Govt can invoke Article 6 to try terror suspects instead of military courts: SC

[VCheng]

But I believe you can do more by actually making a change in your perception

What a stirring and passionate speech! I saw the same nation that you describe was created out of thin air and was capable of helping others. I know. I was there. I was a productive part of it too. But then you jump straight to a nation that can light up again, without mentioning all of things that led to that fire being extinguished in the first place. I saw all that happen before my eyes too. So there is nothing wrong with my perception since I have seen, and can still see, all sides of an issue, without any particular slant, for that is the only way to be real in assessing the situation. What's more is that I have also seen what it is like in many other parts of the world, so my comparisons are born of direct experiences.

So frankly, Sir, I do not care whether you , or anybody else like or dislike what I post. Just be assured that it is always honest and unadulterated by any selfish or dogmatic considerations. Always.

So coming back to the topic, all those who are berating the SC because it is not working as they wish to see it should keep in mind that what the military is promising as quick justice is a false hope that it will improve the situation. Mark my words. It will lead to an even bigger disaster with the justice system, unless the letter and spirit of the Constitution is followed by all sides concerned.

 

[salarsikander]

What a stirring and passionate speech! I saw the same nation that you describe was created out of thin air and was capable of helping others. I know. I was there. I was a productive part of it too. But then you jump straight to a nation that can light up again, without mentioning all of things that led to that fire being extinguished in the first place. I saw all that happen before my eyes too. So there is nothing wrong wit my perception since I have seen, and can still see, all sides of an issue, without any particular slant, for that is the only way to be real in assessing the situation. What's more is that I have also seen what it is like in many other parts of the world, so my comparisons are born of direct experiences.

So frankly, Sir, I do not care whether you , or anybody else like or dislike what I post. Just be assured that it is always honest and unadulterated by any selfish or dogmatic considerations. Always.

So coming back to the topic, all those who are berating the SC because it is not working as they wish to see it should keep in mind that what the military is promising as quick justice is a false hope that it will improve the situation. Mark my words. It will lead to an even bigger disaster with the justice system, unless the letter and spirit of the Constitution is followed by all sides concerned.

Hi,

Your post was well received and appreciated.

No matter how much substance your post carries, it lacks the very fire that I mentioned.

Nations like USA germany or any other for that matter haven't seen easy past. As I previously mentioned. For a nations which is barely 68 years old we are doing fine and we will improve.

Justice system has to bee free from corruption and be be able to dispense justice without any grudge or anything, sadly none of these traits can be found in current system.

Once we have qualified non-biased people fit for job , then when we can talk about it. But for now, as situation warrants, with terrorism rampaging, we need swift and speedy justice, its been like what now 13 years or so ? that we havent seen single terrorist being hanged.

I am not undermining the capacity of any institution here, but when I see the institution such as Judiciary not doing its job I pray My jawans ,like always they have, carry out the final Inna lila of terrorists

 

[mr.robot]

What a stirring and passionate speech! I saw the same nation that you describe was created out of thin air and was capable of helping others. I know. I was there. I was a productive part of it too. But then you jump straight to a nation that can light up again, without mentioning all of things that led to that fire being extinguished in the first place. I saw all that happen before my eyes too. So there is nothing wrong wit my perception since I have seen, and can still see, all sides of an issue, without any particular slant, for that is the only way to be real in assessing the situation. What's more is that I have also seen what it is like in many other parts of the world, so my comparisons are born of direct experiences.

So frankly, Sir, I do not care whether you , or anybody else like or dislike what I post. Just be assured that it is always honest and unadulterated by any selfish or dogmatic considerations. Always.

So coming back to the topic, all those who are berating the SC because it is not working as they wish to see it should keep in mind that what the military is promising as quick justice is a false hope that it will improve the situation. Mark my words. It will lead to an even bigger disaster with the justice system, unless the letter and spirit of the Constitution is followed by all sides concerned.

Classic chicken and egg problem. As I can see, Army is trying their best to remain within parameters of constitution whether through amendments or new laws. However, judges need to realize that these are extra ordinary circumstances and they either need to accommodate the extra ordinary solution or get their asses up to work in speedy manner. Otherwise, the de facto Soft Coup won't remain Soft any more....

 

[VCheng]

Hi,

Your post was well received and appreciated.

No matter how much substance your post carries, it lacks the very fire that I mentioned.

Nations like USA germany or any other for that matter haven't seen easy past. As I previously mentioned. For a nations which is barely 68 years old we are doing fine and we will improve.

Justice system has to bee free from corruption and be be able to dispense justice without any grudge or anything, sadly none of these traits can be found in current system.

Once we have qualified non-biased people fit for job , then when we can talk about it. But for now, as situation warrants, with terrorism rampaging, we need swift and speedy justice, its been like what now 13 years or so ? that we havent seen single terrorist being hanged.

I am not undermining the capacity of any institution here, but when I see the institution such as Judiciary not doing its job I pray My jawans ,like always they have, carry out the final Inna lila of terrorists

I prefer to go by cold logic than by fiery passion Sir.

Pakistan's road to hell is paved as predicted - with good intentions, just like the ones you mention. This doctrine of "as the situation warrants" is at the very heart of the adhocism that that undermined all national institutions to their very core. It may work for a while, but in the end the price is always more than what the results are worth. That leaves the whole nation worse off than before, and we keep on repeating the same steps over and over again.

Classic chicken and egg problem. As I can see, Army is trying their best to remain within parameters of constitution whether through amendments or new laws. However, judges need to realize that these are extra ordinary circumstances and they either need to accommodate the extra ordinary solution or get their asses up to work in speedy manner. Otherwise, the de facto Soft Coup won't remain Soft any more....

Ah yes, the good old combination of the Doctrine of Necessity and outright threat and blackmail. Martial Law now would be just as big a disaster as it was in the past.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Hi,
hence to speed up the process is why these courts were there.

I would rather see military courts than sold-out judiciary.

Not that i am supporting military courts, but as a citizen of PAkistan who too has suffered at the hands of terrorism, it doesn't matter who calls the shots on these barbarians, what matters these people should face the punishment either by civil courts or military.

For the past 13 years we have seen the track record of such courts

He's right. The military should not be doing this. This is EXACTLY the same issue as with dictatorships. Military rule comes along, or alternative governance, destroys what weak civilian authority there was, undermining and sometimes destroying civilian institutions, hence we suffer when the obvious outcome of civilian rule is reached.

Military intervention like this for the short term seems good, I agree. In the long term, it is ALWAYS incredibly damaging.

 

[VCheng]

He's right. The military should not be doing this. This is EXACTLY the same issue as with dictatorships. Military rule comes along, or alternative governance, destroys what weak civilian authority there was, undermining and sometimes destroying civilian institutions, hence we suffer when the obvious outcome of civilian rule is reached.

Military intervention like this for the short term seems good, I agree. In the long term, it is ALWAYS incredibly damaging.

What is even worse is the blind insistence that we keep on repeating this endless cycle of self-destruction.

 

[Jungibaaz]

We need to get rid of this shi*** judicial system which has no credibility at all.
To hell with those who say Military Courts r illegal or unconstitutional.They need to open their eyes and look around.My dear countrymen/women,we r in a state of war and need a quick judicial system to quickly erradicate terrorism.And as civil courts r not doing their job proparly,so MC's r the need of the hour

Quick fix is not usually the right fix or the better.

What is even worse is the blind insistence that we keep on repeating this endless cycle of self-destruction.

We don't learn, anyone still thinking that the army and civilian roles mix, has been asleep for many decades now.

 

[VCheng]

Quick fix is not usually the right fix or the better.



We don't learn, anyone still thinking that the army and civilian roles mix, has been asleep for many decades now.

Please take a gander over to this thread too, before I am lynched, and tell me if I said anything wrong or objectionable:

The army's present authority...where does it come from?

 

[salarsikander]

Quick fix is not usually the right fix or the better.



We don't learn, anyone still thinking that the army and civilian roles mix, has been asleep for many decades now.

Hi,

With all due respect my arguments is so that means we accept more of Peshawar kind of incidents?

There would have been no need to dispense justice by MC, if SC was doing its job right.

We wait a moment longer to fight over who has to dispense justice, they take 2-3 of our soldiers including some civies

I prefer to go by cold logic than by fiery passion Sir.

Pakistan's road to hell is paved as predicted - with good intentions, just like the ones you mention. This doctrine of "as the situation warrants" is at the very heart of the adhocism that that undermined all national institutions to their very core. It may work for a while, but in the end the price is always more than what the results are worth. That leaves the whole nation worse off than before, and we keep on repeating the same steps over and over again.

Hi,
rest assured military is not all interested in Martial law, But yes they are the ones who are calling shots.

I prefer men with uniform to call shots behind scenes using the people who are interested in tying up their Nara and talking about keeme ke parhatay.

National Institutions are filled with corrupt incompetent, unqualified and what not officials, if the case was otherwise, trust me I would have supported the argument of it here.

 

[VCheng]

.............
Hi,
rest assured military is not all interested in Martial law, But yes they are the ones who are calling shots.

I prefer men with uniform to call shots behind scenes using the people who are interested in tying up their Nara and talking about keeme ke parhatay.

National Institutions are filled with corrupt incompetent, unqualified and what not officials, if the case was otherwise, trust me I would have supported the argument of it here.

Sir, your argument would hold weight if the Army also is not filled with "corrupt incompetent, unqualified and what not officials", since it is derived from the same nation that mans the other national institutions. And as long as we honestly admit that it is the Army that calls the shots, that is a clear admission of illegal usurpation of authority, no matter how fervent the justifications. There is no way around this, unfortunately.

 

[mr.robot]

I prefer to go by cold logic than by fiery passion Sir.

Pakistan's road to hell is paved as predicted - with good intentions, just like the ones you mention. This doctrine of "as the situation warrants" is at the very heart of the adhocism that that undermined all national institutions to their very core. It may work for a while, but in the end the price is always more than what the results are worth. That leaves the whole nation worse off than before, and we keep on repeating the same steps over and over again.



Ah yes, the good old combination of the Doctrine of Necessity and outright threat and blackmail. Martial Law now would be just as big a disaster as it was in the past.

No outright threat. Army created this mess and have paid the price. Now the chap holding the stick is hell bent to clear the mess to best of my understanding. They are using the civilian and military mix for now and politicians in one way or other are on board. The only institution with derh it maseet(1-1/2 eent masjid) is Judiciary. I am just hoping that they should assist otherwise we would be likely back to "Reset".

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

I saw a nation that emerged out of thin air and had enough potential when supported was among the fastest growing economies. It was able to provide direct military,Technical support to Gulf nation as early as 60's

I saw a nation whose citizens after graduating from local Uni were able to make huge difference
Ashraf Abdullah,
Izhar Haider A close family friend who went onto develop what we know as Abu-dhabi today.

I saw a nation who went onto develop the capacities of other countries organisations and institutions which are now world class institutions such as one is Emirates airline.

I saw a nation which tried its best to bridge the gap between shia-Sunni world and has paid most for that rivalry. Yet it is still standing strong and would not shy away from raising a helping hand.

What I see now is:

a nation with lot more fire and potential, If led in right the direction can surely light up in no time.

Against all odds I see Edhi and Ansar Burney.

Against all odds I see my young generations striving for best music. Coke Studio< Nescafe basement, Pepsi Smash. etc

Against all odd I see my younger generations such as Humans of PAkistan

What i see is Edhi working against all odds, I see ansar burney doing the same.

I see my sons would like to contribute but cant due to host of other reason but that still doesn't stop them.

Now this is the part what I want to see but will not be able in my lifetime:

A change for better Pakistan, A positive contribution towards society and a world as whole.

to bridge the gap between Sunni and shia world.

To work for exemplary Islamic country as Mohammed Ali Jinnah envisioned.

When our ancestor did not give up against all odds , so how can we ?

I must say when i first started reading you post i used to get very agitated but as time passed I realized from the posts of @MastanKhan that criticism should always be taken as a positive feedback.

I have seen quite many posters such as @Oscar @syedali73 @Irfan Baloch who criticize Pakistan's stance where its due, but are equally patriot and would like to make positive contributions to it. like @Donatello @Horus @Akhelios @Aether

Buts its your post that I find more interesting and painful at the same time. It is unfortunately sad to see such intellect going towards only hatred and not making any positive contribution.

The only reason why i haven't gotten cross with your post is the fact that you don't call or consider yourself as American as @Viper0011.

But i haven't given hope on you as well, yet, and i look forward to the day where you will not only criticize but also make some positive contribution.

if criticising so much would have made any difference, then trust me the credit would have gone to Indians

If you really want to make a change, light up the fire and keep it burning (not that I don't like your criticism or anything)
But I believe you can do more by actually making a change in your perception

Pakistan zindabad

Hi,

I myself get agitated after I read my posts----even my family does not understand what I am going thru---they are the silent sufferers of my writings----going with my mood swings---not knowing what I am going thru.

After writing all this ---I go thru a lots of stress myself---sometimes I read the article and wonder who wrote it till I see my name on the top of it----and I am surprised at it myself----astounded at times---did I write that---how did I do that!

In order for me to succeed by myself---the stars would have to be lined up perfect---but it did not happen that way----. The other option was to have been recognized by others and they would have pushed me to a position to make me visible---like Hasan Nisar---that did not happen either---.

Aradeshir Cowasjee liked my articles that I emailed him---stated that they were editorial material---but when I asked him to introduce me to some of the editors of Pakistani news papers---he refused. I just asked for a little push---that he was not willing to give----.

Ask yourself---is it easy to be in my position and take a stand---when whole of the nation is fighting over who did the 9/11 and 9/11 is a conspiracy----and I am saying---who gives a fckuk who did 9/11----what are you going to do with the coming menace---.

I myself am nothing but a thin single branch of a tree----for me to have gained strength---I needed the support of other branches but none could look beyond their initial dislike---like on this forum----.

I took me a long time to acknowledge that for some people---it is their destiny to reach the peak---everywhere they step---things turn their way---for others it is a massive struggles and for many---the climb will be impossible.

So---for me to have succeeded---it should have also been in your destiny to succeed and in my country's destiny to succeed.

The sad and the tragic part is that my failure is not my own---.

Last night I was talking to my mother and she was telling me that doctors from Nishtar hospital are kicking out patients---because they want lesser load during ramazan---as they would be fasting---they would not be able to do their jobs---and she was torn apart inside out.

My mother is the widow of a doctor---she became a widow at age 37 and half or more of her married life---she did not see her husband because he was out taking care of patients---either it was the middle of the night ---late night or day time.

When her second son caught pneumonia at age 4 in 1963---she was visiting her parents----she could not get in touch with her doctor husband and her child passed away and she did not complain-----6 years later when a similar incident occurred with her 3rd son----she was away from her husband one more time---and there was no way to reach him in time to get back to the village----and she never complained----4 years after that when she lost her oldest daughter---tears would come but she never had hatred for the man who could have saved any one of them if he was there Allah willing.

For my father---it was pure commitment to the job and the cause---and he never complained and neither did he change his way for being in service to the poor and the weak. Those who could pay--God bless them and those who could not----he would buy the medication. Govt service paid for the benefits of housing etc.

My father was the doctor that you see in western movies----his medical bag packed ready to go any moment of the day and night and his six shooter packed on his side---ready to save humanity in distress and ready to shoot it out if need be.

As she is my mother----she suffers from the injustice that the doctors of this day and age put their patients thru---but she cannot do much----.

I can write about the suffering and issues of the Pakistanis but being alone and dying for the cause is not in my books. Things may happen and I may find myself involved----I cannot say much about that.

So---the bottom line---I am as miserable as you are with what I write about certain issues.


What is different between me and the others is----that if I criticize----I also present a solution for the problem----I don't criticize for the sake of criticism.

I take it as an Issue---the problem---the solution----so you cannot put or herd me together with those who criticize only but have no solutions.

 

[syedali73]

Hi,

I myself get agitated after I read my posts----even my family does not understand what I am going thru---they are the silent sufferers of my writings----going with my mood swings---not knowing what I am going thru.

After writing all this ---I go thru a lots of stress myself---sometimes I read the article and wonder who wrote it till I see my name on the top of it----and I am surprised at it myself----astounded at times---did I write that---how did I do that!

In order for me to succeed by myself---the stars would have to be lined up perfect---but it did not happen that way----. The other option was to have been recognized by others and they would have pushed me to a position to make me visible---like Hasan Nisar---that did not happen either---.

Aradeshir Cowasjee liked my articles that I emailed him---stated that they were editorial material---but when I asked him to introduce me to some of the editors of Pakistani news papers---he refused. I just asked for a little push---that he was not willing to give----.

Ask yourself---is it easy to be in my position and take a stand---when whole of the nation is fighting over who did the 9/11 and 9/11 is a conspiracy----and I am saying---who gives a fckuk who did 9/11----what are you going to do with the coming menace---.

I myself am nothing but a thin single branch of a tree----for me to have gained strength---I needed the support of other branches but none could look beyond their initial dislike---like on this forum----.

I took me a long time to acknowledge that for some people---it is their destiny to reach the peak---everywhere they step---things turn their way---for others it is a massive struggles and for many---the climb will be impossible.

So---for me to have succeeded---it should have also been in your destiny to succeed and in my country's destiny to succeed.

The sad and the tragic part is that my failure is not my own---.

Last night I was talking to my mother and she was telling me that doctors from Nishtar hospital are kicking out patients---because they want lesser load during ramazan---as they would be fasting---they would not be able to do their jobs---and she was torn apart inside out.

My mother is the widow of a doctor---she became a widow at age 37 and half or more of her married life---she did not see her husband because he was out taking care of patients---either it was the middle of the night ---late night or day time.

When her second son caught pneumonia at age 4 in 1963---she was visiting her parents----she could get in touch with her doctor husband and her child passed away and she did not complain-----6 years later when a similar incident occurred with her 3rd son----she was away from her husband one more time---and there was no way to reach him in time to get back to the village----and she never complained----4 years after that when she lost her oldest daughter---tears would come but she never had hatred for the man who could have saved any one of them if he was there Allah willing.

For my father---it was pure commitment to the job and the cause---and he never complained and neither did he change his way for being in service to the poor and the weak. Those who could pay--God bless them and those who could not----he would buy the medication. Govt service paid for the benefits of housing etc.

My father was the doctor that you see in western movies----his medical bag packed ready to go any moment of the day and night and his six shooter packed on his side---ready to save humanity in distress and ready to shoot it out if need be.

As she is my mother----she suffers from the injustice that the doctors of this day and age put their patients thru---but she cannot do much----.

I can write about the suffering and issues of the Pakistanis but being alone and dying for the cause is not in my books. Things may happen and I may find myself involved----I cannot say much about that.

So---the bottom line---I am as miserable as you are with what I write about certain issues.

Hats off in respect of your Mother. Pay my sincere regards to her when you get a chance.

 

[salarsikander]

Sir, your argument would hold weight if the Army also is not filled with "corrupt incompetent, unqualified and what not officials", since it is derived from the same nation that mans the other national institutions. And as long as we honestly admit that it is the Army that calls the shots, that is a clear admission of illegal usurpation of authority, no matter how fervent the justifications. There is no way around this, unfortunately.

Hi,

Then what should be done to run a country, when all of the national institutions are ta clash ?
should we wait for our doom like Libya or syria ?

If only these Institutions had qualified people who would put national interest before their interest, their would have been no need for men in uniform to leave their posts and come to run civic duty. is that what they are left for ?

I personally find it disgusting to see honourable men in uniform leaving their post and running civil admin, but if no one is there someone as disciplined as them. then who is there?
Its not like we have other choice. IK came up with new slogan as naya Pakistan, but you can see how miserably he has failed us all.

So you tell me what is more important basic security of state or upholding of paper which fails to provide you with your rights

Hi,

I myself get agitated after I read my posts----even my family does not understand what I am going thru---they are the silent sufferers of my writings----going with my mood swings---not knowing what I am going thru.

After writing all this ---I go thru a lots of stress myself---sometimes I read the article and wonder who wrote it till I see my name on the top of it----and I am surprised at it myself----astounded at times---did I write that---how did I do that!

In order for me to succeed by myself---the stars would have to be lined up perfect---but it did not happen that way----. The other option was to have been recognized by others and they would have pushed me to a position to make me visible---like Hasan Nisar---that did not happen either---.

Aradeshir Cowasjee liked my articles that I emailed him---stated that they were editorial material---but when I asked him to introduce me to some of the editors of Pakistani news papers---he refused. I just asked for a little push---that he was not willing to give----.

Ask yourself---is it easy to be in my position and take a stand---when whole of the nation is fighting over who did the 9/11 and 9/11 is a conspiracy----and I am saying---who gives a fckuk who did 9/11----what are you going to do with the coming menace---.

I myself am nothing but a thin single branch of a tree----for me to have gained strength---I needed the support of other branches but none could look beyond their initial dislike---like on this forum----.

I took me a long time to acknowledge that for some people---it is their destiny to reach the peak---everywhere they step---things turn their way---for others it is a massive struggles and for many---the climb will be impossible.

So---for me to have succeeded---it should have also been in your destiny to succeed and in my country's destiny to succeed.

The sad and the tragic part is that my failure is not my own---.

Last night I was talking to my mother and she was telling me that doctors from Nishtar hospital are kicking out patients---because they want lesser load during ramazan---as they would be fasting---they would not be able to do their jobs---and she was torn apart inside out.

My mother is the widow of a doctor---she became a widow at age 37 and half or more of her married life---she did not see her husband because he was out taking care of patients---either it was the middle of the night ---late night or day time.

When her second son caught pneumonia at age 4 in 1963---she was visiting her parents----she could not get in touch with her doctor husband and her child passed away and she did not complain-----6 years later when a similar incident occurred with her 3rd son----she was away from her husband one more time---and there was no way to reach him in time to get back to the village----and she never complained----4 years after that when she lost her oldest daughter---tears would come but she never had hatred for the man who could have saved any one of them if he was there Allah willing.

For my father---it was pure commitment to the job and the cause---and he never complained and neither did he change his way for being in service to the poor and the weak. Those who could pay--God bless them and those who could not----he would buy the medication. Govt service paid for the benefits of housing etc.

My father was the doctor that you see in western movies----his medical bag packed ready to go any moment of the day and night and his six shooter packed on his side---ready to save humanity in distress and ready to shoot it out if need be.

As she is my mother----she suffers from the injustice that the doctors of this day and age put their patients thru---but she cannot do much----.

I can write about the suffering and issues of the Pakistanis but being alone and dying for the cause is not in my books. Things may happen and I may find myself involved----I cannot say much about that.

So---the bottom line---I am as miserable as you are with what I write about certain issues.


What is different between me and the others is----that if I criticize----I also present a solution for the problem----I don't criticize for the sake of criticism.

I take it as an Issue---the problem---the solution----so you cannot put or herd me together with those who criticize only but have no solutions.

Janab Khanshib,

Youre are without doubt, one of the greatest poster for whom I have immense respect. I look forward to meet you someday InshAllah.

As always, your post is full of surprises and experiences which are beyond mine, and that's what makes you so much experienced. Your choice, even after suffering so much, you still choose not to turn your back on them, on us.

If it were to me I would have given you positive rating. But I belief i have not yet reached your level where I can.

Please, on behalf of all PDF and Pakistanis, I would request you to convey our sincere regards to your respected Walda.

I wish we had more courageous Women like your Walda.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Hi,

With all due respect my arguments is so that means we accept more of Peshawar kind of incidents?

There would have been no need to dispense justice by MC, if SC was doing its job right.

We wait a moment longer to fight over who has to dispense justice, they take 2-3 of our soldiers including some civies

You have not understood my reasoning yet friend. here answer these questions for yourself to arrive at my reasoning:

Is the army's role in place of civilian institutions sustainable?

Logical answer: No. It is not, and in the best case scenario, there is no bloodshed and no politicial instability, a nice friendly retreat and a nice clean entry into power by the civilians.

The scenario has been worse for Pakistan, when the army leaves like the end of Mursharraf's era, it's usually after years of struggle, political instability, huge morale loss for the army and worsening public image. And even the transition is never smooth, if the fleeing party don't flee the country, we usually have a tussle on our hands, and we were saved of that, but it's hardly proper. And then the civilians fight among themselves to get in through this system. The system we'll talk about next.

Now, the worst case scenario? Syria, Iraq, any world example with civil war + dictatorship.

Is army intervention good or bad for civilian authority and it's effectiveness?

Logical answer: It is incredibly damaging, you end up uprooting systems, destroying all forms organization, expertise, capability, authority, chain of command and effectiveness. And since we established that civilian rule is the inevitable outcome of all these games... it is then logical to say that the future is jeopardized, as we weaken the civilian institutions and then we need to fall back on them, we suffer because they cannot function well enough.

In turn, we get angry and restless, act against better judgement and back to square one, army in civilians out, civilian authority destroyed and uprooted once more. Hence we play musical chairs until God delivers us from our stupidity and gives us salvation in the day of judgement.

Where democracy has worked, what are the most basic and immediate factors that differ for Pakistan?

The most basic and easy to grasp answer here is the fact that Pakistan's democracy periods are all examples of democracy in it's infant state. Why do Pakistanis uproot a democracy every 5-10 years, kill the infant democracy and then ask it to perform miracles again after it's hurriedly brought back to life to deal with ever-mounting problems?

Rome was not built in a day, and western democracies took decades and centuries to achieve their level. We can't expect the same from an immature system.

The alternative to waiting and gradually improving is bringing the army back in and playing musical chairs again, hoping that it doesn't go too wrong.

Had all of this been done properly before, we'd be enjoying the fruits of democracy. Even if all of this I say you do not accept, you should at least accept Einstein's definition of insanity, and heed from it what wisdom and advise you may.

Please take a gander over to this thread too, before I am lynched, and tell me if I said anything wrong or objectionable:

The army's present authority...where does it come from?

I'll continue posting there, let us get lynched together.