General Kiyani talks abt media

[lem34]

the army in Egypt is sticking to its old ways - sure there will be an election and the MB will win and form a govt. the army wont change until it is completely 'purged'. will they allow this......will the yanks!?

We do need a purge. As I have said before I was disappointed with Mush came into power he had a window of opportunity when he was popular and people were fed up with PPP-PML see saw politics . We need to "eliminate" 1500-2000 individuals. Starting with political leaders and their families

 

[Jango]

any govt. agency involved in intell and interior security be it ISI, CIA, Mi-6, Mossad, RAW, the KGB in soviet days will continue to and have crossed the so called 'red lines' of state laws and have conducted ops which are sometimes authorised and many times not and by mind-set are not expected to be answerable until they get exposed by a 'whistle-blower'. the organisations are secretive in nature, their training such that they eliminate the target first and ask questions later. - their actions may shock and apall many but to some it is quite necessary in this murky and shadowy world which many do not understand (esp. our self righteous media) they serve a purpose for their govt / bosses and we are not aware of the 'real' stories reasons behind these actions.

Agreed that such actions take place all over the world, but people will continue to speculate, until the truth is presented.

People even gather something from a blank page, and that drawing differs person to person.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Can we criticize him and his role? Seriously everyone should stop giving examples that the US sucks up to its military so should we. The US military harms the world but provides only benefit to its people..

I must stop you right there chief....
people of Israel or USA dont go about blowing their own schools and pipelines. they dont openly advocate killing the fellow countrymen
if they do..

then the security forces of their countries will treat them the same way they treat the enemies.

when our own citizens pick up guns, explosives and meat cleavers then they loose their rights. if media or some pseudo liberals are so heart broken by the eventual treatments by the forces then the simple advice is..
dont mess with the state.

the habitual whiners of this country have a catchphrase that no other country and its security forces fights, tortures or arrests its "own people" although this statement is a great lie but if we accept that claim for the sake of the argument then the very well fitting argument is...
no other citizens of a country blow-up public and private properties and commit racial and sectarian murders like some of ours do

lets be fair and use the same yardstick and rules to criticise both sides.

Agreed that such actions take place all over the world, but people will continue to speculate, until the truth is presented.

People even gather something from a blank page, and that drawing differs person to person.

nothing wrong with that
as long as the consistency is not lost
and personal biases and hatred doesnt cloud judgement.

case in point?

Nawaz taking up a noble case of brining people (read Musharraf) to justice that are responsible for the death of Akbar Bughti
yet same Nawaz has no word of sympathy or demand for justice for the countless civilians and government personal killed by the BLA

We do need a purge. As I have said before I was disappointed with Mush came into power he had a window of opportunity when he was popular and people were fed up with PPP-PML see saw politics . We need to "eliminate" 1500-2000 individuals. Starting with political leaders and their families

both parties will love that and use the sympathy card if such brutality happens.

 

[lem34]

I


both parties will love that and use the sympathy card if such brutality happens.

The type of purge I was suggesting would leave none of them alive to play the sympathy card. They should be tried for treason and if guilty hanged.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The type of purge I was suggesting would leave none of them alive to play the sympathy card. They should be tried for treason and if guilty hanged.

they should be made politically irrelevant. and their local properties confiscated and information passed to foreign governments with sufficient proof that their fortunes were through illegal means and fall under money laundering and fraud so have them confiscated too. this will be a kind of death they will die everyday.

hanging, shooting and beheading is sooo primitive and will bleed a lot of hearts in east and west.

 

[lem34]

they should be made politically irrelevant. and their local properties confiscated and information passed to foreign governments with sufficient proof that their fortunes were through illegal means and fall under money laundering and fraud so have them confiscated too. this will be a kind of death they will die everyday.

hanging, shooting and beheading is sooo primitive and will bleed a lot of hearts in east and west.

thats a death they

Sorry my friend but that is the cost. UK had it with Cromwell, France with it's guillotines etc. You cannot make an omelette without breaking eggs. Even in exile these Pakistani leaders are a liability. We have no choice.

 

[Free Soul]

Sorry my friend but that is the cost. UK had it with Cromwell

just curious
how does Cromwell fit here?

I can understand Kamran Shafi or any other making an uneducated and historically wrong assumption that -Cromwell's boddy was dug up and hanged for good reasons and for the love of democracy- But i would not consider you less informed than mr. Shafi.

I care less if Kiyanai or Musharraf get praises or condemnations, as long as Pakistan is kept 1st and above every other thing.

 

[lem34]

just curious
how does Cromwell fit here?

I can understand Kamran Shafi or any other making an uneducated and historically wrong assumption that -Cromwell's boddy was dug up and hanged for good reasons and for the love of democracy- But i would not consider you less informed than mr. Shafi.

I care less if Kiyanai or Musharraf get praises or condemnations, as long as Pakistan is kept 1st and above every other thing.

he was one of the signatories of Charles I's death warrant and was a member of the Rump Parliament (1649–1653),

Oliver Cromwell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I was suggesting civil war and that he was involved in the extermination of members of the old order in England. The analogy that seems to be lost on you in this case is that a period of blood letting is necessary to get rid of our feudal types

 

[Awesome]

any govt. agency involved in intell and interior security be it ISI, CIA, Mi-6, Mossad, RAW, the KGB in soviet days will continue to and have crossed the so called 'red lines' of state laws and have conducted ops which are sometimes authorised and many times not and by mind-set are not expected to be answerable until they get exposed by a 'whistle-blower'. the organisations are secretive in nature, their training such that they eliminate the target first and ask questions later. - their actions may shock and apall many but to some it is quite necessary in this murky and shadowy world which many do not understand (esp. our self righteous media) they serve a purpose for their govt / bosses and we are not aware of the 'real' stories reasons behind these actions.

There are a few fundamental flaw to the logic of towing the line that "America does it, too!" - consequently the same line that Gen. Kayani used here.

1) America is not so bad at doing it. They don't get caught even if they do by their own legal system. Because if they did, there would be no escaping their own law. Presidents could not escape their law, CIA is nothing. All CIA torture facilities are in foreign countries
2) They act against foreign nationals and go out of their way to protect their own nationals. They go through great pains to build a case against their own nationals. They make sure crime scene investigation is done properly, they collect all sorts of evidence and then nail them in court. There is no ISI like "We said they are terrorist, so isn't it enough?" type arguments in their courts.
3) You're aspiring to be something wrong in the first place if you know America does something wrong, why aspire to be something wrong?

In most countries where agencies, law and executive authorities get along is where they have all kept processes, regulations and laws, supreme, more than the agencies, more than the Chief Executive.

The rumors that CIA assassinated Kennedy are alive till today and CIA still hasn't been able to wash their hands off that. CIA made 1001 attempts to kill Castro - who cares about that in America? CIA came to Pakistan, violated all sorts of international laws and killed Osama Bin Laden and took off with his body who in America cares about that? But yes if they kill Presidents, people do care about that, they can kill a thousand Osamas, but it won't justify them killing a single American.

There will be no one in America who will agree with you if you decided to give any agency the right to kill Americans without trial. In Pakistan you're arguing this right to be given to ISI, why?

 

[Solomon2]

Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani on Wednesday expressed concern over media debate vis-à-vis Army and Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) saying "the role of national institutions should not be criticised."

Spoken like the true leader of a military junta.

 

[lem34]

Spoken like the true leader of a military junta.

learned that from AIPAC run regime of Americans he did

 

[Awesome]

I must stop you right there chief....
people of Israel or USA dont go about blowing their own schools and pipelines. the dont openly advocate killing the fellow countrymen
if they do..

then the security forces of their countries will treat them the same way they treat the enemies.

when our own citizens pick up guns, explosives and meat cleavers then they loose their rights. if media or some pseudo liberals are so heart broken by the eventual treatments by the forces then the simple advice is..
dont mess with the state.

the habitual whiners of this country have a catchphrase that no other country and its security forces fights, tortures or arrests its "own people" although this statement is a great lie but if we accept that claim for the sake of the argument then the very well fitting argument is...
no other citizens of a country blow-up public and private properties and commit racial and sectarian murders like some of ours do

lets be fair and use the same yardstick and rules to criticise both sides.

I have no qualms about killing such people. For one I have always supported the killing of Bugti, he died fighting the armed forces of Pakistan - no Pakistani should fight the armed forces of Pakistan. If the armed forces come to arrest you, you should get arrested.

But it will be a whole different thing when gunmen are sent for the sole purpose of killing me and not for arresting me.

If you think someone ins Bajaur agency has is blowing up pipelines, how many arrest warrants have you served to them? You try to go in, face resistence, then you fight and the repeat cycle.

For the most part I have been in support of Op Rah-e-Rast and Rah-e-Nijat too.

But in the case recently chaired by the Chief Justice of Pakistan about missing persons it wasn't a case of bombers. There were ambulance drivers and Quran book salesmen who were beaten by the ISI to the pulp, ISI was holding them just to hide their crime of torturing the wrong people. The courts made them release the people - within days all of them were killed (silenced to not to get a chance to speak to the media).

Where I will support the military is in their military matters. But these non-military things, meddling in politics, deciding foreign policy on drones and supply routes - these are my decisions as a voter in a democracy. I will not support such violations by Kayani.

 

[lem34]

1) America is not so bad at doing it. They don't get caught even if they do by their own legal system. Because if they did, there would be no escaping their own law. Presidents could not escape their law, CIA is nothing. All CIA torture facilities are in foreign countries

Asim I have already supplied you case law from the UK. GCHQ case is clear British Judiciary will not interfere in matters of national security. But for some reason you have ignored that

2) They act against foreign nationals and go out of their way to protect their own nationals. They go through great pains to build a case against their own nationals. They make sure crime scene investigation is done properly, they collect all sorts of evidence and then nail them in court. There is no ISI like "We said they are terrorist, so isn't it enough?" type arguments in their courts.

There are instances of politically inspired cases. You know that AIPAC controls American political leaders

 

[Solomon2]

learned that from AIPAC run regime of Americans he did

Sorry, don't understand your comment here.

 

[lem34]

3) You're aspiring to be something wrong in the first place if you know America does something wrong, why aspire to be something wrong?

its not that we aspire to do something we know to be wrong. The example was given to you I think that even those countries that are further down the road of democracy and nearer to ideal system or utopia even they don't appear to challenge their security services in the manner that you wish to hold ISI accountable. Why should we a nation only 70 odd years old expect to have higher standards.

I do not judge democracy to be an absolute black and white hey today we have no democracy tomorrow we will have democracy. We are all on a path to an egalitarian star trek like utopia or perfect ideal state. But I don't believe that anyone has yet arrived.
Americans thought they were a democracy in 1960 but blacks were not entitled to vote. Women were only relatively recently allowed to vote in historical terms

In most countries where agencies, law and executive authorities get along is where they have all kept processes, regulations and laws, supreme, more than the agencies, more than the Chief Executive.

I don't think that is accurate and certainly does not apply to the UK

There will be no one in America who will agree with you if you decided to give any agency the right to kill Americans without trial. In Pakistan you're arguing this right to be given to ISI, why?

Nothing could be further from the truth. America is more or less a police state. However AIPAC and vested interest control media and brain wash their people into thinking they have freedoms they don't. Its a bit like Matrix

We're Living in a Police State