General Niazi: Traitor or Hero?

[saiyan0321]

i dont like niazi TBH and he didnt stay true to the slogan that we say death before surrender. He is considered a traitor amongst our awam too and TBH i myself think no less. however if you look at the facts he was outnumbered,all supply routes cut,people themselves were against the army so no local support, no air cover,constant defeats and no headway to boost morale even in west pakistan front. Navy completely defeated, karachi blockaded. In such a situation i can understand he chose the less bloody route and decided to surrender. he could have made a glorious last stand in dhaka but all that would have done was delay the inevitable and cause many deaths on both sides.
looking at it rationally its not easy too fight to the last man especially when troop morale is very low. the battle was lost the moment they blockaded the sea.... east pakistan was surrounded from all sides with india except a small portion and the sea. We werent going to cut through india to reach east pakistan, air domination over entire india to give continuous supply was also very very very tall ask. and the rest of the routes were way too long. With that the only possible way was the sea and india won that battle. In such a situation you cant exactly hope for a rescue and with supply finishing, the ,locals fighting against them and the enemy advancing every second. it was a surrender or die situation and he surrendered.

He betrayed our slogan death before surrender and he betrayed his words that dhaka will fall over his dead body. besides he was incompetent man who was given such a situation that even the most competent of generals would have found hard to cope with if not impossible. i dont think he can be truly defined as a traitor nor can he be defined as a hero.

 

[Solomon2]

He betrayed our slogan death before surrender -

Niaz also claimed - at least to Americans - that the crimes committed by Pakistani troops were in defiance of his orders. Yet he did not step down, so such a denial had no credibility.

AMEMBASSY, NEW DELHI AMEMBASSY TEHRAN USUN NEW YORK 602 USMISSION GENEVA

1. INTRODUCTION: THERE FOLLOWS ASSESSMENT OF INTERNAL POLITICAL SITUTATION BASED ON REPORTS FROM CONGENS DACCA, KARACHI AND LAHORE AND CONSULATE PESHAWAR. TEXTS OF REPORTS FROM CONGENS TRANSMITTED TO DEPARTMENT BY AlRGRAM.

2. SUMMARY: GOP'S REACTIVE MEASURES DIRECTED AT REDUCING SECESSIONIST PRESSURES IN EAST PAKISTAN HAVE FAILED TO HALT ANARCHY IN COUNTRYSIDE, TO UNDERCUT SUPPORT TO MUKTI BAHINI (BM) OR TO RESTORE EAST PAKISTAN GOVERNMENT TO ITS PRE-MARCH LEVEL OF MUDDLING-THROUGH INCOMPETENCY. SUCH POSITIVE ACTIONS OF GOP AS APPOINTMENT OF CIVIL ADMINISTRATION AND TRANSFER OF SYMBOL OF WEST PAK REPRESSION, GEN. TIKKA KHAN, HAVE BEEN UNDERMINED BY CONTINUED COLLECTIVE REPRISALS BY PAK ARMY AGAINST POPULATION AND BY NON-CONVINCING GOVERNMENTAL PERFORMANCE ON SOME STEPS SUCH AS GENERAL AMNESTY PROCLAMATION. MUKTl BAHINI GRADUALLY INCREASING SCALE OF ACTIVITY WITH FURTHER INTENSIFICATION EXPECTED IN FEW MONTHS. SECURITY CONTINUES TO DETERIORATE IN RURAL AREAS ALTHOUGH DACCA CITY RELATIVELY UNDISTURBED DURINGING MONTH...

6. DESPITE ORDERS FROM MLA CHIEF NIAZ, BURNING OF VILLAGES AND BAZAARS BY PAK MILITARY AS REPRISALS FOR MB ACTIVITY STILL TAKING, PLACE. THESE RETALIATORY ACTIONS ARE APPARENTLY INDISCRIMINATE. DACCA STATES THAT CONGEN RECEIVING SCATTERED REPORTS, MAINLY FROM MYMENSINGH, THAT ARMY PURSUES PERSECUTION OF HINDUS...

11. ON CIVIL SIDE, CONGEN REPORTS THAT GOP APPOINT- MENT CIVILIAN GOVERNOR WITH MULTI-PARTY CABINET PROCLAMATION OF GENERAL AMNESTY, ANNOUNCEMENT OF BY-ELECTIONs AND YAHYA'S AGREEMENT TO SUBMIT CONSTITUTION TO AMENDMENT PROCESS HAVE NOT CURED MALAISE OF GOEP OFFICALDOM, HALTED ABUSES BY ARMY AND POLICE, OR MOLLIFIED DISAFFECTED EAST PAK POPU- LATION. WITH MINOR EXCEPTIONS, GOEP HAS YET TO REACH PRE-MARCH LEVELS OF NORMAL ADMINISTRATIVE INCOMPETENCY. BENGALIS SKEPTICAL OVER AMNESTY AS ARRESTS CONTINUE AND FEW PERSONS OF KNOWN PROMINENCE HAVE BEEN RELEASED. MALIK AND UNIMPRESSIVE CABINET GENERALLY BELIEVED TO BE SUBSERVIENT TO EAST PAK MLA. PROSPECTS FOR POLITICAL ROLE THROUGH BY-ELECTIONS, HAS, HOWEVER, GALVANIZED THOSE POLITICIANS DEFEATED IN 1970 ELECTIONS. (SEE SUCCEEDING PARAS) ...

13. IN WEST PAKISTAN, SUPPORT FOR REGIME REMAINS ALMOST UNIVERSAL ACCORDING TO CONGENS KARACHI AND LAHORE. USUAL TENSIONS AND DISCONTENTS IN RURAL SIND AND BALUCHISTAN AND URBAN PUNJAB REMAIN BUT THEY HAVE NOT ESCALATED. CONCERNS OVER POSSIBLE WAR WITH INDIA MARKEDLY INCREASED IN LAHORE WHILE IN KARACHI PREVAILING FATALIISTIC V IEW OVER LAST SEVERAL MONTHS THAT INDO-PAK WAR INEVITABLE UNAFFECTED BY ANY ATTITUDINAL SHIFTS....

15. ON NATIONAL BASIS, REGIME'S GRAND STRATEGY OF RESURRECTING UNIFIED MUSLIM LEAGUE (ML) AS COUNTER- BALANCE TO BHUTTO PEOPLE'S' PARTY (PPP) HAS FLOUNDERED ON THOSE TRADITIONAL AND DESTRUCTIVE PAKISTANI POLITICAL CHARACTERISTICS—AMBITION AND PERSONAL ANIMOSITIES. MOMENTUM APPEARS TO HAVE SUBSIDED IN MERGER EFFORTS IN WEST PAKISTAN...

Telegram 10043 From the Embassy in Pakistan to the Department of State, October 4, 1971, 1230Z
link

 

[MastanKhan]

I have, and i haven't found a single piece of worthwhile evidence that supports this ludicrous number of 3 million. We are yet to find the bones of those killed and the seeds of those raped. Simply put, there weren't enough bullets and there was not enough time to kill 3 million people for Pakistan Army. But it appears, there are some who cling to these fallacies to support their biases and try and spread their malicious propaganda.

Sir,

Read and research what I wrote---you don't have to be defencive every time---.

Pak military did not have enough bullets to kill 3 million---the germans found out that killing by machine guns was the most wasteful and inefficient manner of killing. That is why---'supposedly' they came up with 'furnaces'.

To kill one one person----you had to fire more than 10 bullets. If there were 3 million dead---then there should have been at least 3 to five time more who had bullet wounds and survived---.

People need to do some math---how many soldiers it would need to kill how many in what time and what area with what kind of weapons---and then how many would it take to drag all those bodies to the river and dump it in----so basically---if millions of bodies have been dumped in the river flowing towards the oceans----and as dead bodies float----there must have been at least hundreds of thousand of dead bodies coming ashore some where in some country----all over the world.

To move that kind of a number of dead bodies---how many thousands of trucks and bulldozers would be used---.

You guys---don't use your sense of reasoning---use science----and prior incidences for a comparative study and reference.

You guys need to divert your research to pak GHQ---ask them how many bullets were in store in east pakistan for rifles machine guns etc----.

To kill 3 million---you would need at leas 30 million bullets on the low side 60 to a 100 million bullets on the high side---but then as I mentioned---the disposal of dead bodies---where did they go---where did they disappear.

 

[MastanKhan]

General Niazi was slapped hard by Indian Military......Pak army was defeated and was forced to surrender in Bangladesh....what a Shame for him and what a shame for Pakistan Army and Pakistan......in my opinion,he should have been shot dead in Pakistan after suffering a humiliating defeat at the hands of Indian armed forces

Sir,

It was pakistan that was slapped----it was pakistan who was defeated---the shame is for pakistan and pakistani civilians for creating situation that ended up in a split---.

So---for every military guy to be shot dead----how about 5 civilians to be put in front of the firing squad as well---and how about you and your family going out in the first round---let's see how you feel about it then.

East pakistan was a debacle created by civilians----pak military is so stupid that it can never defend its righteous actions forget about any aggression.

 

[MilSpec]

Sir,

It was pakistan that was slapped----it was pakistan who was defeated---the shame is for pakistan and pakistani civilians for creating situation that ended up in a split---.

So---for every military guy to be shot dead----how about 5 civilians to be put in front of the firing squad as well---and how about you and your family going out in the first round---let's see how you feel about it then.

East pakistan was a debacle created by civilians----pak military is so stupid that it can never defend its righteous actions forget about any aggression.

^sir, If we dwell in the root cause analysis of 1971 debacle for pakistan, there is a long list of guilty and niazi may not even figure in the list....

 

[Solomon2]

To kill 3 million---you would need at leas 30 million bullets on the low side 60 to a 100 million bullets on the high side---but then as I mentioned---the disposal of dead bodies---where did they go---where did they disappear.

Not so.

...In the table I next list a variety of democide estimates (lines 23 to 158). Some of these have to be read carefully. There were two major democides in East Pakistan, one of the Hindu and Moslem Bengalis by Pakistan; the other of the non-Bengalis (largely Urdu speaking Biharis) by the Bengalis. Estimates often do not indicate whether they cover both democides, although the source and context of an estimate may suggest that it is only for that by the Pakistan army. Moreover, some overall estimates may also include combat deaths. With this in mind, I have used various subclassifications for the estimates, including putting those that may include combat deaths under a war and democide heading (lines 170 to 178).

The sources give a number of estimates covering only part of the democide period (lines 47 to 55). I have proportionally projected these to the whole period of nine months [(9 x estimate)/(months covered by estimate)], except for two estimates that are for two months (lines 53 and 53a). Their result would have been 4,500,000 killed, obviously much too high. In any case, these I simply and conservatively tripled to cover the whole period. Regardless, the resulting low and high values (line 56) do not depend on them. The mid-value, however, is the average of all the projected estimates.

Malnutrition, disease, and exposure deaths among the refugees constituted democide. These deaths resulted directly from these pitiful people, largely Hindus, fleeing for their lives before the murderous Pakistan Army. In the table (lines 59 to 62) I give some clearly incomplete estimates of these deaths. They are low enough that I can assume they are included in the estimates of the overall democide.

Turning now to the overall estimates of the Pakistan democide (lines 65 to 79), there are two that are clearly excessively low or high (lines 65 and 79) and that I ignore in the consolidation (line 80). While any leader's admission that his country killed 50,000 people is to confess to a terrible crime, some estimate this number were killed in the first two days of massacres in Dacca alone (line 31). Casting out the unique estimate of 8,000,000 dead hardly need be defended.

Beneath the consolidated overall toll I show my calculation from the partial estimates (line 81). These are rather close. Consolidating both ranges, I give a final estimate of Pakistan's democide to be 300,000 to 3,000,000, or a prudent 1,500,000 (line 82).

Then there is Bengali massacres of non-Bengalis -

Chapter 8, Statistics Of Pakistan's Democide: Estimates, Calculations, And Sources*
By R.J. Rummel

 

[dexter]

So this shows that how confused nation we are
we still cant decide that niazi was a traitor or not

 

[Solomon2]

So this shows that how confused nation we are
we still cant decide that niazi was a traitor or not

Because you and your countrymen framed the question wrong. What constitutes treason? The soldiers committing war crimes were loyal to their oaths; that didn't make what they did any more moral or less illegal. Nuremberg settled it: human rights come before obeying orders and no officer or soldier could get off the hook via the excuse of obeying orders.

There's a time to betray oaths and commanding officers and that is the idea Pakistan's leaders have been trying to keep out of Pakistanis' heads for 40+ years.

 

[Tehmasib]

Gen Niazi said one of journalist...."" when i was in uniform you was at that time in lequid form""

 

[Secur]

@Oscar

When declaring Niazi a traitor , one should ask himself that ' at what point does the cost of winning ( even though there was no possible win scenario in that war except for military interference by China or U.S ) becomes too high a price to pay ?

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar

When declaring Niazi a traitor , one should ask himself that ' at what point does the cost of winning ( even though there was no possible win scenario in that war except for military interference by China or U.S ) becomes too high a price to pay ?

At the same time, the cost of losing must be minimized as well. Niazi did neither.. since he was too busy fornicating. The eye witness books show that apart from spending token time planning a quickfire and flawed defense.. he had no reason to care for the results.
The object of winning and defeat is not the measure of a man.. rather his commitment to his troops, to his country.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

^^

1,200 miles from home, 2,500 mile long logistic supply line by sea, Indian Army on 3 sides with Bay of Bengal behind you, 45 million very annoyed Bengalis and a army unsuited to operating in the swampy environment.

What do you? You can't exactly swim back to West Pakistan. So you fight some and than surrender. No other army could have better.

Gen. Niazi? I salute him.

A hero ...... period !

 

[Argus Panoptes]

^^

1,200 miles from home, 2,500 mile long logistic supply line by sea, Indian Army on 3 sides with Bay of Bengal behind you, 45 million very annoyed Bengalis and a army unsuited to operating in the swampy environment.

What do you? You can't exactly swim back to West Pakistan. So you fight some and than surrender. No other army could have better.

Gen. Niazi? I salute him.

A hero ...... period !

Interesting choices of words there Sir.

1,200 miles from "home"? Wasn't East Pakistan just as much of a home for our Army as West Pakistan? The geographical constraints were there since 1947 so should not have been a surprise. The swampy environment was part of our homeland, so why was our Army not suitably prepared for it in times of peace? And those were 45 million Pakistani nationals.

Pardon me Sir, but your biases are still showing.

So "fight some and then surrender" is a good policy for an "occupation" army, not a national one. No wonder those "Bengalis" fought against this occupation and won their independence.

 

[Slayer786]

Everyone get over it. India had prepared for the war 9 months in advance. It was training the bengali terrorists for a long time. It was impossible to win that war. But its over. Its history. Any country in that position would have suffered the same consequences. Lets move forward. No point discussing it as waste of time.

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

What i stated are facts, no war can be fought without resources, supply lines and reinforcement.

-------------------------

If your purpose is to troll, it will will cost you.

Resources yes. But supply line and reinforcement? I thought my hero Maj. Gen. Sherman cut off these two things in his most successful campaign. I don't know. I am a layperson. I just skimmed on internet.