Given a chance, Kashmiris would like to break away: CIA

[Marathaman]

Hey my grandparents almost stayed in India. Reason? Lots of property, life, business in UP which would either have to be left or sold at dirt cheap prices and of course the fact that crossing the border was almost equivalent to a death wish. Most Muslim didn't stay back in India out of love for the country, but they just couldn't leave.

Dude I think your thinking has to change. Love for your country also includes love for your vilage or town. I don't know about your family....muslims like any other people have deep feelings for their homes.
Don't insult them by saying that they stayed back because they couldn't afford to leave.

Don't think that just because Muslim celebrities of Bollywood are so enthusiastic the rest of them match favor India as well.

Er....I don't judge muslims by bollywood stars...then I would expect all muslims to wear bikinis too!!
I judge them by the muslims I know personally too....same as you or anyone else. They complain about the VHP and Bal Thackery (who doesn't), but they love India same as anyone else.

I'm not kidding myself, but you are. Having grown up in this multicultural city with diaspora so rich, I have a significant contact with the Indian Muslims. Till date they make more Hindu/Muslim distinction than the Pakistanis. How many times I'm shocked when they casually classify you all as the "Hindu people"...

So you are judging Indian muslims by the diaspora? Well I have the first hand experience buddy. Middle class and muslims in India are just as patriotic as any other Indians.

All these problems of riots and chauvinism arise in lower-middle class localities where the residents (Both hindus and muslims) are uneducated and take their religion a bit too seriously,
get misled by the local demagogue and hack each other to pieces occasionally.

I think Pakistanis have already taken the cake in making Hindu/Muslim distinction for a lifetime...

Some people from Gujarat are fanatical about their support to Pakistan! They talk about false urban legends: "Indian Army was sent to control the violence in Gujarat because Musharraf threatened Vajpayee to do so". They see Pakistan as their savior in a situation Pakistan couldn't have done anything even if it wanted to.

Gujarat I can understand. Well guess what the size of India is...think western europe. There are muslims in all states of India is almost all villages.

Actually, Gujarat is quite a special case. Hindu-muslims riots have been going on there for hundreds of years (recorded ones anyways).
Check out the history of riots in Gujarat for the full story. There is very little the republic of India has done to change that.....we can't brainwash them (wer're not China). So the hindus and muslims still harbour the old hatred for each other.
Politicians are more than willing to make use of this by facilitating riots and polarizing voters further.
Don't think of Modi as a Hindu religious figure. He's not. Hindu religious figures stay in temples and perform rituals..they don't give hate speeches. Modi was just an opportunist who took advantage of the social situation prevailing in Gujarat.

Of course most of these feelings are not their fault but the extremist Hindus of India. For example the police to whom the Muslims ran for protection and they told them to go ask help from Pakistan.

Don't just blame the Hindus. Muslims in India (the lower income ones) live pretty much the same way as 80 years ago...except for the tv sets.
Just because Hindus make up the majority doesn't make them evil. Muslims in Gujarat have historically isolated themselves from the rest of the population. The riots were not a result of the modern republic, just that the centuries old fractures were revealed for the world to see.

I'm not saying that it's a good thing for Pakistan that Indian Muslims think like this. We don't want any of them, although we do sympathize and hope the situation turns in India. We do however align ourselves with the Kashmiris who are not Indians.

Kashmiris are Indians who never got a fair chance to lead a normal life, thanks to the terrorism.

There is also another facet to the story...the fleeing of Kashmiri hindus. What happened in Gujarat was just religious anger spilling onto the streets.

But in Kashmir...something deeper was going on...Hindus were forced to flee their homes and never return. Many were tortured and killed systematically....thats why I don't consider kashmiris to be the peace loving people that they are made out to be. Kashmiri hindus are ethnically the same as kashmiri muslims. Nehru himself was a kashmiri brahmin.

They will integrate in time, depending on how the terrorism scenario and Indian political scene plays out. They just need a bit of brainwashing...one generation of brainwashing and they will be as Indian as any one else.

 

[Contrarian]

They won't side with India either! I definately would'nt! I am siding with Pakistan... now you will come and cry that I am only half Indian so I say this... but my Indian cousins feel the same way. They think of Pakistan as an escape from Indian oppression and discrimination!

I dont give a damn what you and your family might think. Spare me the im half indian yet im Pakistani, so muslims in India hate India routine.

People like You are the reason why many hindu's look at muslims with suspicion. People like you are the reason why muslims get a bad name. People like you are the reason why muslims feel the need to prove their loyalty to India.

I know there are some loyal muslim Indians too like Salim dude here but there are too few! Muslims always are the ones who have been vouching to avoid a conflict when Hindus have been shouting for war. Well most of the muslims will not happily support India in case of a war. Maybe you forgot the muslim protests against the 1971 war and support for the Bahinis.

And maybe you forgot the popular muslim sentiment of going to war against Pakistan during Kargil. Maybe you forgot that muslims actually attacked PA in the Kargil conflict. Maybe you are forgetting many more things.

 

[haviZsultan]

Dude, in India a Muslim name doesn't always mean a Muslim person.

Again it's not about loyalty to India or favoring Pakistan. It's about winning their hearts and showing dissent over the treatment they have received.

Perhaps Kashif can enlighten us more on this, he openly has shown dissent against some of India's policies, but I'm sure when it comes down to it, he'd identify himself as an Indian as he should.

Coming back to my original point, with such deep dissent in all of Indian Muslims in 60 years, what sort of a lap dance can the Indians offer the Kashmiris (who are on a warpath against India, not just dissent)?

So you're trying to tell me Salim is not muslim? Or are you implying that my muslim freinds and cousins from India just lie that they are muslims!

Dude, are'nt we trying to say the same thing? Or do you simply want to deny what I say for personal satisfaction? Are you enjoying this great right you have? I said if the treatment of muslims is bad as it is and if the police continues favouring Hindus and muslims continue suffering the biases and discrimination they do then they would feel discontent and unhappy and would not be as loyal as other religious grops are as they are not accepted in India!

Well do you expect them to identify themselves as Canadians? Did I say they identify themselves as Congolese, Ghanans or Sudanis? I was just talking about how some muslims in India and some of my family members in India are so discontent that they see Pakistan as an escape from the oppression and discrimination! I said in the "case of a WAR" they would be unwilling to let their nation join in which is proven by the muslim protests against 1971 war and against support for Bahinis! If India is the aggressor the muslims of India have always been the first to raise their voices against the government!

I'm not saying that it's a good thing for Pakistan that Indian Muslims think like this. We don't want any of them, although we do sympathize and hope the situation turns in India. We do however align ourselves with the Kashmiris who are not Indians.

It is good for Pakistan and many Indian muslims too think of it as a good thing! I know many people who shifted from Kashmir and even other parts of India and they end up being extremely loyal to Pakistan as Pakistan was the same nation that ended their oppression and gave them a place to call home! These people are almost never corrupt and are willing to give their lives for their new nation!

Just talk to some of them and you'll know of the pride some of them feel for being Pakistanis! These are the people unwilling to even move out of their Nation just because they feel they are betraying it and believe in spending their last breathe making it better in Pakistan. Ask them how many aid operations they are involved in and how they are always aligned with the Nationalist organizations such as the Pak Nationalists and Patriots! I have also been to India and felt and seen the discrimination and bias with my own eyes and my family tells me about the hatred felt by Indian Hindus for us. I understand why these people are so grateful to Pakistan and think they owe an eternal debt to Pakistan... Still you say we don't want these people? And even I am supposed to be Indian as my father is Indian! Now are you going to say that you don't wan't me either and betray what expectations and hopes I have held for Pakistan?

We don't want any? Thats the attitude I despise! That is exactly the same attitude Indians show to muslims which makes them discontent... the "we don't want you here!" What difference is there between you and them now? I must admit though you do have Indian characteristics! Now tommarow you might come and blame me for your misfortunes or say that I am a member of the "ISI"

Pakistan was created as a safe-haven for muslims! Did you forget that even your forefathers once shifted from India to avoid Hindu aggression and discrimination! Now why deny that right to those who are discontented in India today! We must allow those who want to to come to Pakistan to come! And did you forget Jinnahs words and vision? Jinnah said any muslim who wants to come to Pakistan and live as a Pakistani is free to do so and the government would pledge its complete support to such people! So who are you against? Me or Pakistan?

My cousin shifted to Pakistan from Lucknow to Karachi recently and got his family settled! He now has a Pakistani passport but he is lucky he has'nt met people like you! How impressed would he be with your words and how you did not want him here...

Man, as far as I see it people who believe that Pakistan is a safe-haven for them should not be let down!!! These people are escaping oppression just as we were in 1947! We must ensure that they are not let down!

 

[haviZsultan]

I dont give a damn what you and your family might think. Spare me the im half indian yet im Pakistani, so muslims in India hate India routine.

Well that is exactly the reason why they feel discontent and insecure! They never know when people like you will enter their house at night and slay them while they sleep! I did'nt say hate! I said most of them are not as loyal to India as you people are because they are not treated well by you people!!! They haven't felt that they have been accepted by India so they feel this way!

Well, cry all you want! I must admit I feel sorry for you though!

People like You are the reason why many hindu's look at muslims with suspicion. People like you are the reason why muslims get a bad name. People like you are the reason why muslims feel the need to prove their loyalty to India.

Awwww... don't worry! Don't be frustrated! Everything will be back to normal again! I am the reason! That is so nice to know! Why did'nt you inform me before? Actually its true but what will you do to change it?

Well my family keeps me informed about what they feel! They told me this themselves! You think I could say all this without them feeling this way... my grandfather said that if they had shifted to Pakistan their condition would have been much better than it is now!

And maybe you forgot the popular muslim sentiment of going to war against Pakistan during Kargil. Maybe you forgot that muslims actually attacked PA in the Kargil conflict. Maybe you are forgetting many more things.

I never heard about that? So they wanted to go to war with Pakistan during Kargil? Well my family says otherwise... they say that they protested against all the wars and have always wanted only peace between the two nations! Inventing stuff again... Indian inventions strike again!

 

[Always Neutral]

I asked what was Kashmir which is so hotly being debated here. I did not get one realistic answer except that UK was smaller than Kashmir and another advising to continue smoking pot. So I will be more precise and my questions are addressed to members of both countries

1. Kashmir has been split into 3 parts, one occupied by India, one occupied by Pakistan and the third by China (handed over by Pakistan). Dimension says the land given to Chinese was sparesly populated and so nothing was lost. Excuse me since when did Pakistan have the right to donate Kashmiri land to China if Kashmir issue is not resolved ?

2. Why are not the democratic minded people in this forum here condemning the the above and telling China to get lost alongwith India ?

3. China, India and Pakistan have settled people in these areas. Kashmiri Pandits have been driven out of Kashmir and a lot of indegenous tribes of the NA have been relocated since 1947. So will a plebicite actually reflect what IOK, *** and COK want?

4. Who is going to give up the control of the rivers flowing through there ?

5. Kashmir will be better than Switzerland for tourism ? I doubt please go to Switzerland and see the way they treat their enviornment. There is zero corruption there thats why the enviornment preserves itself. Go to DAL lake in Srinagar and see the ***** and illegal colonies polluting the lake. Its not the Indian Govt to blame but the local people and the local Kashmiri people who are doing it through nepotism and corruption ?

I think the General and the Indian PM are wise people and they know in the 20th century and given the complexities of Kashmiris, Jammuites, Kargilis, Ladhakis, Gujjars, Balwaris, Gilgitis, Pandits people etc and their severe dislike for each other boundaries cannot be redrawn. If you hold a plebicite now you will end up with 20 Republics of Balwaristan, Jammustan, Gilgitstan etc So they have agreed to convert the LOC into a soft boundary benefiting the devided people and thats the best solution. Nor are Pakistanis or Indians strong enough to tell China to get lost from Kashmiri lands.

Best Regards

 

[Always Neutral]

I don't know how it happened in my above post

*** = ***

 

[Always Neutral]

Everytime I write Pakistan Occupied Kashmir I get *** instead

 

[Always Neutral]

and for the word (*****) i got *****

 

[HK-47]

So you're trying to tell me Salim is not muslim?

He isn't,it's his pet name,he's originally from Barisal,BD hehe.illegal immigrant?

Everytime I write Pakistan Occupied Kashmir I get *** instead

use the word administered.sounds more nice I guess.

 

[Always Neutral]

He isn't,it's his pet name,he's originally from Barisal,BD hehe.illegal immigrant?

use the word administered.sounds more nice I guess.

But it does not happen when I use IOK or COK ?

 

[Awesome]

But it does not happen when I use IOK or COK ?

It was banned by a couple of trouble maker's insistence to use *** where as the official name is Azad Kashmir and we don't encourage IOK either as it's official name is Jammu and Kashmir. The PDF Admin team took the middle line, but unfortunately some people were hell bent on sticking to the extremes...

 

[Awesome]

So you're trying to tell me Salim is not muslim? Or are you implying that my muslim freinds and cousins from India just lie that they are muslims!

Dude, are'nt we trying to say the same thing? Or do you simply want to deny what I say for personal satisfaction? Are you enjoying this great right you have? I said if the treatment of muslims is bad as it is and if the police continues favouring Hindus and muslims continue suffering the biases and discrimination they do then they would feel discontent and unhappy and would not be as loyal as other religious grops are as they are not accepted in India!

Well do you expect them to identify themselves as Canadians? Did I say they identify themselves as Congolese, Ghanans or Sudanis? I was just talking about how some muslims in India and some of my family members in India are so discontent that they see Pakistan as an escape from the oppression and discrimination! I said in the "case of a WAR" they would be unwilling to let their nation join in which is proven by the muslim protests against 1971 war and against support for Bahinis! If India is the aggressor the muslims of India have always been the first to raise their voices against the government!

Calm down man, I WAS claiming that Salim's not a Muslim! I initially didn't want to say it because he might not like me talking on his behalf. That's it, easy with the big "bhashans".

It is good for Pakistan and many Indian muslims too think of it as a good thing! I know many people who shifted from Kashmir and even other parts of India and they end up being extremely loyal to Pakistan as Pakistan was the same nation that ended their oppression and gave them a place to call home! These people are almost never corrupt and are willing to give their lives for their new nation!

I know it's bad for India, but that doesn't necessarily mean its good for Pakistan or the Indian Muslims. It just doesn't matter to Pakistan, and keeps the Indian Muslims from forming good bonds with their fellow citizens. Of course I do maintain that the bulk of the fault lies with the tyranny imposed by the Hindu extremists of India.

We don't want any? Thats the attitude I despise! That is exactly the same attitude Indians show to muslims which makes them discontent... the "we don't want you here!" What difference is there between you and them now? I must admit though you do have Indian characteristics! Now tommarow you might come and blame me for your misfortunes or say that I am a member of the "ISI"

I like the Buddhists monks too but I don't want any of them. I like Malaysians and won't want them either. Pakistan's economy cannot afford it.

Pakistan was created as a safe-haven for muslims! Did you forget that even your forefathers once shifted from India to avoid Hindu aggression and discrimination! Now why deny that right to those who are discontented in India today! We must allow those who want to to come to Pakistan to come!

Pakistan was created as a safe-haven for India's minorities not just Muslims. My forefathers didn't shift from India, but it was as recent as my father. Even still I won't support this ridiculous notion that we should open nationality for all Indian Muslims. It's risky, its dangerous, its a burden on our economy.

And did you forget Jinnahs words and vision? Jinnah said any muslim who wants to come to Pakistan and live as a Pakistani is free to do so and the government would pledge its complete support to such people! So who are you against? Me or Pakistan?

Again, Jinnah said in Pakistan you are free to go to you mosques, temples and your religion has nothing to do with the business of the state. Of course we should allow the good Indian Muslims a chance to become Pakistani as well but it should be through the current NORMAL naturalization process that exists in Pakistan today.

My cousin shifted to Pakistan from Lucknow to Karachi recently and got his family settled! He now has a Pakistani passport but he is lucky he has'nt met people like you! How impressed would he be with your words and how you did not want him here...

As I said before... PIPE DOWN.

I'd be happy that he became Pakistani if he did so through all legal means and went through the complete naturalization process. Pakistan officially removed the provision that allows people to come from India and claim nationality in 1954. We gave everyone enough of a chance to come don't you think? Now they have to follow a bigger process and that's the legal way. Anyone who becomes a Pakistani in a legal way is okay by me.

Even Afghanis come to Pakistan and have gotten Pakistani passports. I don't consider them Pakistanis because they cheated the Pakistani government and the taxpayers would have to bear the brunt for their expenses.

Man, as far as I see it people who believe that Pakistan is a safe-haven for them should not be let down!!! These people are escaping oppression just as we were in 1947! We must ensure that they are not let down!

Yes that's a different story all together. But we aren't an America type economy to be able to grant Asylums to 150 million people. But keep the process open so the select few can work hard and come here.

 

[Awesome]

I asked what was Kashmir which is so hotly being debated here. I did not get one realistic answer except that UK was smaller than Kashmir and another advising to continue smoking pot. So I will be more precise and my questions are addressed to members of both countries

What sort of question is "What was Kashmir?" Sounds incomplete. Probably no one understood it!

1. Kashmir has been split into 3 parts, one occupied by India, one occupied by Pakistan and the third by China (handed over by Pakistan). Dimension says the land given to Chinese was sparesly populated and so nothing was lost. Excuse me since when did Pakistan have the right to donate Kashmiri land to China if Kashmir issue is not resolved ?

Chinese have a claim on the land. You can take it from China, if you like. But if you notice neither Pakistan nor the Kashmiri separatists have actually pushed for that ice desert. It's only INDIA which uses a big piece of ICE as an excuse.

2. Why are not the democratic minded people in this forum here condemning the the above and telling China to get lost alongwith India ?

Where is the "demo" of democracy when there are no people there?

3. China, India and Pakistan have settled people in these areas. Kashmiri Pandits have been driven out of Kashmir and a lot of indegenous tribes of the NA have been relocated since 1947. So will a plebicite actually reflect what IOK, *** and COK want?

The Kashmiri Pandits left under India's watch. India should have done a better job to keep them settled in... 60 years is an awfully long time for large scale migration for people. The Kashmiris of Azad Kashmir are well content with the way they are treated in Pakistan. No separatist movements, no violence, no bombings. In fact the biggest Kashmiri complaint I've seen with Pakistan is that their cars have Azad Kashmir number plates which causes them to produce ID at ever provinces' check points. ( which is a big complaint considering they have to deal with our wretched police).

4. Who is going to give up the control of the rivers flowing through there ?

Rightfully, Kashmiri rivers belong to Kashmir. I don't know I feel pretty confident giving up control of rivers to Kashmiris who we have treated quite well. Only people with skeletons in their closet would be a little shaky about the thought.

5. Kashmir will be better than Switzerland for tourism ? I doubt please go to Switzerland and see the way they treat their enviornment. There is zero corruption there thats why the enviornment preserves itself. Go to DAL lake in Srinagar and see the ***** and illegal colonies polluting the lake. Its not the Indian Govt to blame but the local people and the local Kashmiri people who are doing it through nepotism and corruption ?

You are comparing a war zone with a 1st world country. "Give peace a chance".

I think the General and the Indian PM are wise people and they know in the 20th century and given the complexities of Kashmiris, Jammuites, Kargilis, Ladhakis, Gujjars, Balwaris, Gilgitis, Pandits people etc and their severe dislike for each other boundaries cannot be redrawn. If you hold a plebicite now you will end up with 20 Republics of Balwaristan, Jammustan, Gilgitstan etc So they have agreed to convert the LOC into a soft boundary benefiting the devided people and thats the best solution. Nor are Pakistanis or Indians strong enough to tell China to get lost from Kashmiri lands.

That's false, at the most you'd have 2 divisions that too if India twists the rules of the plebiscite. According to the UN resolution whoever's count is the highest all of Kashmir would go there. No divisions. Our claim has been neither in agreement nor disagreement to that. If Kashmiris agree to such a Hindu/Muslim division then go ahead.

Do remember Kashmiri separatists aren't Islamic oriented as most crummy articles falsely point them out as Islamic militants. For the most part they've been quite a bit of secularists.

If Kashmiris agree however, you can divide it along as Jammu goes to India and Kashmir goes to Pakistan or one of them goes free or both of them go free or both of them unite and go free or join one country.

Let the people choose.

 

[Always Neutral]

Okay this is your view and if I ask an Indian his view will diametrically opposite. I have been to Indian side Kashmir so my views are one sided. Only in the Srinagar valley I found people anti India but even they have utopian dreams of independence from India as well as Pakistan if possible. I am sorry the indian pakistani people are very emotional people and never question your leaders or hold them accountable. I agree Kashmir should have been given a plebicite 40 years ago but the time has now passed. Even a warrior like the General realises the same. Most of the people in this forum approve what the General does so why not trust him when he says boundaries cannot be re-drawn in todays world ?

 

[Awesome]

Okay this is your view and if I ask an Indian his view will diametrically opposite. I have been to Indian side Kashmir so my views are one sided. Only in the Srinagar valley I found people anti India but even they have utopian dreams of independence from India as well as Pakistan if possible. I am sorry the indian pakistani people are very emotional people and never question your leaders or hold them accountable. I agree Kashmir should have been given a plebicite 40 years ago but the time has now passed. Even a warrior like the General realises the same. Most of the people in this forum approve what the General does so why not trust him when he says boundaries cannot be re-drawn in todays world ?

I say it again and again. It's about Kashmirs. Kashmiris, Kashmiris, Kashmiris.

From the Pakistan perspective a Kashmir/Jammu divide is good enough. Jammu people don't seem like pro-Pakistan, so why get them by force? But to Kashmiris, it would be seen as a division. However if THEY agree, thinking that Jammu is technically separate from Kashmir with different sort of people there, then that's ok.

The decision should be Kashmiri or else whatever India/Pakistan decide Kashmiris would still never agree. Ok forget a plebiscite, include the separatists into these discussion. Parties like JKLF and APHC are true representatives of the Kashmiris. They are the ones who declare strikes against India and they are observed. They are the ones that celebrate Indian independence day as a black day and its observed. Now India would keep stating in denial that the true reps are those that have contested in their elections. Separatists haven't contested in elections since that would be acknowledging that they are part of the Indian government.

President Musharraf's main claim on moving from stated positions is simply one of two options. 1. Kashmir doesn't HAVE to be a part of Pakistan. 2. Kashmir can be divided, if accepted by the Kashmiris.

1. Kashmir can (and probably should to help soothe Indian egos) become independent and it would be acceptable to most Pakistanis. It's morally the best thing to do, we end up helping the Kashmiris and then letting them conduct their affairs on their own. Such a Kashmir would obviously be friendly to us and hence the strategic benefit as well. We won't face a similar threat from such a Kashmir as how India keeps threatening to block our water supply.

2. IF and Only IF the Kashmiris agree to it, Jammu can go India's way and Kashmir can either become independent or join with Pakistan.