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Geographical representation of Cold Start Doctrine

And all of King's men and all of their horses.... tinker tailor soldier spy...

The Essence of CSD is not any limited war or capturing Pak territories or dismembering Pak state... all of this will bring much troubles and lasting pains to India. This is well known to Indian strategists... Hence we don't see any adventures or misadventures from Indians....

No. The quintessence of CSD is to destroy Pak army.. to destroy its credebility, its stature and its percieved hold on Pak state... with the ultimate goal of having a compliant state to the West of India a la BD.

And Pak Army knows this very well. So does the Indian Army. So do the politicos...

However, the equations have changed a bit since the last decade as it has become a strategic imperative for China to keep her investements secure... more so than in the past when the calculus was keeping India occupied in the S Asia... Now with the Indian assertive attitude towards China.... more calculations, new equations.

This will require the strategists from India to come up with a new doctorine to achieve this ultimate goal. This CSD is now just a scarecrow... taking attention away from the new emerging mechanisms...

War is Stupid and only Stupids want Wars...

At best there is a strategic interia from both sides and impasse is not going anywhere anytime soon. So the avid student shall keep studying the dynamics of the Waring States....

... but the people are hungry... they have no bread, Your Majesty.... Oh...but why don't they eat cake then....????

You are very right my friend. If Pakistan and its people want their country to emerge from a dark time. Then the whole present structure needs to go and it needs to go fast. If we want this stalemate with our neighbor to end. Then we need to clean house. And change the british raj system that we have inherited.

To fight war we need good governors who are actually governing and looking out for the best interest of their people. We need diplomats, beaurucrats, media persons we need everyone to be on the same page. We need to build our self respect and make the world respect us. Above all we need an ironclad economy.
 
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If I can answer this , then:
We have to upgrade our 2 corps ASAP, and these 2 are Lahore and Gujranwala , Simple Inf divs need to be upgraded to full Mech Divs with proper IFVs , AFVs and Tank Hunters.... and both corps also need independent Armoured Brig. with Mech Brig. for attack,,,,,,,
That will release great pressure from Punjab side ,,,,, And will almost kill any hot or cold start ,,, because after upgrades our 2 corps can handle any thing that India throw at them and they can also attack on enemy...
And in Kashmir , we need 1 full mountain corps with 100,000 men ,,,,,,,,
And to counter manpower , we have to add numbers in Rangers,,, we have to upgrade them just like FC.

We should not only defend ourselves but should capture enemy territory and make sure all battle takes place on Indian soil..
 
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@Tipu7 Sir a critical error in this analysis is expecting the enemy to follow the expected patterns. Here are some other scenarios:

1. A grand stealth heli based invasion in Kashmir and Runn of Kutch to circumvent mountainous/boggy terrain.

2. A very sudden missile brute force strike followed by regular troops.

3. A surgical aerial strike.

I also want to revisit the Indian doctrine here. CSD today is not just about initiating war, it is about initiating it with surprise, subterfuge, and such overwhelming force that we are caught unawares and can't react quickly enough. Here is how it can happen:

1. Use EM attacks to disable/disarm/deceive our radar and electronic surveillance methods. This could involve making inroads into Western manufacturers to gain the necessary information.

2. Under cover of our electronic blindness, take out forward positions with a massive missile strike.

3. Follow quickly with heli borne special forces and air dropped support troops to hold territory.

4. Follow up as quickly as possible with mechanized infantry, heavy armor and propelled artillery, i.e., the regular troops.

5. In combination with this, either Afghanistan, or America, or Indian troops in Afghanistan strike us from the Western in parallel.

6. In parallel, flare up the working boundary and LoC so that we have multiple fronts open at the same time.

7. And finally, there is no knowing what if Iran will or will not join such a plan. Their loyalties are questionable.

8. Most importantly, buy out key Pakistani Generals and commanders.

Would Pak Army be able to survive a well-orchestrated brute force attack of such proportions?

EDIT: Let's not forget a missile barrage from submarines and a brute force naval attack at the same time. Add in the Indian air force attacking in large numbers and the picture is complete for CSD.
all of these methods are flop if you take Pakistan strong air defence systems in mind. no body use helicopters like this in first phase of war as it is a suicidal.
secondly any airstrike will be followed by a counter strike.
any missile strike will be followed by similar strike.
any armoured invasion will be responded by our strong armour and strong anti tank capabilities.

and stop assuming that India have a brute force against us. we have a very big and strong army.

@Tipu7 Land attack version and Air Launched version of Brahmos. Both of their ranges have been extended to 400 KM. An overwhelming strike of Brahmos coupled with opening multiple fronts at Kashmir and Lahore sector while 1 strike corps of Indian army which is specifically training for Cold start since last 6-7 years strike our weak point which you have already mentioned in the map.
brahamos is every thing for Indians.
any brahamos strike will be responded by our cruise missiles strikes and that too deep inside India and in even more larger numbers.

@Tipu7 Sir a critical error in this analysis is expecting the enemy to follow the expected patterns. Here are some other scenarios:

1. A grand stealth heli based invasion in Kashmir and Runn of Kutch to circumvent mountainous/boggy terrain.

2. A very sudden missile brute force strike followed by regular troops.

3. A surgical aerial strike.

I also want to revisit the Indian doctrine here. CSD today is not just about initiating war, it is about initiating it with surprise, subterfuge, and such overwhelming force that we are caught unawares and can't react quickly enough. Here is how it can happen:

1. Use EM attacks to disable/disarm/deceive our radar and electronic surveillance methods. This could involve making inroads into Western manufacturers to gain the necessary information.

2. Under cover of our electronic blindness, take out forward positions with a massive missile strike.

3. Follow quickly with heli borne special forces and air dropped support troops to hold territory.

4. Follow up as quickly as possible with mechanized infantry, heavy armor and propelled artillery, i.e., the regular troops.

5. In combination with this, either Afghanistan, or America, or Indian troops in Afghanistan strike us from the Western in parallel.

6. In parallel, flare up the working boundary and LoC so that we have multiple fronts open at the same time.

7. And finally, there is no knowing what if Iran will or will not join such a plan. Their loyalties are questionable.

8. Most importantly, buy out key Pakistani Generals and commanders.

Would Pak Army be able to survive a well-orchestrated brute force attack of such proportions?

EDIT: Let's not forget a missile barrage from submarines and a brute force naval attack at the same time. Add in the Indian air force attacking in large numbers and the picture is complete for CSD.
this whole scenario means India will be using all its weapons and Pakistan will be a sitting duck.
in wars both sides use every thing.
and you don't have any of those capabilities strong enough to attain complete surprise or victory.
on paper it is a good plan against somalia or Maldives, but not against Pakistan.
 
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How launching of brahmos is akin to crossing nuclear threshold ? CSD is either of two things, cross pakistan, capture significant land to make Pakistan agree to its demand. Or Surgical strikes without crossing border via Standoff weapons. In either case Brahmos are going to be launched.

One way India can stop Pakistan from launching Nasr, is to escalating its conflict on Kasmir and Lahore sector. Threaten to level lahore and adjoining areas via conventional means if Nasr is launched against Indian forces in Pakistan. Cold start is not going to go beyond one WEEK. If it goes beyond one WEEK, then this is where NASR will come into play imho

Regarding large scale airlifting, Did Pakistan do any large scale military drills before S.Waziristan or Peochar airborne Ops ? I guess not. Small scale, Squadron or batallion base exercises can be conducted without raising any red flags and when the time comes it is just a job of flying into formation.

Ofcourse All depends upon, Pakistan forward Air defenses has been neutralized through Stand off Weapons via Indian artillery MLRS and Brahmos strike.
Lahore is a city of 10+ millions if India does a major air raid Pak also can do similar on Delhi
And such provocation can lead to digest strategic weapons usage
 
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brahamos is every thing for Indians.
any brahamos strike will be responded by our cruise missiles strikes and that too deep inside India and in even more larger numbers.
Size of our Brahmos inventory out numbers size of Pakistan's Bahbur inventory 2:1.
 
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Size of our Brahmos inventory out numbers size of Pakistan's Bahbur inventory 2:1.
we don't have Babur only.
and size doesn't matter. we have produced Babur decade ago and we got more of them in numbers,while you still have to deploy your brahamos completely.
and our nasr is also a mini cruise missile which can change it path directory.
 
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Lahore is a city of 10+ millions if India does a major air raid Pak also can do similar on Delhi
And such provocation can lead to digest strategic weapons usage
India doesn't enjoy overwhelming air superiority in air power over Pak the gap between operational capabilities between two air force is shrinking Indian have bigger air Force but it's majority is obselete mig which India still doesn't have an alternative to replace but we already have replaced our with near 100 jf and increasing
As for brahmos we also have much longer range Babar and raad which we can fire from outside brahmos range but still hit deep into India and our missile r more stealth and nimble comapred to brahmos which is faster but also rigid for land attacks in practicality doesn't give much more advantage then supersonic short range ballistic missile which both sides have been Fielding for decades
 
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we don't have Babur only.
and size doesn't matter. we have produced Babur decade ago and we got more of them in numbers,while you still have to deploy your brahamos completely.
and our nasr is also a mini cruise missile which can change it path directory.
Nope.
Pakistan bahbar production rate is very slow compared to India's production of Brahmos.
India has got far more Brahmos than Pakistan has Bahbur.

In addition we have got over 200 Kh-59ME ALCMs

India doesn't enjoy overwhelming air superiority in air power over Pak the gap between operational capabilities between two air force is shrinking Indian have bigger air Force but it's majority is obselete mig which India still doesn't have an alternative to replace but we already have replaced our with near 100 jf and increasing
As for brahmos we also have much longer range Babar and raad which we can fire from outside brahmos range but still hit deep into India and our missile r more stealth and nimble comapred to brahmos which is faster but also rigid for land attacks in practicality doesn't give much more advantage then supersonic short range ballistic missile which both sides have been Fielding for decades
Lol.
India 394 4th gen jets whereas Pakistan has a mere 165 4th gen jets.
 
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Nope.
Pakistan bahbar production rate is very slow compared to India's production of Brahmos.
India has got far more Brahmos than Pakistan has Bahbur.

In addition we have got over 200 Kh-59ME ALCMs


Lol.
India 394 4th gen jets whereas Pakistan has a mere 165 4th gen jets.
plz name those4th generation aircraft other than su 30.
and Babur production rate is much higher and it has been produced since 2005.
your brahamos is just a kid.

now about your airforce. you need more aircraft to secure 6 time more bigger country. we despite a 6 time smaller country have almost half of your air force and army. and more bigger navy as compare to Indian navy in terms of area to be secured vs weapons.
you cannot bring your whole army to our border leaving other borders insecure but our whole armed forces are Indian centric.

we are statistically equal in terns of numbers and our men have more experience and better training, thanks to war on terror.

Nope.
Pakistan bahbar production rate is very slow compared to India's production of Brahmos.
India has got far more Brahmos than Pakistan has Bahbur.

In addition we have got over 200 Kh-59ME ALCMs


Lol.
India 394 4th gen jets whereas Pakistan has a mere 165 4th gen jets.
why make a fake second Id Mr. vengeful one.

your comments are always the same. 394 4th gen jets.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-non-nuclear-plan-to-counter-cold-start.485506/

@waz are 2 ids allowed at a time or is he banned?
 
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all of these methods are flop if you take Pakistan strong air defence systems in mind. no body use helicopters like this in first phase of war as it is a suicidal.
secondly any airstrike will be followed by a counter strike.
any missile strike will be followed by similar strike.
any armoured invasion will be responded by our strong armour and strong anti tank capabilities.

and stop assuming that India have a brute force against us. we have a very big and strong army.


brahamos is every thing for Indians.
any brahamos strike will be responded by our cruise missiles strikes and that too deep inside India and in even more larger numbers.


this whole scenario means India will be using all its weapons and Pakistan will be a sitting duck.
in wars both sides use every thing.
and you don't have any of those capabilities strong enough to attain complete surprise or victory.
on paper it is a good plan against somalia or Maldives, but not against Pakistan.

Sir, the underpinning of my hypothesis is:

1. India will be abetted by USA.
2. It will employ Electronic Warfare to catch us by complete surprise. The subterfuge can be as deep as making inroads into our Western suppliers, especially SAAB.
3. Using the element of surprise, take out our forward defences en masse, and/or attack from all sides simultaneously and in all theatres: land, air, and sea.

So our Achilles' Heel is electronics, and I am extremely worried about our state of advancement in this area.
 
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Sir, the underpinning of my hypothesis is:

1. India will be abetted by USA.
2. It will employ Electronic Warfare to catch us by complete surprise. The subterfuge can be as deep as making inroads into our Western suppliers, especially SAAB.
3. Using the element of surprise, take out our forward defences en masse, and/or attack from all sides simultaneously and in all theatres: land, air, and sea.

So our Achilles' Heel is electronics, and I am extremely worried about our state of advancement in this area.
according to Pakistan army new doctrine we can mobilize our army even faster than your army.

secondly you don't have that electronic war capability to do it.

you cannot achieve element of surprise as our intelligence agencies are very alert and deep presence inside India.

3rd US won't want any such war which will destabilize Afghanistan even more and won't want us to change the camp.

Indians don't have that overwhelming numerical superiority to do the job.

on paper every thing may be good but in real scenario it could be a disaster too.

you cannot attack from all side simultaneously because cold start is all about short and limited war not an all out war.

other factors which you never took into account are effects on Indian economy due to nuclear threats?
what is all Pakistanis already heavily armed start an all out war and the cold start turns into a long 6-7 month war or even more?

and the best part is that what if we mobilize even faster due to our doctrine and capture your land in a surprise attack?

what will be the effects of Chinese mobilization to save CPEC on your army capability?

what if we take it to nuclear level and do nuclear tests on our own land as it is our right to test weapons inside Pakistan?

what if someone raise the slogan ghazwa e hind and people from all muslim countries started attacking you.
 
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plz name those4th generation aircraft other than su 30.
and Babur production rate is much higher and it has been produced since 2005.
your brahamos is just a kid.

now about your airforce. you need more aircraft to secure 6 time more bigger country. we despite a 6 time smaller country have almost half of your air force and army. and more bigger navy as compare to Indian navy in terms of area to be secured vs weapons.
you cannot bring your whole army to our border leaving other borders insecure but our whole armed forces are Indian centric.

we are statistically equal in terns of numbers and our men have more experience and better training, thanks to war on terror.
MiG29K, MiG-29Upg, Mirage-2000.

Bahbur is a kid who was tested only in 2005, Brahmos tested in 2001.
Pakistan production capacity is far weaker than India.
Pakistan produced only 20 Al Khalid a year whereas India produced 100+ T-90 a year in 2016.

So obvioulsy India has more Brahmos.

As for air force you logic is wrong, we have to attack a small country Pakistan so a smaller air force would have been sufficient whereas you would have to attack a larger country like India so you need much larger.

why make a fake second Id Mr. vengeful one.

your comments are always the same. 394 4th gen jets.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-non-nuclear-plan-to-counter-cold-start.485506/

@waz are 2 ids allowed at a time or is he banned?
Rofl.
So what if another guy gave same numbers.
India has 394 4th gen jets and Pakistan has 165 4th gen jets is the number given in IISS 2016 military balance.
 
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MiG29K, MiG-29Upg, Mirage-2000.

Bahbur is a kid who was tested only in 2005, Brahmos tested in 2001.
Pakistan production capacity is far weaker than India.
Pakistan produced only 20 Al Khalid a year whereas India produced 100+ T-90 a year in 2016.

So obvioulsy India has 1 more Brahmos.

As for air force you logic is wrong, we have to attack a small country Pakistan so a smaller air force would have been sufficient whereas you would have to attack a larger country like India so you need much larger.
mig 29 and mirage 2000. well are you joking.
we have mirages too and all upgraded under rose program and you consider them 3rd generation aircraft.
what's so special about the Soviet era mig 29. was it used in star wars or what???
we are replacing our images and F7 PGs with jf 17. so does this mean we are replacing 4th generation mirages with a 5th generation jf17???

MiG29K, MiG-29Upg, Mirage-2000.

Bahbur is a kid who was tested only in 2005, Brahmos tested in 2001.
Pakistan production capacity is far weaker than India.
Pakistan produced only 20 Al Khalid a year whereas India produced 100+ T-90 a year in 2016.

So obvioulsy India has more Brahmos.

As for air force you logic is wrong, we have to attack a small country Pakistan so a smaller air force would have been sufficient whereas you would have to attack a larger country like India so you need much larger.
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bigger airspace of India means we wi ll find more easy ways to infiltrate while your relatively small air force won't be able to defend, while keeping Chinese threat in their heads.
India never produced T 90s, you just assembled those kits.
we upgraded our old tanks to a new generation tech, that's why Indians were once worried that your tanks are blind at night but our aren't.
 
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mig 29 and mirage 2000. well are you joking.
we have mirages too and all upgraded under rose program and you consider them 3rd generation aircraft.
what's so special about the Soviet era mig 29. was it used in star wars or what???
we are replacing our images and F7 PGs with jf 17. so does this mean we are replacing 4th generation mirages with a 5th generation jf17???
You are indeed hilarious.
MiG-29UPGs and MiG-29K are far more advanced and capable than JF-17.

Also we have 4th gen Mirage 2000-5 MK2 whereas you have obsolete 60s era Mirages.

bigger airspace of India means we wi ll find more easy ways to infiltrate while your relatively small air force won't be able to defend, while keeping Chinese threat in their heads.
India never produced T 90s, you just assembled those kits.
we upgraded our old tanks to a new generation tech, that's why Indians were once worried that your tanks are blind at night but our aren't.
Indian T-90 have got far more Indian content than Pakistani Al Khalid (MBT 2000) has got Pakistani content.

We upgraded over 1000 T-72 whereas you managed to upgrade a mere 500 to Al zarrar.
 
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