Geographical representation of Cold Start Doctrine

[Tipu7]

A limited war based upon Cold Start doctrine will be not be as feasible as it is believed in general.
In fact, despite of facing limits of geographical depth, Pakistan enjoys several geographical advantages.

Kashmir and Runn of Kutch region are pretty much secure from any CSD based invasion. In Punjab plains, Pakistan has capability to deal, repel and even answer any CSD based invasion. Only vulnerable spot, i.e the Thar Desert region is 'protected' by deterrence cast by Pakistan's development of NASR Tactical Nuclear Weapon utilizing doctrinal posture of Full Spectrum Minimum Deterrence.

At best, CSD can serve as catalyst to enhance Indian Conventional capabilities as we saw in exercises of Divya Astra, Vajra Shakti, Desert Strike, Sanghe Shakti, Ashwamedh and now Satrujeet. But the genreal peceptions by Indians in particular, that India will impose a limited war on Pakistan. expecting that Pakistan will too keep that war 'limited' is just absurd.

Theoretical capability may be there, but risk assessment and geopolitical feasibility indicate that Cold Start will ultimately suffer from same fate as Sundarji Doctrine (1984 - 2004).

@Horus @Side-Winder @WAJsal @HRK

 

[CriticalThought]

@Tipu7 Sir a critical error in this analysis is expecting the enemy to follow the expected patterns. Here are some other scenarios:

1. A grand stealth heli based invasion in Kashmir and Runn of Kutch to circumvent mountainous/boggy terrain.

2. A very sudden missile brute force strike followed by regular troops.

3. A surgical aerial strike.

I also want to revisit the Indian doctrine here. CSD today is not just about initiating war, it is about initiating it with surprise, subterfuge, and such overwhelming force that we are caught unawares and can't react quickly enough. Here is how it can happen:

1. Use EM attacks to disable/disarm/deceive our radar and electronic surveillance methods. This could involve making inroads into Western manufacturers to gain the necessary information.

2. Under cover of our electronic blindness, take out forward positions with a massive missile strike.

3. Follow quickly with heli borne special forces and air dropped support troops to hold territory.

4. Follow up as quickly as possible with mechanized infantry, heavy armor and propelled artillery, i.e., the regular troops.

5. In combination with this, either Afghanistan, or America, or Indian troops in Afghanistan strike us from the Western in parallel.

6. In parallel, flare up the working boundary and LoC so that we have multiple fronts open at the same time.

7. And finally, there is no knowing what if Iran will or will not join such a plan. Their loyalties are questionable.

8. Most importantly, buy out key Pakistani Generals and commanders.

Would Pak Army be able to survive a well-orchestrated brute force attack of such proportions?

EDIT: Let's not forget a missile barrage from submarines and a brute force naval attack at the same time. Add in the Indian air force attacking in large numbers and the picture is complete for CSD.

 

[Smriti95]

BS.
An offensive is definitely possible in Jammu which is why two divisions of XVI corps are converting to Rapid (Mechanised) divisions.

 

[Tipu7]

1. A grand stealth heli based invasion in Kashmir and Runn of Kutch to circumvent mountainous/boggy terrain.

Stealth Heli? What is this?

2. A very sudden missile brute force strike followed by regular troops.

Which missiles? Nuclear or conventional?

3. A surgical aerial strike.

PAF will be fielding 10 AWACS (6 Erieye + 4 ZDK03) by end of this year. A surgical strike of massive scale is no longer possible since it will carry no surprise element and considering Pakistan advancements in BVR combat along side Air defense systems, such strike will result in more loss than good.

BS.
An offensive is definitely possible in Jammu which is why two divisions of XVI corps are converting to Rapid (Mechanised) divisions.

Justify and explain your claims instead of killing it with one line of senseless statement.

 

[CriticalThought]

Stealth Heli? What is this?

For example, something like Commanche with angular surfaces and stealth coatings, or something like what was used in the OBL raid. Yes, I am saying USA will be complicit in this undertaking, along with other Western powers and a certain middle eastern powers.

Which missiles? Nuclear or conventional?

Conventional

PAF will be fielding 10 AWACS (6 Erieye + 4 ZDK03) by end of this year. A surgical strike of massive scale is no longer possible since it will carry no surprise element and considering Pakistan advancements in BVR combat along side Air defense systems, such strike will result in more loss than good.

They will be using Electronic Warfare, based on information that can potentially be supplied by Western manufacturers of the equipment we use.

 

[Smriti95]

Justify and explain your claims instead of killing it with one line of senseless statement.

10th infantry division of 16 corps converted to a Mechanised division this year.
Another division of 16 corps will convert by next year, thus 16 corps will change from being a mixed corps into a strike corps.
After this change 16 corps will have 2 Mechanised divisions, 1 reinforced infantry division, 3 armoured brigades, at least 1 artillery brigade and two independent infantry brigades and an engineering brigade.

 

[Tipu7]

For example, something like Commanche with angular surfaces and stealth coatings, or something like what was used in the OBL raid. Yes, I am saying USA will be complicit in this undertaking, along with other Western powers and a certain middle eastern powers.

No, its not possible. And no 'stealth' heli was used in OBL op.

Conventional

Indian don't have enough stock of conventional missiles to 'wipe out' Pakistan forward positions. MLRS might work but that too in a very confined window of opportunity.

They will be using Electronic Warfare, based on information that can potentially be supplied by Western manufacturers of the equipment we use.

As I said

Theoretical capability may be there

10th infantry division of 16 corps converted to a Mechanised division this year.
Another division of 16 corps will convert by next year, thus 16 corps will change from being a mixed corps into a strike corps.
After this change 16 corps will have 2 Mechanised divisions, 1 reinforced infantry division, 3 armoured brigades, at least 1 artillery brigade and two independent infantry brigades and an engineering brigade.

And how it is related to implementing Cold Start doctrine in Kashmir region?

 

[Reichsmarschall]

@Signalian

 

[Smriti95]

And how it is related to implementing Cold Start doctrine in Kashmir region?

Lol.
A strike corps is obviously meant for carrying out an offensive in Jammu region.

 

[CriticalThought]

No, its not possible. And no 'stealth' heli was used in OBL op.

Indian don't have enough stock of conventional missiles to 'wipe out' Pakistan forward positions. MLRS might work but that too in a very confined window of opportunity.

As I said


And how it is related to implementing Cold Start doctrine in Kashmir region?

Sir, I personally will only feel secure when we have an established indigenous base for electronic design and fabrication ranging from radars, communication, to opto-electric subsystems. Electronic Warfare is the key, and we simply aren't up to the mark there.

 

[Fireurimagination]

Why do it is always believed that India will initiate cold start right at the onset of war?? Can't India push in after knocking down Pakistan's defences and gaining total air superiority and that too from multiple fronts?? 1 month after the war breaks out will Pakistanis running low on ammo, oil reserves and money that will be the right time for the cold start

 

[Tipu7]

Why do it is always believed that India will initiate cold start right at the onset of war?? Can't India push in after knocking down Pakistan's defences and gaining total air superiority and that too from multiple fronts?? 1 month after the war breaks out will Pakistanis running low on ammo, oil reserves and money that will be the right time for the cold start

Suggesting to reread Cold Start Doctrine. You don't even know the basic layout of your own military doctrine...

Sir, I personally will only feel secure when we have an established indigenous base for electronic design and fabrication ranging from radars, communication, to opto-electric subsystems. Electronic Warfare is the key, and we simply aren't up to the mark there.

Agree. Gaps do exist.

Lol.
A strike corps is obviously meant for carrying out an offensive in Jammu region.

HOW?

 

[Bratva]

@Tipu7 Land attack version and Air Launched version of Brahmos. Both of their ranges have been extended to 400 KM. An overwhelming strike of Brahmos coupled with opening multiple fronts at Kashmir and Lahore sector while 1 strike corps of Indian army which is specifically training for Cold start since last 6-7 years strike our weak point which you have already mentioned in the map.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

@Tipu7 Land attack version and Air Launched version of Brahmos. Both of their ranges have been extended to 400 KM. An overwhelming strike of Brahmos coupled with opening multiple fronts at Kashmir and Lahore sector while 1 strike corps of Indian army which is specifically training for Cold start since last 6-7 years strike our weak point which you have already mentioned in the map.

I am interfering here...I know.

But what will we do if above mentioned scenario occurs? How are we going to counter it?

@MastanKhan @DESERT FIGHTER

I believe we are good fighters and can defeat Indians. My only fear is :-

1. Lack of leadership on our side.
2. our men getting outnumbered.
3. Our low oil reserves.
4. Our unguarded western border.

شاھین میزایل

 

[Bratva]

Stealth Heli? What is this?

Which missiles? Nuclear or conventional?

PAF will be fielding 10 AWACS (6 Erieye + 4 ZDK03) by end of this year. A surgical strike of massive scale is no longer possible since it will carry no surprise element and considering Pakistan advancements in BVR combat along side Air defense systems, such strike will result in more loss than good.


Justify and explain your claims instead of killing it with one line of senseless statement.

Lets modify stealth heli thing to a large fleet of helicopters flying nap of earth just as Pakistan army did in S.Waziristan or American forces did in Vietnam. along with Indian C-130 and C-17 Globemaster air dropping in sindh sector

Kashmir front would be interesting. Lets assume, The mountain strike division that india is raising can be re-routed to Kashmir on immediate bases or airborne troops can keep be airdropped behind enemy lines while ground troops attack the front flank as a pincer movement

"
The parachute battalions employed counter-insurgency roles, both in the northeast and Jammu and Kashmir, have performed commendably, earning 11 COAS Unit Citations. In these operations, 11 personnel of the regiment were awarded the Ashok Chakra, the nation's highest gallantry award in peace. 9 Para (SF) was conferred the "Bravest of the Brave" honour in 2001.

In 1999, nine out of ten parachute battalions were deployed for Operation Vijay in Kargil, Jammu and Kashmir, which bears testimony to the operational profile of the regiment. While the parachute brigade cleared the Mushkoh Valley, 5 Para was actively involved in the Batalik sector, where it exhibited great courage and tenacity, and was awarded the COAS Unit Citation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parachute_Regiment_(India)