General warns PLA, Shake off old ideas

[gambit]

Of course we should learn from the all mighty US military that can't defeat the Taliban fighters on flip flops in Afghanistan after 12 years of war.

You can bet whatever measly salary you have that the world's militaries take Afghanistan and Iraq seriously. Not to mock US, like how you are lamely trying to do, but to learn -- FROM THE BEST. Unlike you, they know we militarily defeated the Taliban. Look at your PLA's modernization. It got 'US' written all over.

Now go back to your video games.

 

[RAMPAGE]

You can bet whatever measly salary you have that the world's militaries take Afghanistan and Iraq seriously. Not to mock US, like how you are lamely trying to do, but to learn -- FROM THE BEST. Unlike you, they know we militarily defeated the Taliban. Look at your PLA's modernization. It got 'US' written all over.

Now go back to your video games.

you sure it's not the other way around !!!

 

[+4vsgorillas-Apebane]

So should the guys who predicted the US would have tens of thousands of casualties in Desert Storm.

Didnt the Americans predict to be "home by Christmas" during the Korean war? Didnt they expect to slaughter the peasants armed with nothing but a motley of second hand rifles, mortars and enthausiasm?
Then they lost half of Korea in their longest retreat ever.

Just a few years later, the French commanders were expecting to slaughter the Vietnamese at Dien Bien Phu (your brave former countrymen) but Chinese supply of artillery captured from the Americans in Korea forced the frogs to do what they always do - surrender.

Everyone makes mistakes old man.

 

[cnlckht]

All I can say is this guys mind is still stuck in the 2004. I am beginning to compare liberalism to opium, give too much freedom and people's priorities goes hair wire, set a certain direction and people will work towards that direction. So Chinese wants the China dream, the only way is to work for that dream, this general gives no new ideas, all his logic is based on idealism, which is no logic. Next he will say the PLA has the right to choose whether or not to fight or run in war, it's their liberal choice, sorry silly general, i rather we stick to collectivism, family values, and goal oriented values, over your idealistic dream, maybe in his idealism he wished China have failed so that his perverted Western ideals can take root, good to see his dreams never came to reality. The most funny thing is comparing the current modernization, that has made enormous strides to regressing back to the Qing era, someone wake him up and teach him actual history, we already discarded the regressive values of the Qing that did not work, and left that behind long ago, but we are also not going back to the communist Mao era that discarded the old legacies, idealistic liberals are one of the big threat to national security. New way of thinking is definitely not to copy the failed Western logic, it's to learn from their mistakes.

 

[Audio]

Now the Chinese members here are going to crack down hard on the general.

Duh....he wants to lower their paychecks.

less time on propaganda campaigns exaggerating the military's capabilities.

No moar Martian...., though it seems the poster above me finished ideology school with flying colors:

compare liberalism to opium
perverted Western ideals
failed Western logic

Gotta love it, no? the lord takes with one hand and gives with the other.

 

[jhungary]

maybe PLA need to make one of these member General, then they will know what's fail.......

 

[Genesis]

So should the guys who predicted the US would have tens of thousands of casualties in Desert Storm.

As should the people who thinks Iraq occupation will be a cake walk and requires just a few thousand men.

There are people who predict American down fall or what not from every sector, as the problems with American army and you always discredit those but first mention of problem of China.....

You don't have to be objective, but at least be somewhat consistent.

BTW, I know you like to mention desert storm, but it is not the greatest victory in the world dude, a super power against a non power, in thousands of years of world history, a war such as that is seen as nothing more than a ordinary war. Nobody ever mentions how quickly the Germans moved through Belgium but France, you know why, dude.

If Americans manage to do the same to China or Russia now, THEN maybe you start bragging, but until then, let's just relax.

Yea there is massive problems with the military, but which military doesn't.

Also, what he said is true, but is also what the military is working on. Stealth fighters, cyber warfare, improved training and equipment as well as education of individual soldiers and officers. The massive expansion of navy.

With the launch of Liaoning, and plans for future carriers, the intention of projecting force far away from home is on the cards.

As to exaggerate military capabilities, well, China didn't make documentary that says our fighters are the best thing since slice bread, unlike some countries in the world.

As a side note, we been called the most secretive military with no transparency, so how can we boast? Very hard to do both at the same time.

There are civilian shows sure, but that is true of any country that likes to show off their own stuff. I mean the Philippines shows off warship that isn't fit to be fishing boat are you calling them boastful?


As to the entertainment troops, singers and what not. They are becoming more and more obsolete as our film and music industry greatly expands. Before they were created cause we had non of that, but today, it is not so. A historic relic, that really doesn't do much to cripple the army, unless they go in the front lines, then we got problems.

 

[Slavery]

Didnt the Americans predict to be "home by Christmas" during the Korean war? Didnt they expect to slaughter the peasants armed with nothing but a motley of second hand rifles, mortars and enthausiasm?
Then they lost half of Korea in their longest retreat ever.

Just a few years later, the French commanders were expecting to slaughter the Vietnamese at Dien Bien Phu (your brave former countrymen) but Chinese supply of artillery captured from the Americans in Korea forced the frogs to do what they always do - surrender.

Everyone makes mistakes old man.

Yup, the Yanks got humiliated in the Korean War by the PVA. And they lost in Iraq in 1991, that's why they had to go back in 2003.....lost that too.

This guy is a liberal hack, most likely on the CIA payroll, the guy deserves to be kicked out of the military as his liberal ideologies are the biggest propaganda campaign.

The PLA right now could take down anyone in a full scale war including the US. We defeated the US fighting with sticks and stones in Korea and US military is overhyped just because they fought defenceless opposition. They'll get effed up if they fight Russia or China.

 

[gambit]

As should the people who thinks Iraq occupation will be a cake walk and requires just a few thousand men.

And this is where you are wrong. No surprise there.

No one in the B43's administration predicted that post Saddam Iraq occupation would be any sort of 'cakewalk'. There are plenty of post B43 administration books written by people who were directly involved in the immediate aftermath and not one of them said the discussions predicted an easy occupation. There were underestimation of the severity of many issues, that is a given and the worst came from high expectation for the Iraqis themselves, such as no one expected the Iraqi Army to effectively self disbanded by mass desertion, but no one actually predicted an easy occupation.

Am willing to bet that you have not read -- WITH AN OBJECTIVE MIND -- even just one of those many books.

BTW, I know you like to mention desert storm, but it is not the greatest victory in the world...

Neither was Germany's rapid invasion and conquest of Poland. But Desert Storm set a new paradigm in warfare the same way blitzkrieg did.

maybe PLA need to make one of these member General, then they will know what's fail.......

Not really...Considering how they trumpeted the Korean War as a Chinese 'victory' and some believed the US 'lost' in Desert Storm, they will turn any failure, no matter how epic, into an even greater epic propaganda piece.

 

[Genesis]

And this is where you are wrong. No surprise there.

No one in the B43's administration predicted that post Saddam Iraq occupation would be any sort of 'cakewalk'. There are plenty of post B43 administration books written by people who were directly involved in the immediate aftermath and not one of them said the discussions predicted an easy occupation. There were underestimation of the severity of many issues, that is a given and the worst came from high expectation for the Iraqis themselves, such as no one expected the Iraqi Army to effectively self disbanded by mass desertion, but no one actually predicted an easy occupation.

Am willing to bet that you have not read -- WITH AN OBJECTIVE MIND -- even just one of those many books.


Neither was Germany's rapid invasion and conquest of Poland. But Desert Storm set a new paradigm in warfare the same way blitzkrieg did.


Not really...Considering how they trumpeted the Korean War as a Chinese 'victory' and some believed the US 'lost' in Desert Storm, they will turn any failure, no matter how epic, into an even greater epic propaganda piece.

"The idea that it would take several hundred thousand U.S. forces I think is far off the mark," Mr. Rumsfeld said. General Shinseki gave his estimate in response to a question at a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on Tuesday

In his testimony, Mr. Wolfowitz ticked off several reasons why he believed a much smaller coalition peacekeeping force than General Shinseki envisioned would be sufficient to police and rebuild postwar Iraq. He said there was no history of ethnic strife in Iraq, as there was in Bosnia or Kosovo. He said Iraqi civilians would welcome an American-led liberation force that "stayed as long as necessary but left as soon as possible," but would oppose a long-term occupation force. And he said that nations that oppose war with Iraq would likely sign up to help rebuild it. "I would expect that even countries like France will have a strong interest in assisting Iraq in reconstruction," Mr. Wolfowitz said. He added that many Iraqi expatriates would likely return home to help.

Pentagon Contradicts General on Iraq Occupation Force's Size

Just like the Americans there are some generals in the PLA that predicted easy victory and called for reform even before the operation. But there are of course people that felt differently, they were wrong and you can't blame them. It worked for them in the past, and at the age of 50-70, how much can you really expect them to be able to change their mindset.

Today the Chinese officers are highly educated, many have also been trained and educated in the west as well to add to their experience. While some graduated from world class universities in China.

So the prediction of desert storm by some maybe wrong, but they are not there anymore and the people that replaced their successors are not the same kind of people, as are the officers waiting to replace this batch of leaders.



I said France not Poland and I said war of France and Germany not blitzkrieg. There are many battles that changed the way wars are fought in history, Desert storm is not the first and not the last. But a majority of them are between great power. Russo Japanese, 100 years war, Austro-Prussian war.

the ones fought against non powers are forgotten soon after they are done.


There are many who said Americans won in Vietnam, I guess that's why Vietnam is ruled by the south and not communist...oh wait.

All countries like to exaggerate, like WW2, how many American shows like to show that the vast majority of elite troops were defeated by the Russians and not American. That normandy while impressive and important was not as important as any of the major Russian victories.

Just because America is democratic doesn't mean it doesn't have propaganda.

 

[Slavery]

And this is where you are wrong. No surprise there.

No one in the B43's administration predicted that post Saddam Iraq occupation would be any sort of 'cakewalk'. There are plenty of post B43 administration books written by people who were directly involved in the immediate aftermath and not one of them said the discussions predicted an easy occupation. There were underestimation of the severity of many issues, that is a given and the worst came from high expectation for the Iraqis themselves, such as no one expected the Iraqi Army to effectively self disbanded by mass desertion, but no one actually predicted an easy occupation.

Am willing to bet that you have not read -- WITH AN OBJECTIVE MIND -- even just one of those many books.


Neither was Germany's rapid invasion and conquest of Poland. But Desert Storm set a new paradigm in warfare the same way blitzkrieg did.


Not really...Considering how they trumpeted the Korean War as a Chinese 'victory' and some believed the US 'lost' in Desert Storm, they will turn any failure, no matter how epic, into an even greater epic propaganda piece.

Wake me up if the US manages to beat a proper military like the PLA. We have nothing to prove to the US since we have already kicked their a$$.

The only thing the US has is regime propaganda to hype their military to keep the sheep waving that Yank flag built on slavery.

 

[gambit]

Pentagon Contradicts General on Iraq Occupation Force's Size

Just like the Americans there are some generals in the PLA that predicted easy victory and called for reform even before the operation. But there are of course people that felt differently, they were wrong and you can't blame them. It worked for them in the past, and at the age of 50-70, how much can you really expect them to be able to change their mindset.

That article is irrelevant. Just because there were disagreement on the total number of troops, that does not mean the believers of the lower figure mean the occupation would be a 'cakewalk'.

The failure of your criticism here is that the Iraqi occupation has Desert Storm as intellectual precondition for the occupation's planners. They had reasonably good ideas on the Iraqi Army's performance but they could not have predicted the mass desertion by the Iraqi Army, of which the planners relied upon to help maintain stability and order. No one, not even China, could have planned for that. Further, the bulk of the armed resistance were in major population centers throughout Iraq. This would be the same for any country because those centers are major political and economic resources. The rest of Iraq were relatively peaceful.

Today the Chinese officers are highly educated, many have also been trained and educated in the west as well to add to their experience. While some graduated from world class universities in China.

So the prediction of desert storm by some maybe wrong, but they are not there anymore and the people that replaced their successors are not the same kind of people, as are the officers waiting to replace this batch of leaders.

If the old thinking is not there, then why is this call for reform? Granted, if we look at the PLA today, we see American signatures all over. But these are technical reforms, not necessarily intellectual and philosophical regarding warfare in general and the military in particular. As it turned out, the US military became the superior student and applicator of Sun Tzu than China is.

[/b]I said France not Poland and I said war of France and Germany not blitzkrieg.[/b] There are many battles that changed the way wars are fought in history, Desert storm is not the first and not the last. But a majority of them are between great power. Russo Japanese, 100 years war, Austro-Prussian war.

It does not matter. Your attempt to downplay the intellectual significance of Desert Storm in terms of executions of the many aspects of combined arms is not inline with the rest of the world's analysts. Just because China have X millions of men-at-arms, that does not mean all of them are of the combat arms divisions. The statistics between combat and combat support have been increasing over the years as militaries and warfare evolves. It is called 'tooth to tail ratio', or T3R, and that by the Cold War, the 'tail' outnumbered the 'tooth' by 3 to 1, which is a low ratio.

Tooth-to-tail ratio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Tooth to Tail Ratio is a military term that refers to the amount of military personnel ("tail") it takes to supply and support each combat soldier ("tooth").

An army's tooth to tail ratio is often inversely related to its technological capabilities and subsequently its overall power. While an army with a high tooth to tail ratio will have more personnel devoted to combat, these soldiers will lack the support provided by the tail. Such support includes the supply and communication infrastructure on which modern armies depend. An army with a higher tooth to tail ratio may have more combat troops, but each will be less effective.

So just because the PLA may have a high T3R, higher than the US, inferior technology will have each PLA trooper at a gross disadvantage in combat. An army that have high technology sophistication and a high T3R, which is not (yet) US by the way, will be practically invincible.

Just like blitzkrieg regarding mobility and coordination of diverse units, Desert Storm forced the world's militaries to rethink on how to use the technologies at their disposals. The Iraqi Army does not need to be the world's largest in terms of overall manpower, but it was large enough that we can be confident that the PLA would not have been able to handle and as such, it was large and capable enough to make the lessons of Desert Storm significant to the PLA. This is where the Chinese members consistently failed to learn when they consistently placed their nationalism and egos over common sense and called the Iraqi Army a 'third world' military.

There are many who said Americans won in Vietnam, I guess that's why Vietnam is ruled by the south and not communist...oh wait.

You should wait and read a real book instead of Internet postings from equally ignorant and inexperience Chinese posters.

No one called Vietnam a victory for the US. But in ANY large scale armed conflict, there are two sub conflicts: political and military. The political conflict determines the objectives for the military conflict, such as take this city or valley. The political leaders will then presents those successes to the other side to persuade them to concede to the war. Even Hitler sought out a surrender when his army could have wipe out France.

In the Vietnam War, the US military dominated the military conflict, as in attacking North Vietnam from the air at will for one example. The NVA's Vo Nguyen Giap lost every major set piece engagement. He was good only at guerrilla warfare. He lost set piece battles even when fighting against the French. At Dien Bien Phu, he lost something like 5-1 against the French defenders. Objective artillery analyses by later armies criticized Giap for his ineffective exploits of his physically superior positioning in that valley.

But then again, these details must be boring to you. Hence your sarcasm to hide your ignorance and willful resistance to learning new things.

All countries like to exaggerate, like WW2, how many American shows like to show that the vast majority of elite troops were defeated by the Russians and not American. That normandy while impressive and important was not as important as any of the major Russian victories.

Just because America is democratic doesn't mean it doesn't have propaganda.

Meaningless drivel.

 

[Oldman1]

Wake me up if the US manages to beat a proper military like the PLA. We have nothing to prove to the US since we have already kicked their a$$.

The only thing the US has is regime propaganda to hype their military to keep the sheep waving that Yank flag built on slavery.

South Korea still exists. Actions speaks louder than words. Show me that the PLAN has done something truly defining.

 

[shuttler]

South Korea still exists. Actions speaks louder than words. Show me that the PLAN has done something truly defining.

so does North Korea

show us any wars that usa won in Asia despite numerous invasions after ww2

 

[Viet]

a general warns PLA...is he nuts?

Back in the 1970s Deng Xiaoping sent the PLA as canon fodder into the battlefield in Vietnam, because military generals did not follow the party. Will history repeat?