Germany offers India deal for next generation submarines

[randaam janmam]

German weapons come with a lot of strings attached..primarily why Pakistan withdrew from buying German subs earlier and went to buy Chinese.

Whom are you kidding? Pakistan buys Chinese, because that's all that Pakistan can afford. Unlike USA, Germany doesn't give weapons to Pakistan on bakshish.

India or Pakistan, or any nation in world, I am against nuclear powered submarines... Why do the CLIMATE CHANGE and ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION CHAMPIONS always forget how critical could it be??

Nuclear power doesn't release climate changing CO2. Diesel does. That's why "environment champions" would prefer nuclear power to fossil fuels.

 

[PakGuns]

Whom are you kidding? Pakistan buys Chinese, because that's all that Pakistan can afford. Unlike USA, Germany doesn't give weapons to Pakistan on bakshish.



Nuclear power doesn't release climate changing CO2. Diesel does. That's why "environment champions" would prefer nuclear power to fossil fuels.

But there was some nuclear related disaster in Indian submarine..? How'd it go?? Are radiations already under control??? I'm against it because of accidents related to nuclear reactors, it is like you have package and a nuclear reactor will paybackat at once, while fossil feul will payback in installments daily basis...

 

[randaam janmam]

But there was some nuclear related disaster in Indian submarine..? How'd it go?? Are radiations already under control??? I'm against it because of accidents related to nuclear reactors, it is like you have package and a nuclear reactor will paybackat at once, while fossil feul will payback in installments daily basis...

There wasn't any nuclear disaster in any Indian submarine.

 

[MKC]

But there was some nuclear related disaster in Indian submarine..? How'd it go?? Are radiations already under control??? I'm against it because of accidents related to nuclear reactors, it is like you have package and a nuclear reactor will paybackat at once, while fossil feul will payback in installments daily basis...

Till now there is no disaster, I hope there will not be any disaster in future too.
Nuclear submarines have radiation under control.

Do you know the ocean provides infinite reactor cooling (ie no meltdowns) and near-infinite dilution of any escaping radioactive material. If you can't decommission it properly, sitting at the bottom of a trench is actually a very good place for nuclear material to end up.

There is a good answer of question by Ryan Carlyle
What happens to the reactor if a nuclear submarine is destroyed by a torpedo/mine?
The reactor sinks with the sub, and that's pretty much the end of it.

There are currently 8 sunken nuclear submarines around the world. They all contain a nuclear reactor in various states of damage or decay. Here's a list:
List of sunken nuclear submarines

Recovering a damaged reactor is much more dangerous than simply leaving it in place. This is obviously not the preferred way to deal with submarine reactor cores, but it's surprisingly benign. The ocean provides infinite reactor cooling (ie no meltdowns) and near-infinite dilution of any escaping radioactive material. If you can't decommission it properly, sitting at the bottom of a trench is actually a very good place for nuclear material to end up.

This issue has been studied extensively by radiation experts because of those 8 sunken nuclear submarines. That's why we know leaving the sub in place is preferable to retrieving it. Even a leaking reactor secretly scuttled by the Soviet Union in 1982 (in only 33 meters of water!) in the Kara Sea has caused no environmental damage in three decades. Several other nations and the UN have recently inspected the site and determined that the radioactive material release is insignificant and not worth attempting to clean up.

The oceans already contain billions of tons of dissolved natural radioactive material. A few tons more does absolutely nothing once it's diluted over a large volume of water. The only real concern is the immediate vicinity (<100 ft) of a severe leak, where radioisotopes can accumulate somewhat in the marine soil. Animal life inhabiting that soil could be affected. But over time this contaminated zone is safely buried by the "pelagic rain" of sediments that gradually accumulates on the ocean floor. And the reactor itself will gradually cool and lose its radioactivity due to normal nuclear decay. In the time it takes for the reactor's structural elements and core shielding to corrode away in the anoxic seafloor environment, the hazard posed by the core material decreases to a minimal level.

Perhaps if a submarine sank in the middle of a coral reef or near a popular beach, we might attempt to recover it for proper disposal. If nothing else, it would be a PR issue for the Navy. Otherwise, the risk profile to retrieve a damaged reactor just isn't worth attempting.

 

[somebozo]

There have been recent surge in relations which do favour Germany. They have been good at the deal for Towed arrays , giving TOT and production rights , further offering their Heavy weight torpedoes for our submarines . All this in last couple of years.

The concept of competition will be about who fulfills the basic minimum criteria of Navy in lowest price , as usual. And this means its virtually a TKMS/HDW vs Russia.

And extracting Type212 has been a difficult task even for SK and Turkey , both wanted that bit ended up with an export variant.

But the recent sale of 2 type 218 to Singapore which is basically a next generation Type 212 does says that Germans are more open now for selling of such systems.

This is just a mind fart of indian thinking..As long as 212 is not offered..214 is always the scaled down reduced technology version....infact so reduced that the Turks opted to buy the hulls from Germans and integrate 80% of their own systems in the Sub..creating the U214TU version.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

This is just a minat of indian thinking..As long as 212 is not offered..214 is always the scaled down reduced technology version....infact so reduced that the Turks opted to buy the hulls from Germans and integrate 80% of their own systems in the Sub..creating the U214TU version.

When the Type 218SG sale was done with Singapore , it was said that its a, customised version of the bigger Type 216 version of concept which was especially made with keeping in mind the need of navies of Australia and India.

And its not Type 212 which is sought , a bigger submarine with VLS system.

 

[Tiger Genie]

German weapons come with a lot of strings attached..primarily why Pakistan withdrew from buying German subs earlier and went to buy Chinese.

The Pakistan Navy negotiated for the purchase of three Type 214 submarines to be built in Pakistan in 2008. During the IDEAS 2008 exhibition, the HDW chief Walter Freitag told “The commercial contract has been finalised up to 95 per cent,” he said. The first submarine would be delivered to the Pakistan Navy in 64 months after signing of the contract while the rest would be completed successively in 12 months.[5][6] After wavering for over two years Pakistan dropped the deal in favor of a new negotiation with China Shipbuilding & Offshore International Co. Ltd. for a set of submarines that have yet to be designed.[7]

German are withholding the stealth technology of non-magnetic hull used in type 212.

those are strings ....

 

[arp2041]

Today i saw old lady around her 70s was collecting remains of wheat plants from fields after harvesting in around 1 pm it was afternoon full sun .........dam i felt very sad for her then i thought about these massive defence equipment purchases.........yeah these are necessary bt we srsly need to think about that...... what benfit these things will bring to our poor.....

I don't know about BENEFIT but surely it will atleast keep away the SLAVERY of 1000 years when there was nothing called INDIA or if it was, it was so weak that few thousands of Britishers enslaved about 30 crores of them.

 

[Manindra]

This is just a mind fart of indian thinking..As long as 212 is not offered..214 is always the scaled down reduced technology version....infact so reduced that the Turks opted to buy the hulls from Germans and integrate 80% of their own systems in the Sub..creating the U214TU version.

So, you are assuming Type 212 is superior than Type 214 ?
Some feature is great in Type 212 but its so called 'Non magnetic hull' or Soft Steel makes it shallow water sub & other hand Type 214 is ocean going sub.

 

[somebozo]

So, you are assuming Type 212 is superior than Type 214 ?
Some feature is great in Type 212 but its so called 'Non magnetic hull' or Soft Steel makes it shallow water sub & other hand Type 214 is ocean going sub.

Go check up the facts...It is possible to have a strong hull and still make it non-magnetic..it is done with advance materials.

 

[Manindra]

Go check up the facts...It is possible to have a strong hull and still make it non-magnetic..it is done with advance materials.

But Type 212 is not ocean going Sub but shallow water. Soryu class of Japan is but its hell of expensive.

 

[Freyja]

So, you are assuming Type 212 is superior than Type 214 ?

Type 214 is a downgraded export version of Type 212, so yes, it's superior to Type 214.

Type 214 is physically larger then Type 212, so it's range is going to be greater as it can carry more supplies for longer duration missions.

Type 214

There are some other design element changes beyond enlargement.

Type 212

Type 212s are ocean going and Italian vessels have made trips to the Continental United States for drills:

In April 2006, German Navy U-32 sailed from the Baltic to Rota, Spain in a journey lasting two weeks, covering 1,500 nautical miles (2,800 km; 1,700 mi) without surfacing or snorkelling.

Italian Navy's S526 Todaro was deployed, for over six months in 2008, to U.S.A. for CONUS 2008 exercise with United States Navy.

Italian Navy's S527 Scirè was deployed, for over five months in 2009, to U.S.A. for CONUS 2009 exercise with United States Navy.

Italian Navy's S526 Todaro, between September 1, 2012 and February 13, 2013, for the first time was deployed to Aden Gulf, Arabic Sea, Oman Gulf and Indian Ocean.

In 2013, while on the way to participate in naval exercises in United States waters, German Navy U-32 established a new record for non-nuclear submarines with 18 days in submerged transit without snorkeling

Operationally, they are for coastal defense as SSCs - littoral attack submarines - but like our Ula Class

They can traverse ocean waters.

 

[21 Dec 2012]

I'll just leave this here and be on my way.

network54 WAFF member, he is a german btw.

This is kind of a classic issue, and there is a lot of confusion about it.

It is necessary to understand project legacy and concept origins to understand the differences between both ships, and the first thing we must clear about the question is:

None of the ships is overly superior to the other.

U-212 and U-214 are answers to different problems, and therefore they are different.
U-212 is the result of a german requirement for a submarine with a non magnetic hull. This requirement has to do with the average depth of the Baltic Sea (56m). In those circumstances, the most important defence method of a submarine is just to go to the bottom and try to disappear in the sonar. Hence, the need for a non-magnetic steel hull.
Unfortunatelly, non-magnetic steel is also known in the industry as «sweet.steel.» Meaning that it is «softer» than the steel used in the U-214. Thats why a U-214 can go deeper than a U-212, although in the shallow water of the Baltic the U-212 would go un-notices while the U-214 would probably be caught by sonar.

Actually the family legacy of U-212 is not U-209, but the Thyssen project from the 1970s that resulted in the TR-1700 submarine from Argentina. The fastest Diesel-electric submarine in the world. The same basic layout with two decks is also found in the Dolphin class from Israel, although without non-magnetic steel nor AIP.

U-214s legacy is the U-209, although much changed. It is narrower and longer that U-212. It was not thought for the Baltic, but for open deep sea operation. Therefore U-214 will have no bottom of the sea limit, other than the limit imposed by the resistance of its stronger hull.

Both U-214 and U-212 can operate in shallow waters or deep waters, but U-212 has the edge on shallow water, while U-214 has the edge on deep water.

The systems can be changed and installed on either vessels, depending on the requirement of the users.
U-212 has older systems than the U-214 (which is just natural as the projects are almost 10 years apart).

Note that U-212 was never offered as an option to a navy. When it was offered to the Italian navy, there was no U-214 yet.

U-212 uses an imported combat system partially made in Norway by Kongsberg, known as MSI-90, while U-214s combat system is made in germany.by Atlas-Elektronik, being the latest version of the ISUS-90 system.

There are many differences in combat systems, but one of the most important results in U-212 being only able to fire torpedoes, while U-214 can fire both torpedoes and submarine launched sub harpoon missiles. This will change in future versions of U-212 though.

The consolidation of german naval industry ended with the competition between both models in the 1990s.

One cant just say which of them is better. The U-212 was an absolute german need for the Baltic conditions. Italy wanted an AIP submarine, and there wasnt really any real choice at the time. When a navy makes an option for a model, the most logical option is to stick to it, and thus Italy is going to get an additional two U-212.

For a navy that is going to protect shallow waters, there is no doubt about the clear superiority of U-212. In deep sea operations away from the shores, U-214 will fare better.