Featured General Qamar Javed Bajwa to visit Saudi Arabia next week

[Yasser76]

The current frantic activities regarding Pak-Saudi relations in the backdrop of a recent statement from the Pak Foreign minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi are indicative of deep strategic changes in global geopolitics. Given the extremely fluid global situation, this might actually be the time for both Pakistan and the KSA leaderships to have a deeper and realistic look at these relations. To start with, it is not a secret the Pak-Saudi relationship is not really based on equality and has no well-defined parameters or basis. It's based on the blind trust and deep respect shown by Pak side (due to the two holy mosques in KSA) and wishful expectations on part of KSA leadership. That was working quite well when the strategic interests of Pakistan and KSA were generally in alignment. But as the KSA leadership started behaving as a regional power in connivance with the US and Israel, the glaring cracks in the relations were quite visible. (This write-up was produced before UAE-Israel agreement but now clear signs of future global alignments are visibly taking place). Muslims the world over, Pakistanis in particular, don't really support anything linked with Israel due to the fact that Israelis are continuously and illegally occupying Aqsa mosque and have committed grave war crimes against the people of Palestine.

On top of that, Saudis have consistently been trying to dictate Pak foreign policy that is purely a delusional thinking on their part. In particular their demand from Pakistan to stay away from Iran, Turkey, and Malaysia, China, and the CPEC project makes no sense to us Pakistanis. That is even more so because of the fact that Saudis (and Emiratis) are openly supporting our arch enemy, India, despite all the past Indian aggressions against Pakistan and continued Indian genocide of the people of Indian-occupied J&K. All that is more than enough to show that KSA policies are purely based on their delusions of acting as regional power by using petro-dollars rather than factoring in the issues related to the Muslims. That is, in fact, fine with us Pakistanis because it is the right of individual countries to define their own policies the way they wish. But that is true for Pakistan too. How can then Saudis tell us to trim our relations with other countries? If you want us to factor in your sensitivities (which are mostly misplaced in any case) then you must bear our sensitivities in your mind while formulating your foreign policy.

Given the prevailing fluid geopolitics at the global level, it seems that KSA and Pakistan are opting for two opposing global blocks. It is advisable to both the countries that it is absolutely fine for them to be a part of two opposing blocks as long as a common ground between them is found and well-defined parameters are in place to guide the foreign policies visa-vis each other without getting to one an other's throat. It is very much doable and must be done in the case of Pak-Saudi relations. These parameters must define the nature of direct Pak-KSA relations (such as defining the exact role of Pak troops stationed in KSA, trade, investment, Pakistani expats, etc.) and indirect relations (such as KSA invest in India and other issues related to third party relations). The later aspect might actually be more complex to formulate. For example, we Pakistanis don't really care if KSA or UAE confer their highest civil award onto a globally disgraced criminal such as the butcher of Gujrat Modi. We believe that no medal in world can really honor a cold-blooded murderer and globally recognized criminal. Rather, quite opposite, such an act brings dishonor and disgrace to the medal itself. What objection Pakistanis might have if Saudis or Emirates are bent on bringing disgrace to their highest national reward other than feeling sad and petty for our friends. Moreover, Pakistanis cannot bother less about big Saudi plans to invest in Modi's India despite the fact that India has always been the open enemy of Muslims especially Pakistani Muslims. Expansionist and aggressive policies pursued by Indian governments have bled the Muslims of this region and elsewhere enormously. It might be mentioned that India was one of the founding members (and is still an active supporter) of takfiri gang of ISIS. But if there is a war tomorrow between India and Pakistan, Saudis must not expect from us to spare their invested interests in India from our attacks. Like any other country in world, Pakistan would try to destroy enemy's industrial base to bring the enemy to its knees. Saudis should not expect from Pakistan to spare any industrial units or infrastructure in India just because Saudis wish us to do so.

It is now evident that KSA and UAE are actively participating in the US camp. They are acting in bigger geopolitical games that are really beyond their real worth with the mentorship of USA and Israel. They are willingly getting onto a slippery slope that will take them deeper in the mess and make them increasingly more desperate as the time passes. Their mentors will be pushing and exploiting them more and more until they become useless. How could Israel and the USA be the allies of KSA when the real goal for Israelis is to establish the greater Israel with boundary near Madina.

Having said all the above, it may be advisable for Saudis to shed their knee-jerk foreign policies and be prudent while formulating these policies. Petro-dollars are having an increasingly diminished role in the global and regional geopolitics. Nation-states are now formulating policies based on their long-term national interests and not for gaining temporary minor monitory benefits. Using money for hiring state and non-state actors and use them to fight proxy wars might not be working any more. Dropping dollars in front of Pakistani, Egyptian, Sudanese, or other governments may actually backfire at them as the fire always reaches to the source of its fuel.

Extremely well written piece, if not already, you should consider contributing articles to media outlets.

Spot on about Saudi. Big economy alone does not make you a major global power, India, Germany and Japan are cases in point here. Ask why Iran has more geo political clout then any Arab nation?

Saudis will learn the limit of their power. In the past they could use the relationship with Pakistan as leverage with US. Now that leverage is gone. Saudi wholly dependent on a US/Israel security umbrella will have no one to run to when that relationship inevitably sours.

 

[batmannow]

no emotions dear
remember that
it will be unwise and very immature. keep friends and foes closer. we don't live in isolation. lets be selfish. it wont be beneficial for Pakistan to antagonize a very powerful rich and an unstable crown prince who is the defecto Ruler of KSA and give more space to India that in has got with UAE.

think of tens of thousands of poor Pakistanis that are already facing harsh and targeted treatment in the middle eastern countries. first any shia Pakistanis were targeted and kicked out of the countries and now almost every Pakistani is facing the hatred from their Arab employers. check out the pleas and requests by the Pakistani labour in Middle east who are being bullied by their employers and the authorities, who cant just leave and come to Pakistan because their families depend on them.

I do advocate self respect and dignity though and at least damage control. don't be upset that things are not in our favour and our Arab brothers are not in forgiving mood. now that's where true leadership and diplomacy shines then there is a cause to celebrate and brag about it as well.
if KSA and UAE act like China or Turkey towards us then what achievement is it by our government?

We never cared thousands of pakistanis killed by American drones but we care pakistanis working in UAE and KSA?
well best wishes to Mr bajwa, let him visit at least and hve some talks but if it comes to bowing down Israel then no problem let's sacrifice a few more pakistani lives like we did before, but stand tall and with dignity no one wants any problems with so called Arabic foolish kings but they also have to realize that they don't have enough power to dictate a huge nation to remain in the good books of uncle Sam?
It's simple, if they don't support us, we have far more brighter future ahead we, can built secret under ground gas pipe lines, feul pipe lines from Iran and can kill that dam artificial energy crisis forever?
And let, China, turkey, Malaysia invest not just money but industries?
Then build 10 times stronger military, all of these fool Arabs will be begging to meet us?
Or else, we will be governed by, riaydh, Washington, and tell Aviv jointly!

 

[Irfan Baloch]

We never cared thousands of pakistanis killed by American drones but we care pakistanis working in UAE and KSA?

very unfair, irrelevant and insensitive comparison. do consider though, the Pakistanis in UAE and KSA are still alive and are the source of bread and butter for their families back home,

well best wishes to Mr bajwa, let him visit at least and hve some talks but if it comes to bowing down Israel then no problem

Gen Bajwa has only gone to mediate and calm down our Arab master brother.
re Israel recognition, that may get out of scope of discussion but you might have already noticed the vague reaction from our foreign office. so if the Saudis make a "suggestion" then our response will be when do you want us to open the embassy?

we will do what our Arab master brother tells us , we have to oblige.after all we are owed money to KSA and have tens of thousands of Pakistani labour force trying to earn a living. all we have is a bomb and lot of resilence to take insults. what else do you think we have to offer to Arabs?

let's sacrifice a few more pakistani lives like we did before, but stand tall and with dignity no one wants any problems with so called Arabic foolish kings but they also have to realize that they don't have enough power to dictate a huge nation to remain in the good books of uncle Sam?

As for sacrificing lives is concerned my friend,

that has already happened, we did send our troops quietly as demanded for their Yemen campaign.
I know that there are other people on this forum who are aware like me that bodies have returned or just buried quietly in KSA or Yemen anyone who says otherwise is ignorant or lying.

thats why we were paid that $1.5 Billion or so by the Saudis during Nawaz time which he tried to cover as a favour by Saudis due to his personal relations. Arabs are very shrewd traders since the time of recorded history they dont do favors. it was a shut-up compensation money for the troops. Raheel Sherif didnt get a job there for refusing the troops. there was no chance to allow him in KSA and not send to jail for insulting the Royal Arabs specially when KSA passed the threats of dreadful consequences via a lower tier UAE minister. Pakistani parliament rejection of sending troops to invade Yemen during Noon league govt was just to pull wool over the eyes of Pakistanis.

It's simple, if they don't support us, we have far more brighter future ahead we, can built secret under ground gas pipe lines, feul pipe lines from Iran and can kill that dam artificial energy crisis forever?

this needs guts in our leadership and sadly I dont see any hopeful example from past or present either in military or civilian governments that have begged to differ with the saudis. our close brotherly relations with saudis on international relations and matters are very simple

Follow the instructions of Ryadh.
recall how we were forced to close the gas pipeline deal with Iran? our Arab brothers openly support select sectarian groups in Pakistan who are very vocal in their support for Daesh and Al Qaeda and their local partners. we have Daesh knocking at the doors. we havent quelled the TTP completely and Lal Masjid fitna is seething like an amber we must be ready for another round of sectarian based punishment which might spill over to general public and state as well.

only China is a balancing figure here. it might help cushion Pakistan from any Arab reprisal it has invested in Iran and brought Iran in line as well. but thats all wishful thinking only on the hypothesis that Pakistani leadership does the unthinkable and stands up to the Arab brothers and dares to speak for its national interests.

And let, China, turkey, Malaysia invest not just money but industries?
Then build 10 times stronger military, all of these fool Arabs will be begging to meet us?
Or else, we will be governed by, riaydh, Washington, and tell Aviv jointly!

again I feel like broken record. this thing to happen requires guts. Gen Bajwa didnt need to go to plead for mercy. Iran should've gone to Malaysia despite the Saudi threats.
just like UAE invited the Indian guests of Honour to the OIC summit despite our protests and boycott.

bottom line is we find ourselves in this position because we have degraded ourselves nationally and internationally that we have to apologize even if we are wronged and even if we are saying the right thing.
Saudis and Americans do have say in our international relations. its not just the military that is enough to counter the obnoxious Arabs and their mischievous Israeli partners. we need self reliance and stronger economy so much so that we no longer have our men leaving our country to do labour in the Arab land.

 

[GriffinsRule]

After reading this thread it is clear that a lot of Pakistanis are confused and afraid at the same time. For some, its urge is to keep the status quo in order to feel secure (change can be scary) and we hear don't rock the boat, we can't survive without the largess of the Saudis. On the other hand, we have some that are fed up, including me, with Pakistan and its potential being thrown away for shortsighted and short term gains.

But the issue as I see it, without the clutter, as best as I can explain it is water security. Very briefly, Pakistan has read the writing on wall, that is India will sooner than later wage a war in order to attempt to wrest control of our northern territories. Its leadership and government has publicly come out and said so as much. That means, the decades Pakistan had in which it would/could have grown into a stable, economically strong, and thus politically a force to the reckoned with has all but past. We mismanaged everything and now the time of reckoning, so to speak is fast approaching. That means status quo can not be maintained. The military definitely realizes it, as do most of the elites and the folks in government. Some might still think they have enough time to steal and run abroad before the region is really engulfed in war.

What this means now is that we are going to see Pakistan realigning itself with anyone what will stand by us, in order to help us safeguard our territorial integrity, and its realizes those countries can be counted on one hand, China, Turkey and if we play our cards right perhaps even Iran (not for any love lost, but having a large country under collapse next door is not good for anyone). I can promise everyone this, if Pakistan was to lose all of Kashmir and even other territory to India tomorrow, these Arab nations some people think of as our saviors will not even bat an eye or lose an iota of sleep over it.

So, Pakistan I feel is left with a binary choice. And I would suggest we all think about this as well. If you have to choose now (not in the distant fairy tale future while we wait to get strong and financially independent blah blah ... that time is not coming anytime soon) between Kashmir or Saudis/UAE/other Khaliji countries, what would you choose. I for one would choose Kashmir and Pakistan over any other country that stands in the way of that. I would go further ... if the choice was that any of these Arab countries were to get destroyed (like they have destroyed Syria and Yemen etc) and in return gain Kashmir, I would still go with the latter and let the ME burn.

 

[ADIL SHERDIL]

There is a chance that Pakistan might have known about Arabs shifting toward Isreal after all the deal was only signed now but it was in pipeline for sometime. My guess is that Arab would have approached Pakistan to do same.
FM SMQ statement is not of his own making, GHQ would have known and would have backed it up. Things are getting public but we still haven't seen the full picture. Coas Bajwa visit will cover many aspects which we are unaware of.
UAE changing it stance was not done in one day. How long will it take Saudi to accept Isreal? My guess is few months. After seeing the reaction of other countries. Although OIC haven't done anything productive for the Muslims so it's good for nothing.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

There is a chance that Pakistan might have known about Arabs shifting toward Isreal after all the deal was only signed now but it was in pipeline for sometime. My guess is that Arab would have approached Pakistan to do same.
FM SMQ statement is not of his own making, GHQ would have known and would have backed it up. Things are getting public but we still haven't seen the full picture. Coas Bajwa visit will cover many aspects which we are unaware of.
UAE changing it stance was not done in one day. How long will it take Saudi to accept Isreal? My guess is few months. After seeing the reaction of other countries. Although OIC haven't done anything productive for the Muslims so it's good for nothing.

I got the same hint from the foreign office contact I have. I think you also got this news from someone who knows the confidential information. Saudis had instructed UAE to start the open relations with Israel. they will follow suit soon they just wanted to see how their public consumes the news in KSA, Bahrain and UAE. rest of the Islamic world they dont really care much

 

[litman]

We never cared thousands of pakistanis killed by American drones but we care pakistanis working in UAE and KSA?
well best wishes to Mr bajwa, let him visit at least and hve some talks but if it comes to bowing down Israel then no problem let's sacrifice a few more pakistani lives like we did before, but stand tall and with dignity no one wants any problems with so called Arabic foolish kings but they also have to realize that they don't have enough power to dictate a huge nation to remain in the good books of uncle Sam?
It's simple, if they don't support us, we have far more brighter future ahead we, can built secret under ground gas pipe lines, feul pipe lines from Iran and can kill that dam artificial energy crisis forever?
And let, China, turkey, Malaysia invest not just money but industries?
Then build 10 times stronger military, all of these fool Arabs will be begging to meet us?
Or else, we will be governed by, riaydh, Washington, and tell Aviv jointly!

the underlined scenario will turn into the reality most likely. they will offer us some dollars in recognition of our services. our hstory shows that our leaders never stood up for principle. our internal corruption makes us bow infront of the whole world. even today if we want to stand for principle we simply cant. our wealth looted by our leaders is there in foreign banks and we have got nothing but to beg from IMF and other arab countries for some loans. pak is probably among the most corrupt countries in the world. how can we stand for ourselves. there are plenty of traitors in our ranks.

 

[litman]

the arabs are going to recognize israel one by one and pak will follow suit. the question is what can we get in bargain? will our leaders this time show some spine or they will prove to be another musharaf of 2001.

 

[kingQamaR]

If you join isreal, we except there annexation of Palestinians lands ignoring un resolutions on Palestinian and puts our Kashmiris resolution then in garbage. this un resolution on Kashmiris is giving us legal right of it’s occupation don’t fcking give it up I put Kashmiris lives above Palestinian stay out. weak arab monarchs are no gold standard we follow. stay quite out of it

 

[H!TchHiker]

very unfair, irrelevant and insensitive comparison. do consider though, the Pakistanis in UAE and KSA are still alive and are the source of bread and butter for their families back home,


Gen Bajwa has only gone to mediate and calm down our Arab master brother.
re Israel recognition, that may get out of scope of discussion but you might have already noticed the vague reaction from our foreign office. so if the Saudis make a "suggestion" then our response will be when do you want us to open the embassy?

we will do what our Arab master brother tells us , we have to oblige.after all we are owed money to KSA and have tens of thousands of Pakistani labour force trying to earn a living. all we have is a bomb and lot of resilence to take insults. what else do you think we have to offer to Arabs?


As for sacrificing lives is concerned my friend,

that has already happened, we did send our troops quietly as demanded for their Yemen campaign.
I know that there are other people on this forum who are aware like me that bodies have returned or just buried quietly in KSA or Yemen anyone who says otherwise is ignorant or lying.

thats why we were paid that $1.5 Billion or so by the Saudis during Nawaz time which he tried to cover as a favour by Saudis due to his personal relations. Arabs are very shrewd traders since the time of recorded history they dont do favors. it was a shut-up compensation money for the troops. Raheel Sherif didnt get a job there for refusing the troops. there was no chance to allow him in KSA and not send to jail for insulting the Royal Arabs specially when KSA passed the threats of dreadful consequences via a lower tier UAE minister. Pakistani parliament rejection of sending troops to invade Yemen during Noon league govt was just to pull wool over the eyes of Pakistanis.



this needs guts in our leadership and sadly I dont see any hopeful example from past or present either in military or civilian governments that have begged to differ with the saudis. our close brotherly relations with saudis on international relations and matters are very simple

Follow the instructions of Ryadh.
recall how we were forced to close the gas pipeline deal with Iran? our Arab brothers openly support select sectarian groups in Pakistan who are very vocal in their support for Daesh and Al Qaeda and their local partners. we have Daesh knocking at the doors. we havent quelled the TTP completely and Lal Masjid fitna is seething like an amber we must be ready for another round of sectarian based punishment which might spill over to general public and state as well.

only China is a balancing figure here. it might help cushion Pakistan from any Arab reprisal it has invested in Iran and brought Iran in line as well. but thats all wishful thinking only on the hypothesis that Pakistani leadership does the unthinkable and stands up to the Arab brothers and dares to speak for its national interests.


again I feel like broken record. this thing to happen requires guts. Gen Bajwa didnt need to go to plead for mercy. Iran should've gone to Malaysia despite the Saudi threats.
just like UAE invited the Indian guests of Honour to the OIC summit despite our protests and boycott.

bottom line is we find ourselves in this position because we have degraded ourselves nationally and internationally that we have to apologize even if we are wronged and even if we are saying the right thing.
Saudis and Americans do have say in our international relations. its not just the military that is enough to counter the obnoxious Arabs and their mischievous Israeli partners. we need self reliance and stronger economy so much so that we no longer have our men leaving our country to do labour in the Arab land.

Realistic but indeed sad state of affairs we have .. I was of the impression that Yemen was the only time we say no ..but again it seems we will continue to be slave because of economy or lack of guts whatever we would like to name it..
Nobody here seems to accepting the fact that gen Bajwa is there to console the royal and offer apology or any other name people like to wish

 

[araz]

I totally agree, but in MBS I feel we are not dealing with a level headed person. You are either totally with him or totally against him. Look at his treatment of Yemen, Turkey and Qatar. This is a man who sees compromise as a failure. Do not expect Pakistan to be made an exception. I think he will convey to us you "shut up and take our money or else". Knowing Imran Khan I can guess what the answer will be....

I think Bajwa's response will also be epic. I have voiced thic concern before and as long as we all play our cards right the Saudis have a loosing hand and somewhere along the line MBS will be talked to and pacified. He is a bit of a maverick but sooner or later life teaches people to see the world in shades of gray. It is unfair to avail the greys and blacks to your advantage but expect others to see only white. The Saudi strategy will lose out.
A

 

[alikazmi007]

Interesting article by BBC Urdu on this topic:

https://www.bbc.com/urdu/regional-53789259

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I totally agree, but in MBS I feel we are not dealing with a level headed person. You are either totally with him or totally against him. Look at his treatment of Yemen, Turkey and Qatar. This is a man who sees compromise as a failure. Do not expect Pakistan to be made an exception. I think he will convey to us you "shut up and take our money or else". Knowing Imran Khan I can guess what the answer will be....

the guy has purged his own family members. he is mentally insecure and doesn't even trust his own family.
a contact of mine a retired SSG officer who has done BG of Arabs in the past believes that the prince personal body guards are foreign mercenaries it might not be entirely true but again cant be entirely false either. we tend to look as the world in a perfect black and white but its a shade of many greys.

 

[HAIDER]

I think Bajwa's response will also be epic. I have voiced thic concern before and as long as we all play our cards right the Saudis have a loosing hand and somewhere along the line MBS will be talked to and pacified. He is a bit of a maverick but sooner or later life teaches people to see the world in shades of gray. It is unfair to avail the greys and blacks to your advantage but expect others to see only white. The Saudi strategy will lose out.
A

My next car is Hybrid electric...... rarely need to go to pump... in my neighborhood now more then 20 percent hybrid cars .. Plus , Arizona state has introduced hybrid electric battery to city fleet...

 

[HAIDER]

the guy has purged his own family members. he is mentally insecure and doesn't even trust his own family.
a contact of mine a retired SSG officer who has done BG of Arabs in the past believes that the prince personal body guards are foreign mercenaries it might not be entirely true but again cant be entirely false either. we tend to look as the world in a perfect black and white but its a shade of many greys.

It is fact, they never hire local,Palastinian or Egyptian for their security.