Geographical representation of Cold Start Doctrine

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

You are indeed hilarious.
MiG-29UPGs and MiG-29K are far more advanced and capable than JF-17.

Also we have 4th gen Mirage 2000-5 MK2 whereas you have obsolete 60s era Mirages.


Indian T-90 have got far more Indian content than Pakistani Al Khalid (MBT 2000) has got Pakistani content.

We upgraded over 1000 T-72 whereas you managed to upgrade a mere 500 to Al zarrar.

all of those T 90 tanks are all 100 percent imported kits assembled in India.

our mirages have been upgraded to latest version under rose program.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

Size of our Brahmos inventory out numbers size of Pakistan's Bahbur inventory 2:1.

we don't have Babur only.
and size doesn't matter. we have produced Babur decade ago and we got more of them in numbers,while you still have to deploy your brahamos completely.
and our nasr is also a mini cruise missile which can change it path directory.

how many Babur Pakistan have?

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

how many Babur Pakistan have?

not made public but since its in serial production from 12 years, they are in very large number.

such weapons are always produces in large numbers.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

not made public but since its in serial production from 12 years, they are in very large number.

such weapons are always produces in large numbers.

what do you think do we have more than 500 CM or less?

 

[Areesh]

Man, you are bored. I was here interacting with people I like interacting with, having decided to not enjoy the shock and awe of intellect here. And you tagged me here.

What interested you?

Let us examine the contentions:

Kashmir and Runn of Kutch region are pretty much secure from any CSD based invasion. In Punjab plains, Pakistan has capability to deal, repel and even answer any CSD based invasion. Only vulnerable spot, i.e the Thar Desert region is 'protected' by deterrence cast by Pakistan's development of NASR Tactical Nuclear Weapon utilizing doctrinal posture of Full Spectrum Minimum Deterrence.



If you notice in the first line itself, you can see how flawed the premise here is, and what level of understanding of the Doctrine is available. The OP clearly assumes something.
As for the last sentence, you will find the interesting premise of Nasr as always and that too already mated with warheads

Need I even go on?



Yes and certainly no. The aim is to allow flexibility to the political class before the International Pressure kicks in. So I would not agree with this contention.

And Certainly No comes with the fact that the Cold Start is based on Pivot Corps initiating and achieving breakthroughs at certain points (while multiple points will be struck, it is assumed that only few will succeed in a breach), while the strike corps elements will exploit the same for deeper thrust beyond a node.




There is no Holding Corps concept anymore. And there is no if war escalates.


I would suggest going back to the dedicated thread. The OP has been there.


@randomradio

This was interesting ... I am yet to know this


Was this why you tagged me here?

The joker who you are talking to says even hundred nukes can do no harm to India.

Any words for that? Or you think India not attacking Kuch is more laughable idea.

 

[Smriti95]

all of those T 90 tanks are all 100 percent imported kits assembled in India.

our mirages have been upgraded to latest version under rose program.

Recent HIT Taxila documentary showed that Al Khalid has only 30-40% Pakistani content.
@Water Car Engineer

That still does not make your mirages 4th gen even we have upgraded Jags to Darin II and MiG-27 to Upg.

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

Recent HIT Taxila documentary showed that Al Khalid has only 30-40% Pakistani content.
@Water Car Engineer

That still does not make your mirages 4th gen even we have upgraded Jags to Darin II and MiG-27 to Upg.

all of our planes are upgraded for certain purposes and moreover by 2020 all of air force will be 4th or above generation air force.
while you wait for your tejas to fly.

what do you think do we have more than 500 CM or less?

depend upon number of targets. it is a terrain matching missile so you can guess that we will have to produce them long before war. or we can have all the collected data which can be installed at any given time on the missile.

Recent HIT Taxila documentary showed that Al Khalid has only 30-40% Pakistani content.
@Water Car Engineer

That still does not make your mirages 4th gen even we have upgraded Jags to Darin II and MiG-27 to Upg.

yes but we don't import it except engines as we have full technology with us. I will say all of it was not Pakistani but the point is that we make it instead of assembling the kits.

 

[CriticalThought]

according to Pakistan army new doctrine we can mobilize our army even faster than your army.

secondly you don't have that electronic war capability to do it.

you cannot achieve element of surprise as our intelligence agencies are very alert and deep presence inside India.

3rd US won't want any such war which will destabilize Afghanistan even more and won't want us to change the camp.

Indians don't have that overwhelming numerical superiority to do the job.

on paper every thing may be good but in real scenario it could be a disaster too.

you cannot attack from all side simultaneously because cold start is all about short and limited war not an all out war.

other factors which you never took into account are effects on Indian economy due to nuclear threats?
what is all Pakistanis already heavily armed start an all out war and the cold start turns into a long 6-7 month war or even more?

and the best part is that what if we mobilize even faster due to our doctrine and capture your land in a surprise attack?

what will be the effects of Chinese mobilization to save CPEC on your army capability?

what if we take it to nuclear level and do nuclear tests on our own land as it is our right to test weapons inside Pakistan?

what if someone raise the slogan ghazwa e hind and people from all muslim countries started attacking you.

Sir, please note that I am just playing devil's advocate here, and the intention is for us to be not complacent.

ALL of Pakistan's problems today go back to the machinations of the United States. To this end, it is creating a very potent Afghan airforce comprising hundreds of advanced helicopters, it has opened the doors of latest technologies for India to buy as it wishes, and it will make available any and all intelligence capabilities to India in times of war.

Thus, we have to seriously look into the scenario where our electronic surveillance is circumvented through subterfuge and subversion. Electronics is the eyes through which real time intelligence keeps us informed. Human intelligence is valuable, but it simply cannot be real time. Let us see what assets India needs to engage to create an initial shock and awe:

1. SU-30, ALCM Brahmos, and land based Brahmos in sufficiently large numbers. They can safely amass these hundreds of kilometres within Indian borders. Human intelligence could give us advanced warning of the accretion, but we can't do much about weapons deep within India.

2. Submarine launched Brahmos in sufficiently large numbers. Submarine communications are by nature extremely secure and we should not rely on intercepting messages in this case.

4. Aerial operation from Afghanistan by either Afghan airforce, or US airforce. We should assume the full power of US being utilized.

Now, if our electronic surveillance is circumvented through Electronic Warfare, it takes a remote command to launch land based Brahmos. In parallel, SU-30 can take off in mass numbers to time the ALCMs to strike at approximately the same time. Similarly the sea based component. If such a massive strike is accomplished while deceiving our electronic surveillance, it can deliver a potent enough blow to seriously confuse us. If, our means of communication is also jammed, it means we will not be able to coordinate a response. In this respect, the presence of American embassies along with unknown electronic equipment is highly disconcerting. We should assume those sprawling complexes are tools of electronic destruction, ready to destroy our means of communication in times of war. In this background, an Indian corps can definitely advance into Pakistan to take over important territory. All of this can be accomplished within 72 hours with proper training and coordination.

Now, if tactical nukes are localized within the Thar/Rajhistan theatre, they will be easy to localize and easy to neutralize. But even if they are spread all along the border, their limited range means they are easy to localize. Consider the recent American initiative wherein a grant was given to research into ways of locating tactical nukes.

For Pakistan, it means we need high-tech and robust counter-measures unknown to both United States and India, and which cannot be jammed/confused by them. We also need an effective and cheap counter to Brahmos, thus creating an asymmetry and increasing the cost for India.

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

Sir, please note that I am just playing devil's advocate here, and the intention is for us to be not complacent.

ALL of Pakistan's problems today go back to the machinations of the United States. To this end, it is creating a very potent Afghan airforce comprising hundreds of advanced helicopters, it has opened the doors of latest technologies for India to buy as it wishes, and it will make available any and all intelligence capabilities to India in times of war.

Thus, we have to seriously look into the scenario where our electronic surveillance is circumvented through subterfuge and subversion. Electronics is the eyes through which real time intelligence keeps us informed. Human intelligence is valuable, but it simply cannot be real time. Let us see what assets India needs to engage to create an initial shock and awe:

1. SU-30, ALCM Brahmos, and land based Brahmos in sufficiently large numbers. They can safely amass these hundreds of kilometres within Indian borders. Human intelligence could give us advanced warning of the accretion, but we can't do much about weapons deep within India.

2. Submarine launched Brahmos in sufficiently large numbers. Submarine communications are by nature extremely secure and we should not rely on intercepting messages in this case.

4. Aerial operation from Afghanistan by either Afghan airforce, or US airforce. We should assume the full power of US being utilized.

Now, if our electronic surveillance is circumvented through Electronic Warfare, it takes a remote command to launch land based Brahmos. In parallel, SU-30 can take off in mass numbers to time the ALCMs to strike at approximately the same time. Similarly the sea based component. If such a massive strike is accomplished while deceiving our electronic surveillance, it can deliver a potent enough blow to seriously confuse us. If, our means of communication is also jammed, it means we will not be able to coordinate a response. In this respect, the presence of American embassies along with unknown electronic equipment is highly disconcerting. We should assume those sprawling complexes are tools of electronic destruction, ready to destroy our means of communication in times of war. In this background, an Indian corps can definitely advance into Pakistan to take over important territory. All of this can be accomplished within 72 hours with proper training and coordination.

Now, if tactical nukes are localized within the Thar/Rajhistan theatre, they will be easy to localize and easy to neutralize. But even if they are spread all along the border, their limited range means they are easy to localize. Consider the recent American initiative wherein a grant was given to research into ways of locating tactical nukes.

For Pakistan, it means we need high-tech and robust counter-measures unknown to both United States and India, and which cannot be jammed/confused by them. We also need an effective and cheap counter to Brahmos, thus creating an asymmetry and increasing the cost for India.

we need indigenous electronics warfare equipment. It is a fact that in those areas you can't rely on anyone including Chinese. maybe they become our enemies and then we are left with no options.

 

[Bratva]

not made public but since its in serial production from 12 years, they are in very large number.

such weapons are always produces in large numbers.

We need to understand, Babur Cruise missile took 7 years to develop. It's Serial production began in 2012 when it achieved it's Final Operational Clearance . And just as Al Khalid tanks production is hindered due to financial constraints. Expect babur Production to be hit by same snags coupled with NESCOM and related entities are under sanction. Prodution rate wont be astronomical

 

[khanmubashir]

Nope.
Pakistan bahbar production rate is very slow compared to India's production of Brahmos.
India has got far more Brahmos than Pakistan has Bahbur.

In addition we have got over 200 Kh-59ME ALCMs


Lol.
India 394 4th gen jets whereas Pakistan has a mere 165 4th gen jets.

Where do u have the stats that Pak Babar production rate in slower than India ?? If we can produce more nukes and jets (jf17 mushak ) then u even though we started decades late so can cruise missile
And u r still not producing ,4gen jets have to Import em Teja is still questionable while we r producing and inducting em jf17

 

[Smriti95]

Where do u have the stats that Pak Babar production rate in slower than India ?? If we can produce more nukes and jets (jf17 mushak ) then u even though we started decades late so can cruise missile
And u r still not producing ,4gen jets have to Import em Teja is still questionable while we r producing and inducting em jf17

We have produced 190 Su-30 MKI whereas Pakistan produced only 90 JF-17.
We have also produced over a 100 Hawk Trainer jets.
We have more fissile material than Pakistan.

 

[khanmubashir]

We have produced 190 Su-30 MKI whereas Pakistan produced only 90 JF-17.
We have also produced over a 100 Hawk Trainer jets.
We have more fissile material than Pakistan.

Su?? U just assembled em and u started from late 90s and we from late 2000s stats of assembled nukes by international organization do rank our stock to b bigger and with new reactors our production rate of fissile materials is also increasing

 

[Falcon26]

Lahore is a city of 10+ millions if India does a major air raid Pak also can do similar on Delhi
And such provocation can lead to digest strategic weapons usage

Exactly. Imagine Pakistan taking out targeted strikes against Indian military installations in Mumbai, New Delhi and other commercial centers. The damage to India’s economy will linger for a long time. The Cold Start Doctrine brings to the fore the near certain destruction of India’s economy and its stock market which like every stock market is speculation based.

Indian military planners will settle for Bollywood style phantom “surgical strikes” to feed the ego of their politicians and public but beyond that will not risk damaging their economy. If CSD was a viable option, Indians would not wait a day late. They would have carried out their CSD from the minute they have the capability. They couldn’t interfere with Pakistan’s nuclear program even with Israel support for fear of consequences and counter reaction. Same dynamics at play. It’s just to soothe the ego of Indian elite that think they should be compared with China and regarded as a global power despite being generations behind China in almost every conceivable metric

 

[Hellfire]

The joker who you are talking to says even hundred nukes can do no harm to India.

Any words for that? Or you think India not attacking Kuch is more laughable idea.

Areesh.

Another one of those almost rare posts
How have you been? Hope the almighty showers the choicest blessings on you and yours.

The topic has been exhausted on relevant thread earlier.

Please head there and tag if you want. Or you can head to the first original thread in 2010 (?) by @Kasrkin ask the mods to undelete my posts from the data bank.

And it is laughable .... the pertinent point which interests me. What has been claimed by any member I am not privy nor interested in.

As for the present OP, I merely drew out the points which are fundamentally flawed. Additionally, the oft quoted quip of Nasr remains the feel good factor for our keyboard warriors here.

The day mating of Nasr takes place in real time on a permanent rotational basis, let me know. Till then forgive me for being a sceptic