Geographical representation of Cold Start Doctrine

[BATMAN]

RAW and Indian army see Sikh as threat to their ideology of grand Hindu state.
Contrary to the map in OP, Sikhs will be bombed by the Indian army them self, this is one key objective of Indian cold start.

 

[Tipu7]

@Tipu7 Land attack version and Air Launched version of Brahmos. Both of their ranges have been extended to 400 KM. An overwhelming strike of Brahmos coupled with opening multiple fronts at Kashmir and Lahore sector while 1 strike corps of Indian army which is specifically training for Cold start since last 6-7 years strike our weak point which you have already mentioned in the map.

The core purpose of Cold Start Doctrine is to deliver quick, surprise limited but effective blow to Pakistan with out giving it enough justification to overcome nuclear threshold. If India use overwhelming missile strikes of Brahmos upto the scale of disabling Pakistan forward defenses then it will surely cross the red line. Thus will overcome the nuclear threshold hence killing the key objective of Cold Start Doctrine. This hypothetical scenario is too hypothetical to actually happen.

Lets modify stealth heli thing to a large fleet of helicopters flying nap of earth just as Pakistan army did in S.Waziristan or American forces did in Vietnam. along with Indian C-130 and C-17 Globemaster air dropping in sindh sector

Kashmir front would be interesting. Lets assume, The mountain strike division that india is raising can be re-routed to Kashmir on immediate bases or airborne troops can keep be airdropped behind enemy lines while ground troops attack the front flank as a pincer movement

"
The parachute battalions employed counter-insurgency roles, both in the northeast and Jammu and Kashmir, have performed commendably, earning 11 COAS Unit Citations. In these operations, 11 personnel of the regiment were awarded the Ashok Chakra, the nation's highest gallantry award in peace. 9 Para (SF) was conferred the "Bravest of the Brave" honour in 2001.

In 1999, nine out of ten parachute battalions were deployed for Operation Vijay in Kargil, Jammu and Kashmir, which bears testimony to the operational profile of the regiment. While the parachute brigade cleared the Mushkoh Valley, 5 Para was actively involved in the Batalik sector, where it exhibited great courage and tenacity, and was awarded the COAS Unit Citation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parachute_Regiment_(India)

That's interesting indeed. But it's not Cold Start. Attaining such capacity will require significant military drills which cannot be kept under cover. The moment this delicate strategy will come to shape, Pakistan will surely polish its defense strategy by then.

 

[CriticalThought]

The core purpose of Cold Start Doctrine is to deliver quick, surprise limited but effective blow to Pakistan with out giving it enough justification to overcome nuclear threshold. If India use overwhelming missile strikes of Brahmos upto the scale of disabling Pakistan forward defenses then it will surely cross the red line. Thus will overcome the nuclear threshold hence killing the key objective of Cold Start Doctrine. This hypothetical scenario is too hypothetical to actually happen.


That's interesting indeed. But it's not Cold Start. Attaining such capacity will require significant military drills which cannot be kept under cover. The moment this delicate strategy will come to shape, Pakistan will surely polish its defense strategy by then.

Sir, CSD is constantly in flux. It encompasses a sudden, overwhelming strike of such magnitude and force that we don't even have the senses and wits about us to respond with nuclear option, or such massive force could be exerted along with neutralizing our tactical nukes and render us so senseless (i.e., weaken the command and control structure to such an extent) that we can't respond with strategic assets. We would be making a huge mistake if we were to ignore this.

 

[Bratva]

The core purpose of Cold Start Doctrine is to deliver quick, surprise limited but effective blow to Pakistan with out giving it enough justification to overcome nuclear threshold. If India use overwhelming missile strikes of Brahmos upto the scale of disabling Pakistan forward defenses then it will surely cross the red line. Thus will overcome the nuclear threshold hence killing the key objective of Cold Start Doctrine. This hypothetical scenario is too hypothetical to actually happen.


That's interesting indeed. But it's not Cold Start. Attaining such capacity will require significant military drills which cannot be kept under cover. The moment this delicate strategy will come to shape, Pakistan will surely polish its defense strategy by then.

How launching of brahmos is akin to crossing nuclear threshold ? CSD is either of two things, cross pakistan, capture significant land to make Pakistan agree to its demand. Or Surgical strikes without crossing border via Standoff weapons. In either case Brahmos are going to be launched.

One way India can stop Pakistan from launching Nasr, is to escalating its conflict on Kasmir and Lahore sector. Threaten to level lahore and adjoining areas via conventional means if Nasr is launched against Indian forces in Pakistan. Cold start is not going to go beyond one WEEK. If it goes beyond one WEEK, then this is where NASR will come into play imho

Regarding large scale airlifting, Did Pakistan do any large scale military drills before S.Waziristan or Peochar airborne Ops ? I guess not. Small scale, Squadron or batallion base exercises can be conducted without raising any red flags and when the time comes it is just a job of flying into formation.

Ofcourse All depends upon, Pakistan forward Air defenses has been neutralized through Stand off Weapons via Indian artillery MLRS and Brahmos strike.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

BS.
An offensive is definitely possible in Jammu which is why two divisions of XVI corps are converting to Rapid (Mechanised) divisions.

Yes, limited offensives are possible; but it will achieve little results.

 

[randomradio]

@hellfire @Joe Shearer
Interesting thread here.

The core purpose of Cold Start Doctrine is to deliver quick, surprise limited but effective blow to Pakistan with out giving it enough justification to overcome nuclear threshold. If India use overwhelming missile strikes of Brahmos upto the scale of disabling Pakistan forward defenses then it will surely cross the red line. Thus will overcome the nuclear threshold hence killing the key objective of Cold Start Doctrine. This hypothetical scenario is too hypothetical to actually happen.

The point of Cold Start is to initiate hostilities before the politicians develop Cold Feet.

The point is to start the war using our holding corps first and if the war escalates, we can then move our strike corps in to finish the task. If the war doesn't escalate, we will have made some major tactical gains for negotiations.

You forget that Cold Start is pretty much a Corps level operation with more than Corps level firepower. So you can assume India has a new 4th strike corps that can launch an offensive in less than 72 hours. The best part about this 'strike corps' is PA high command has no idea about the ORBAT, the path of invasion, the objectives of each of the 8 IBGs etc.

Scary, huh?

If offensive air operations start two weeks before our strike corps are ready, you can imagine the damage that will have been inflicted to Pakistani forces during the course of the two weeks. PA may not even be an effective fighting force by the time the strike corps move in.

That's interesting indeed. But it's not Cold Start. Attaining such capacity will require significant military drills which cannot be kept under cover. The moment this delicate strategy will come to shape, Pakistan will surely polish its defense strategy by then.

We are already training for that.

 

[Hellfire]

@hellfire @Joe Shearer
Interesting thread here.

Man, you are bored. I was here interacting with people I like interacting with, having decided to not enjoy the shock and awe of intellect here. And you tagged me here.

What interested you?

Let us examine the contentions:

Kashmir and Runn of Kutch region are pretty much secure from any CSD based invasion. In Punjab plains, Pakistan has capability to deal, repel and even answer any CSD based invasion. Only vulnerable spot, i.e the Thar Desert region is 'protected' by deterrence cast by Pakistan's development of NASR Tactical Nuclear Weapon utilizing doctrinal posture of Full Spectrum Minimum Deterrence.



If you notice in the first line itself, you can see how flawed the premise here is, and what level of understanding of the Doctrine is available. The OP clearly assumes something.
As for the last sentence, you will find the interesting premise of Nasr as always and that too already mated with warheads

Need I even go on?

The point of Cold Start is to initiate hostilities before the politicians develop Cold Feet.

Yes and certainly no. The aim is to allow flexibility to the political class before the International Pressure kicks in. So I would not agree with this contention.

And Certainly No comes with the fact that the Cold Start is based on Pivot Corps initiating and achieving breakthroughs at certain points (while multiple points will be struck, it is assumed that only few will succeed in a breach), while the strike corps elements will exploit the same for deeper thrust beyond a node.

The point is to start the war using our holding corps first and if the war escalates, we can then move our strike corps in to finish the task. If the war doesn't escalate, we will have made some major tactical gains for negotiations.

There is no Holding Corps concept anymore. And there is no if war escalates.


I would suggest going back to the dedicated thread. The OP has been there.

RAW and Indian army see Sikh as threat to their ideology of grand Hindu state.
Contrary to the map in OP, Sikhs will be bombed by the Indian army them self, this is one key objective of Indian cold start.

@randomradio

This was interesting ... I am yet to know this


Was this why you tagged me here?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Man, you are bored. I was here interacting with people I like interacting with, having decided to not enjoy the shock and awe of intellect here. And you tagged me here.

What interested you?

Let us examine the contentions:

Kashmir and Runn of Kutch region are pretty much secure from any CSD based invasion. In Punjab plains, Pakistan has capability to deal, repel and even answer any CSD based invasion. Only vulnerable spot, i.e the Thar Desert region is 'protected' by deterrence cast by Pakistan's development of NASR Tactical Nuclear Weapon utilizing doctrinal posture of Full Spectrum Minimum Deterrence.



If you notice in the first line itself, you can see how flawed the premise here is, and what level of understanding of the Doctrine is available. The OP clearly assumes something.
As for the last sentence, you will find the interesting premise of Nasr as always and that too already mated with warheads

Need I even go on?



Yes and certainly no. The aim is to allow flexibility to the political class before the International Pressure kicks in. So I would not agree with this contention.

And Certainly No comes with the fact that the Cold Start is based on Pivot Corps initiating and achieving breakthroughs at certain points (while multiple points will be struck, it is assumed that only few will succeed in a breach), while the strike corps elements will exploit the same for deeper thrust beyond a node.




There is no Holding Corps concept anymore. And there is no if war escalates.


I would suggest going back to the dedicated thread. The OP has been there.


@randomradio

This was interesting ... I am yet to know this


Was this why you tagged me here?

Amazing.

No, make that awe-inspiring.

 

[randomradio]

Man, you are bored. I was here interacting with people I like interacting with, having decided to not enjoy the shock and awe of intellect here. And you tagged me here.

What interested you?

Let us examine the contentions:

Kashmir and Runn of Kutch region are pretty much secure from any CSD based invasion. In Punjab plains, Pakistan has capability to deal, repel and even answer any CSD based invasion. Only vulnerable spot, i.e the Thar Desert region is 'protected' by deterrence cast by Pakistan's development of NASR Tactical Nuclear Weapon utilizing doctrinal posture of Full Spectrum Minimum Deterrence.



If you notice in the first line itself, you can see how flawed the premise here is, and what level of understanding of the Doctrine is available. The OP clearly assumes something.
As for the last sentence, you will find the interesting premise of Nasr as always and that too already mated with warheads

Need I even go on?



Yes and certainly no. The aim is to allow flexibility to the political class before the International Pressure kicks in. So I would not agree with this contention.

And Certainly No comes with the fact that the Cold Start is based on Pivot Corps initiating and achieving breakthroughs at certain points (while multiple points will be struck, it is assumed that only few will succeed in a breach), while the strike corps elements will exploit the same for deeper thrust beyond a node.




There is no Holding Corps concept anymore. And there is no if war escalates.


I would suggest going back to the dedicated thread. The OP has been there.


@randomradio

This was interesting ... I am yet to know this


Was this why you tagged me here?

My apologies. I tagged you both before going through the thread first.

But you hit the nail on the head when you said was bored. :p

 

[Kompromat]

You mean to say Indians can attack CPEC Eastern alignment and get away with it without PLA breathing fire down its throat?

 

[Gryphon]

10th infantry division of 16 corps converted to a Mechanised division this year.
Another division of 16 corps will convert by next year, thus 16 corps will change from being a mixed corps into a strike corps.
After this change 16 corps will have 2 Mechanised divisions, 1 reinforced infantry division, 3 armoured brigades, at least 1 artillery brigade and two independent infantry brigades and an engineering brigade.

Just look up Wikipedia to know what lies opposite.

 

[CHACHA"G"]

I am interfering here...I know.

But what will we do if above mentioned scenario occurs? How are we going to counter it?

@MastanKhan @DESERT FIGHTER

I believe we are good fighters and can defeat Indians. My only fear is :-

1. Lack of leadership on our side.
2. our men getting outnumbered.
3. Our low oil reserves.
4. Our unguarded western border.

شاھین میزایل

If I can answer this , then:
We have to upgrade our 2 corps ASAP, and these 2 are Lahore and Gujranwala , Simple Inf divs need to be upgraded to full Mech Divs with proper IFVs , AFVs and Tank Hunters.... and both corps also need independent Armoured Brig. with Mech Brig. for attack,,,,,,,
That will release great pressure from Punjab side ,,,,, And will almost kill any hot or cold start ,,, because after upgrades our 2 corps can handle any thing that India throw at them and they can also attack on enemy...
And in Kashmir , we need 1 full mountain corps with 100,000 men ,,,,,,,,
And to counter manpower , we have to add numbers in Rangers,,, we have to upgrade them just like FC.

 

[Tipu7]

The point is to start the war using our holding corps first and if the war escalates, we can then move our strike corps in to finish the task. If the war doesn't escalate, we will have made some major tactical gains for negotiations.

Absolutely wrong. Cold War Doctrine is strictly about limited war. If you are talking about escalating it then via Strike corps then you are contradicting your self. Concept of 'holding corps' died along side Operation Parakram.

You forget that Cold Start is pretty much a Corps level operation with more than Corps level firepower.

Cold Start is NOT a Corps level operation with 'much more' corps level fire power. The fighting pattern & command execution system in Cold Start is way different than conventional 'Corp based' frontal assaults. you are wrong here too.

The best part about this 'strike corps' is PA high command has no idea about the ORBAT, the path of invasion, the objectives of each of the 8 IBGs etc.

How about if we tag these remarks as 'blind assumptions' based upon 'non credible' and biased personal thoughts?

If offensive air operations start two weeks before our strike corps are ready, you can imagine the damage that will have been inflicted to Pakistani forces during the course of the two weeks. PA may not even be an effective fighting force by the time the strike corps move in.

If you are talking about fighting air battle for two weeks then initiating ground invasion then it is definitely not 'cold start' but some regular war fighting doctrine.

If you notice in the first line itself, you can see how flawed the premise here is, and what level of understanding of the Doctrine is available. The OP clearly assumes something.
As for the last sentence, you will find the interesting premise of Nasr as always and that too already mated with warheads

Its game of assumption. If your assumptions/undestanding on 'version' of Cold Start are different according to which my assumptions are wrong then kindly apply the correction factors. As per Nasr, well as long as its being underestimated on internet and overestimated by Indian Military command, its doing its work very well.

Need I even go on?

Go ahead, its being while since we cross swords.

You mean to say Indians can attack CPEC Eastern alignment and get away with it without PLA breathing fire down its throat?

Nah, as per my belief Cold Start based invasion is not possible in Kashmir region. However Cold War inspired ''aerial'' operation can become reality, provided that India develop belief that it can survive in two front war or can achieve its objectives with out pushing Pakistan to limit where it could justify usage of its nuclear weapons.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

And all of King's men and all of their horses.... tinker tailor soldier spy...

The Essence of CSD is not any limited war or capturing Pak territories or dismembering Pak state... all of this will bring much troubles and lasting pains to India. This is well known to Indian strategists... Hence we don't see any adventures or misadventures from Indians....

No. The quintessence of CSD is to destroy Pak army.. to destroy its credebility, its stature and its percieved hold on Pak state... with the ultimate goal of having a compliant state to the West of India a la BD.

And Pak Army knows this very well. So does the Indian Army. So do the politicos...

However, the equations have changed a bit since the last decade as it has become a strategic imperative for China to keep her investements secure... more so than in the past when the calculus was keeping India occupied in the S Asia... Now with the Indian assertive attitude towards China.... more calculations, new equations.

This will require the strategists from India to come up with a new doctorine to achieve this ultimate goal. This CSD is now just a scarecrow... taking attention away from the new emerging mechanisms...

The CSD is a PsyOp against Pak Army. Nothing more....

War is Stupid and only Stupids want Wars...

At best there is a strategic interia from both sides and impasse is not going anywhere anytime soon. So the avid student shall keep studying the dynamics of the Waring States....

... but the people are hungry... they have no bread, Your Majesty.... Oh...but why don't they eat cake then....????

 

[Gurjot.S]

CSD or not, I.N will play a big big role in next war with pakistan if it happens. Status of pak army cant be undermined ever in pakistan even if it looses. Incident of 71,kargil are in front of us.