thought that Greece would have a saner approach
 
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Probably not the best thing for Turkey to be booted out as an industrial partner of F-35 and to be going back and asking for additional F-16s (Vs and upgrade kits). How is this the best thing? And if they don't get F-16s, it will be Typhoon. Sacrificed a Gen 5 aircraft to go back to Gen 4 compromise, only because of Erdogan's impulsiveness and lack of rationality.

Same principles that has been used for economic mismanagement and firing economists from central bank as in 8 years the Turkish lira is worth 1/8th of what it used to be. Great if you want to visit a cheap place as a tourist, but horrible if you live there and see your purchasing power vanish....

Who thought that Greece would have a saner approach
What you forget is that Turkey was a basket case like Pakistan. Huge debt and similar per capita income.
The run on the lira was economic war against Turkey after the standoff with Israel. They tried and failed at a coup and decided to do Turkey economically.
Losers alway have a mentality that we must remain subservient to the master. Turkey will be a 5 gen fighter nation by itself. Who would have thought Turkey would be where it is 20 years ago.
 
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Probably not the best thing for Turkey to be booted out as an industrial partner of F-35 and to be going back and asking for additional F-16s (Vs and upgrade kits). How is this the best thing? And if they don't get F-16s, it will be Typhoon. Sacrificed a Gen 5 aircraft to go back to Gen 4 compromise, only because of Erdogan's impulsiveness and lack of rationality.

Same principles that has been used for economic mismanagement and firing economists from central bank as in 8 years the Turkish lira is worth 1/8th of what it used to be. Great if you want to visit a cheap place as a tourist, but horrible if you live there and see your purchasing power vanish....

Who thought that Greece would have a saner approach
Turkiye is a country with a resident population approaching 100 million; and over 100 million together with its diaspora in Europe, the Balkans and the Middle East. It is a country whose industrial capacity has increased by 30% annually, and its industrial figures have been breaking new records every month. There is a complete boom in industrial investments. It is visited by 40 million tourists annually; together with its facilities and institutional infrastructure, it holds the most important tourism industry in its region. It doubled its energy supply in 20 years, and rebuilt its entire logistics and infrastructure. It is either a regional leader or has the highest growth figures in Europe in many sectors such as automotive and sub-industry, shipbuilding, machinery, manufacturing, construction and defense. It is the strongest country in the region in terms of service sectors. With the efforts of TPAO, it will end foreign dependency on fossil fuels in 20 years(which is biggest problem of Turkish economy right now), and it will become production center for strategic industrial raw materials, especially with REE, with organizations such as Eti-Maden. It is becoming production center that is opening Europe's largest facilities in renewable energy and battery production for example. Even now, only machinery exports are greater than Greece's total exports. In debt terms, the ratio of the country's total external debt to GDP is 37%.

The devaluation of TL does not mean everything by itself as a macroeconomic indicator. You can't get a meaningful macro view without combining this with industry and production data, sectoral profitabilities and balance sheets.

Wide space and advantages created by the geopolitic conditions for Turkiye is a completely different discussion.

Moreover, in which topic are we discussing these issues? Greece. Its population is 7 million. Its entire industry output is smaller than any province of the Marmara region in Turkiye. No production but Its debt stock is 3 times the GDP and it is a technically bankrupt country. It is unlikely that it will even slow down debt growth until 2040. In the field of defense, it is completely dependent on foreign countries and continues to purchase weapons with long-term debts. Greece is the country that spends the most money per capita on armament in the world. The fate awaiting Greece is pretty clear if Turkiye heats up the arms race a bit.

With regard to the F-35, Turkiye has made good profit of approximately 7-8 billion dollars from this project, which is large enough to finance the MMU. The project, which started in 2011, will start delivering aircraft to the air force as of 2028. In another important project, Kızılelma, deliveries will start from 2025.

The structuring in defense, which started after the 1974 embargoes, turned into a de facto strategy with the 2004 SSIK decisions. We will begin to see the results of these efforts from the end of the 2020s. We have a few barriers ahead of us. However, there are very good developments in these areas that increase our hope. Our aim is to end foreign dependency in the field of defense and security, in a model similar to that of France. As a by-product of these efforts, the Turkish defense industry is the fastest growing sector in the world in terms of turnover, and exporting to 176 countries today.

In fact, I can discuss each of these issues one by one under its own special title, and show you very detailed reports and international audit results. However, your superficial knowledge of Turkiye's opinions is just as much as some media campaigns and news headlines that have been caught in the tail of the anti-TR campaign, so your awereness is not suitable for discussing them.
 
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Let's come to the F-35: Nearly all of the approximately 750 F-35s produced and delivered to date are “so-called initial production models” that do not yet meet all the requirements of a fully developed aircraft.

A report from the U.S. Office of Government Responsibilities (GAO) made it clear that "more and more F-35s have to "stay on the ground" because the engines are not running. It specifically warns that 43 percent of F-35s will become unflyable by 2030. The same report has revealed that 826 flaws in F-35s, of which 4 are critical.

In the reports of the responsible US test authority, new deficiencies in the areas of sensor fusion, communication and navigation, cyber security, target designation were found in the F-35s in 2021. It is pointed out that most of the difficulties, especially 6 errors in sensitive areas, are caused by software problems.

The Pentagon also prepares inspection reports for F-35s every year. The Pentagon published a report in March of this year that also listed the major shortcomings of the F-35s. According to this, “There are 845 faults in the jets that was delivered and 6 of them are serious and can cause accidents”.

Despite all these problems, the costs are inversely proportional: It is assumed that Germany's supply of F-35, will cost to German taxpayers 5.7 billion euros. This amount does not include the armament of the F-35s and other necessary infrastructure preparation expenses.

The F-35 is by no means a bad aircraft. But it's the scariest project management in US aviation history. LM and related instutions continues to milking the ministry of defense while US air force urgently needs aircraft with full operational capability. Problems related to planning, technical, cost and procurement, operational capability acquisition are incessantly. The project has already doubled in cost despite decade of delays for FRIP. Even the USA's own forces are in a planning that excludes the F-35 in new orders and planning, except for certain conditions.

Let's say these technical problems can be overcome until the 2030s.

But, Another aspect of the issue is that non-US operator countries face a very serious data and information security risk under logistics management planning. Basically, the F-35 is an ideal joint platform for countries that will only be 100% in line with US interests and remain passive. Even the pilot need to enters the username and password to operate the aircraft's electrical systems.

As long as the USA protects its regional policies that directly threaten the national security of Turkiye, especially supporting the pkk terrorist organization and Feto terrorists; It's a godsend for us to be excluded from the F-35 project.

We've been asking Patriots from the US for nearly 20 years. Many times, this issue was tried to be used as a political leverage in the Senate, and eventually we reached the competence to produce our own systems.

The lack of F-35 aircraft will also be eliminated somehow. It would be foolish to think otherwise.

If Greece wants to buy the F-35, adding about $10-20-30 billion to its debt, why should we oppose it?
 
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Turkiye is a country with a resident population approaching 100 million; and over 100 million together with its diaspora in Europe, the Balkans and the Middle East. It is a country whose industrial capacity has increased by 30% annually, and its industrial figures have been breaking new records every month. There is a complete boom in industrial investments. It is visited by 40 million tourists annually; together with its facilities and institutional infrastructure, it holds the most important tourism industry in its region. It doubled its energy supply in 20 years, and rebuilt its entire logistics and infrastructure. It is either a regional leader or has the highest growth figures in Europe in many sectors such as automotive and sub-industry, shipbuilding, machinery, manufacturing, construction and defense. It is the strongest country in the region in terms of service sectors. With the efforts of TPAO, it will end foreign dependency on fossil fuels in 20 years(which is biggest problem of Turkish economy right now), and it will become production center for strategic industrial raw materials, especially with REE, with organizations such as Eti-Maden. It is becoming production center that is opening Europe's largest facilities in renewable energy and battery production for example. Even now, only machinery exports are greater than Greece's total exports. In debt terms, the ratio of the country's total external debt to GDP is 37%.

The devaluation of TL does not mean everything by itself as a macroeconomic indicator. You can't get a meaningful macro view without combining this with industry and production data, sectoral profitabilities and balance sheets.

Wide space and advantages created by the geopolitic conditions for Turkiye is a completely different discussion.

Moreover, in which topic are we discussing these issues? Greece. Its population is 7 million. Its entire industry output is smaller than any province of the Marmara region in Turkiye. No production but Its debt stock is 3 times the GDP and it is a technically bankrupt country. It is unlikely that it will even slow down debt growth until 2040. In the field of defense, it is completely dependent on foreign countries and continues to purchase weapons with long-term debts. Greece is the country that spends the most money per capita on armament in the world. The fate awaiting Greece is pretty clear if Turkiye heats up the arms race a bit.

With regard to the F-35, Turkiye has made good profit of approximately 7-8 billion dollars from this project, which is large enough to finance the MMU. The project, which started in 2011, will start delivering aircraft to the air force as of 2028. In another important project, Kızılelma, deliveries will start from 2025.

The structuring in defense, which started after the 1974 embargoes, turned into a de facto strategy with the 2004 SSIK decisions. We will begin to see the results of these efforts from the end of the 2020s. We have a few barriers ahead of us. However, there are very good developments in these areas that increase our hope. Our aim is to end foreign dependency in the field of defense and security, in a model similar to that of France. As a by-product of these efforts, the Turkish defense industry is the fastest growing sector in the world in terms of turnover, and exporting to 176 countries today.

In fact, I can discuss each of these issues one by one under its own special title, and show you very detailed reports and international audit results. However, your superficial knowledge of Turkiye's opinions is just as much as some media campaigns and news headlines that have been caught in the tail of the anti-TR campaign, so your awereness is not suitable for discussing them.
Then why do you feel threatened by some small garrisons on islands of Eastern Aegean? You have presented your country as a superpower,why do you feel threatened by Greece then?

By the way,we're not 7 million. We're about 11,000,000. And you are about 84,000,000 people from which about 14,7 million are Kurds.

Yes,still you are a gigantic country with a big population and bigger economy.
 
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Then why do you feel threatened by some small garrisons in islands of Eastern Aegean? You have presented your country as a superpower,why do you feel threatened by Greece then?

By the way,we're not 7 million. We're about 11,000,000. And you are about 84,000,000 people from which about 14,7 million are Kurds.

Yes,still you are a gigantic country with a big population and bigger economy.
It's not about the threat, my dear friend. We're trying to explain that it's against the agreements. If you continue to erode Lausanne and Paris the Turkish side will begin to do the same.

What we advocate is the non-violation of the guarantees contained in the conditional transfer of islands.
 
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Anyone who has some idea about the events that led Turkiye to purchase the S-400 will see that the US Senate is using this S400 issue as an excuse, while in reality the real problem is much more fundamental and strategic disagreements. Even if Turkiye gives up the use of the S-400 today, the result will not change.

Turkiye will not negotiate with the US on issues concerning its national security, and unless it does, the US will abandon its understanding of balance on military sales in the region in the past. Since the USA will not observe this balance, Turkiye inevitably has to develop its domestic production capabilities.



Erdogan was a big F-35 fan. In fact, he was the one who put the F-35B on the country's agenda. So these are super-superficial point of view that completely ignores the process that bring these results.
 
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Erdogan was a big F-35 fan. In fact, he was the one who put the F-35B on the country's agenda. So these are super-superficial point of view that completely ignores the process that bring these results.
He then also needed to bring back relations with Russia after shooting down the Russian Su-24.

If I had to guess the purchase of the S-400 would be some sort of compensation.

Anyways, Erdogan chose the S-400 and not the F-35 literally designed to counter it. It's like choosing medieval armor and not a gun.
 
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